Flybe pay Talks
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Well whatever % is agreed at the end of this process will be back dated to the start of this financial year. However Flybe will be saving the interest on that sum of money, and the way things are going we will already be in the next financial year.
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Given the fact that the directors got 28.5%, i think we should be asking for more than 6.1%/5.1%. I'm not talking 28.5%, although that would be nice, maybe 10-15%, as well as a rise in FDP, disruptiuon payments etc.
The company made good profits during the worst recession since the company was formed, not to mention all the de-icing last xmas and volcanic ash. The business model obviously works, who knows how much profit we will make this year but i would bet it will be a good amount.
At the end of the day they just need to get the books looking as good as they can so they can retire rich men/women when the time comes to float. But how much is the company worth when the workforce is threatening strike action etc.
As for the xmas voucher. Remember they will give it to cancer research (and probably claim tax back on it) if you don't fill the form in and return it by tomorrow saying you want your £10.
The company made good profits during the worst recession since the company was formed, not to mention all the de-icing last xmas and volcanic ash. The business model obviously works, who knows how much profit we will make this year but i would bet it will be a good amount.
At the end of the day they just need to get the books looking as good as they can so they can retire rich men/women when the time comes to float. But how much is the company worth when the workforce is threatening strike action etc.
As for the xmas voucher. Remember they will give it to cancer research (and probably claim tax back on it) if you don't fill the form in and return it by tomorrow saying you want your £10.
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Turnover maintained at £570.5 million (2008/09 £572.4 million).
One of only three European major airlines to report profits throughout the global recession, with profit before tax* of £6.8 million (2008/09: £12.8 million). Profit before tax, after exceptional, integration and restructuring items, of £5.7 million (2008/09 £0.1 million).
EBITDAR** up 4.7% to £93.8 million (2008/09: £89.6 million) and EBITDAR margin increased to 16.4% (2008/09: 15.7%).
Ancillary revenues per passenger increased by 15.9% to £11.98 per passenger (2008/09 £10.34)
Operating cash inflow before restructuring of £50.9 million generated in the year (2008/09: £31.4 million).
Net debt more than halved to £21.0 million (2008/09: £49.8 million).
So, in addition to a profit of £5.7m, there was enough other "non-profit, profit" to pay off £29m of debt! Doesn't sound like a business that's on it's arse and can't afford a reasonable payrise for it's employees.
If they would just treat us and our elected representatives with some respect it would be a start. Perhaps from there we could negotiate like professionals and avoid the need for embarrassing industrial action.
I'm glad to see that finally pilots have woken up and smelt the coffee. There is real anger in the crewrooms now. Time for Jim and co to wake up to the new mood.
One of only three European major airlines to report profits throughout the global recession, with profit before tax* of £6.8 million (2008/09: £12.8 million). Profit before tax, after exceptional, integration and restructuring items, of £5.7 million (2008/09 £0.1 million).
EBITDAR** up 4.7% to £93.8 million (2008/09: £89.6 million) and EBITDAR margin increased to 16.4% (2008/09: 15.7%).
Ancillary revenues per passenger increased by 15.9% to £11.98 per passenger (2008/09 £10.34)
Operating cash inflow before restructuring of £50.9 million generated in the year (2008/09: £31.4 million).
Net debt more than halved to £21.0 million (2008/09: £49.8 million).
So, in addition to a profit of £5.7m, there was enough other "non-profit, profit" to pay off £29m of debt! Doesn't sound like a business that's on it's arse and can't afford a reasonable payrise for it's employees.
If they would just treat us and our elected representatives with some respect it would be a start. Perhaps from there we could negotiate like professionals and avoid the need for embarrassing industrial action.
I'm glad to see that finally pilots have woken up and smelt the coffee. There is real anger in the crewrooms now. Time for Jim and co to wake up to the new mood.
Last edited by Too Little too late; 21st Oct 2010 at 10:58. Reason: Tidy up
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... Maybe somebody can confirm this one too...
Haven't the Cabin Crew agreed with Untie that their pay deal will equal the pilots pay deal if it is more than they were offered?
Could it possibly be that maybe, this 5.1%/6.1% increase will have a reprecussion across the entire of the Flight Crew of the company?
Holding on for the 5.1%/6.1% increase is the right course of action. We, as flight crew, for this airline, are very underpaid.
As someone I knows girlfriend says: "A hairdresser earns more than you do".
I'm glad to see that it has got to Stage 3 - this is also about showing the company that we are prepared to fight for any future changes in T&Cs.
Haven't the Cabin Crew agreed with Untie that their pay deal will equal the pilots pay deal if it is more than they were offered?
Could it possibly be that maybe, this 5.1%/6.1% increase will have a reprecussion across the entire of the Flight Crew of the company?
Holding on for the 5.1%/6.1% increase is the right course of action. We, as flight crew, for this airline, are very underpaid.
As someone I knows girlfriend says: "A hairdresser earns more than you do".
I'm glad to see that it has got to Stage 3 - this is also about showing the company that we are prepared to fight for any future changes in T&Cs.
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Too little too late,
First up, I tend to agree that if the directors have given themselves a 20%+ pay rise, then they really, really should be addressing what is very poor pay for the crews, even in current circumstances. That's just straight unforgivable.
However, with respect, your analysis of their financial results is very naive. Using a £5.9m pre tax profit as evidence of why they should give a big payrise (paragraph 1 not withstanding) is absolutely green.
A) 5.9m as a % of 570m turnover is just over 1% (assuming reported figures are accurate). That is NOT the profit margin of a company that is absolutely tickety boo, it's the profit margin of a company that is barely staying alive. It's indicative of how bad the industry is at the moment that this one of only three that made a profit at all.
B) Nice Mr Taxman will be coming along and asking for a slice of that £5.9m
C) I don't know how many flight crew BE employ, but pay rises across an entire employee class gets very expensive, very quickly. [That said, if BE have 500 crew, it's a fair bet that the directors increases alone would fund a £1000 pa rise - and on BE salaries, that would be very worth having i'd think!]
First up, I tend to agree that if the directors have given themselves a 20%+ pay rise, then they really, really should be addressing what is very poor pay for the crews, even in current circumstances. That's just straight unforgivable.
However, with respect, your analysis of their financial results is very naive. Using a £5.9m pre tax profit as evidence of why they should give a big payrise (paragraph 1 not withstanding) is absolutely green.
A) 5.9m as a % of 570m turnover is just over 1% (assuming reported figures are accurate). That is NOT the profit margin of a company that is absolutely tickety boo, it's the profit margin of a company that is barely staying alive. It's indicative of how bad the industry is at the moment that this one of only three that made a profit at all.
B) Nice Mr Taxman will be coming along and asking for a slice of that £5.9m
C) I don't know how many flight crew BE employ, but pay rises across an entire employee class gets very expensive, very quickly. [That said, if BE have 500 crew, it's a fair bet that the directors increases alone would fund a £1000 pa rise - and on BE salaries, that would be very worth having i'd think!]
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There are, I believe, about 700 pilots at Flybe.
Average salary is roughly 45,000.
D8 f/o - 25,000
D8 Capt - 54,000
195 f/o- 38,000
195 Capt - 60,000
Basic salaries there or thereabouts.
10% pay rise is roughly a total of £3,100,000
5% - about £1,600,000
2% - £630,000
0.2% - £63,000
The 0.2% is a disgusting joke, the 2% aint much better.
I'm sure somebody could easily work out the total pay rises (28%) of the directors for comparison.
Average salary is roughly 45,000.
D8 f/o - 25,000
D8 Capt - 54,000
195 f/o- 38,000
195 Capt - 60,000
Basic salaries there or thereabouts.
10% pay rise is roughly a total of £3,100,000
5% - about £1,600,000
2% - £630,000
0.2% - £63,000
The 0.2% is a disgusting joke, the 2% aint much better.
I'm sure somebody could easily work out the total pay rises (28%) of the directors for comparison.
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Correct me if I am wrong, but that 28% pay rise the directors gave themselves was from the same year everybody else in the company had to take a pay freeze because there was no money in the pot?? They really are taking the piss!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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5rings
I think you've totally misunderstood what i was saying. The results posted are remarkable given the economic climate. However the point i was making is that [remarkable as it is to have made ANY profit] it is not the kind of profit where the company can just say "right, 25% across the board it is then"
That said, it IS very wrong (IMHO) that the directors have found another 25% or whatever for themselves, whilst everyone else is on poor pay for the industry.
That said, I have no doubt FlyBE remains one of the most stable and financially secure companies in aviation to work for.
I think you've totally misunderstood what i was saying. The results posted are remarkable given the economic climate. However the point i was making is that [remarkable as it is to have made ANY profit] it is not the kind of profit where the company can just say "right, 25% across the board it is then"
That said, it IS very wrong (IMHO) that the directors have found another 25% or whatever for themselves, whilst everyone else is on poor pay for the industry.
That said, I have no doubt FlyBE remains one of the most stable and financially secure companies in aviation to work for.
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A few key points on the accounts to help the debate along (2010 refers to the year to March 2010: 2009 to the year to March 2009)
Hope this helps guys. Sorry if it’s a bit “accounting” but in summary 2010 was a much much better year than is apparent from a first view of the figures ! Also remember what a positive outlook was given in the press release for 2010-11
Best of luck in your "negotiations"
- Turnover (ie sales) was broadly the same at £570.5m (2009 : £572.4m)
- There are various ways that accountants and analysts look at profit. I summarise the 3 most relevant ones which give the best picture of how the co has performed
- Operating profit from continuing operations is shown in the accounts at £8.2m (2009: £6.1m ) – a 34% increase. In fairness however this isn’t a true picture as 2009 had some very big “exceptional” costs relating to integration, aircraft impairment costs which reduced that years profit – which thus somewhat flatters 2010
- However most airline businesses use a measure called EBITDAR (earnings before interest, tax, depreciation , amortisation and aircraft rents payable – excluding exceptional items). This gives by far the best view of underlying performance In the flybe press release of 20th September 2010 this EBITDAR figure is quoted as being up 4.7% to £93.8m (2009 :: £89.6m). This indicates a very creditable performance in a difficult market BUT I really think it’s been calculated incorrectly (see below)
- Without wanting to get too much into accounting speak, I think the calculation of the “amortisation” bit has been cocked up for 2009. I reckon that the 2010 EBITDAR is c£93m, but that the 2009 EBITDAR is actually only £72m. If so this represents a fairly whopping 29% increase in underlying profit. I may be wrong on this: but I really really don’t think so.
- This increase in (the correctly calculated) EBITDAR is absolutely supported by the cash inflow from operations which is £50.9m compared to £31.4m in 2009. Cash is king and this in conjunction with EBITDAR is the best measure of what a good year flybe had.
- I suspect undoubtedly that the performance has been boosted by the Greek tie up, but details of the profit aren’t given.
- Total Directors pay went up by 28.5% (from £1.4m to £1.8m) on an unchanged Board off Directors (is it a coincidence that this is about the same % as the increase in the EBITDAR if my views on its calculation is correct?). Highest paid Directors pay went up from £0.5m to £0.6m – 20% increase.
- Average pay of all staff (note 7) went up 0.3% . This actually includes the Directors and if they’re taken out I reckon the average pay per person actually went down by c 3% (clearly people come and go – but it’s a clue
Hope this helps guys. Sorry if it’s a bit “accounting” but in summary 2010 was a much much better year than is apparent from a first view of the figures ! Also remember what a positive outlook was given in the press release for 2010-11
Best of luck in your "negotiations"
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Hi Guys and Girls
Sorry hav'nt really been reading all this thread so tell me to shut up if it has already been mentioned but have you considered a pay rise in your sector pay or adding a flight pay per sector payment. This saves the company N.I. payments and an increase in pension contributions based on your salary. Take home pay vastly increases but other items ie company pension contributions, LOL, death in service remains the same. Just a thought.
Cheers.
Sorry hav'nt really been reading all this thread so tell me to shut up if it has already been mentioned but have you considered a pay rise in your sector pay or adding a flight pay per sector payment. This saves the company N.I. payments and an increase in pension contributions based on your salary. Take home pay vastly increases but other items ie company pension contributions, LOL, death in service remains the same. Just a thought.
Cheers.
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Clanger32,
perhaps you'd like to read my post again before giving me the "naive" and "green" labels.
I can work out percentages quite nicely, ta.
I was referring to the fact that the company has generated enough cash to pay off a huge amount of debt. If it were to perform as well next year nearly £50m of debt would have been cleared in 2 years and the profit next year would be even greater. Imagine the profit the following year having cleared all the debts. My point is that £5.9m or whatever is not the story here. It's the bigger picture that needs to be seen - not just the headline profit that they've decided to put out.
I realise that cash can be generated in other ways than sales revenue, but if the "family" could have gotten their money back by offloading assets I'm sure they would have done this earlier.
perhaps you'd like to read my post again before giving me the "naive" and "green" labels.
I can work out percentages quite nicely, ta.
I was referring to the fact that the company has generated enough cash to pay off a huge amount of debt. If it were to perform as well next year nearly £50m of debt would have been cleared in 2 years and the profit next year would be even greater. Imagine the profit the following year having cleared all the debts. My point is that £5.9m or whatever is not the story here. It's the bigger picture that needs to be seen - not just the headline profit that they've decided to put out.
I realise that cash can be generated in other ways than sales revenue, but if the "family" could have gotten their money back by offloading assets I'm sure they would have done this earlier.
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So out of curiosity what is the general feeling if the company come back with a 3% or 4% offer?
Roll over...again and accept the standard line of "we can't afford anymore than that...honest!"
Push for 5% only, or go for more than that?
Bearing in mind that JF was able to give himself a 25% rise because everyone else took a pay freeze.
It's time to turn the screws even further is it not?
Roll over...again and accept the standard line of "we can't afford anymore than that...honest!"
Push for 5% only, or go for more than that?
Bearing in mind that JF was able to give himself a 25% rise because everyone else took a pay freeze.
It's time to turn the screws even further is it not?
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For those wishing to emulate the directors' pay, be very careful what you wish for. Last year, when we were on a pay freeze, the directors took a double-digit pay cut. Seems to have slipped everybody's attention.
If you want to volunteer for a double digit pay cut on your miserly pay, carry on fools. For those whining that they can't afford to live on their current wage, imagine how much worse it would be with a 14% pay cut before taking into account the effect of inflation making it worse.
And as for all the guff about not paying market rate, might I suggest a basic economics lesson. Market rate is determined by supply and demand, and as the company is not struggling to obtain a healthy supply of pilots, it doesn't need to improve the price. Tough but true.
Until this changes, JF and his team will not be putting up the price. Whinging costs the company nothing, and until the moany workforce finally put their money where their mouths are, nothing will change, and even then the company will play it out to the last possible moment to minimise their costs.
Rather than moan about the management, why not moan about your ineffectual BALPA reps. You voted for them, and continue to keep them as your reps, so if they aren't delivering, do something about it. Changing your BALPA rep is something you can influence, and it may finally pay you dividends.
If you want to volunteer for a double digit pay cut on your miserly pay, carry on fools. For those whining that they can't afford to live on their current wage, imagine how much worse it would be with a 14% pay cut before taking into account the effect of inflation making it worse.
And as for all the guff about not paying market rate, might I suggest a basic economics lesson. Market rate is determined by supply and demand, and as the company is not struggling to obtain a healthy supply of pilots, it doesn't need to improve the price. Tough but true.
Until this changes, JF and his team will not be putting up the price. Whinging costs the company nothing, and until the moany workforce finally put their money where their mouths are, nothing will change, and even then the company will play it out to the last possible moment to minimise their costs.
Rather than moan about the management, why not moan about your ineffectual BALPA reps. You voted for them, and continue to keep them as your reps, so if they aren't delivering, do something about it. Changing your BALPA rep is something you can influence, and it may finally pay you dividends.
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Funny Otto
Maybe on Planet Zorg where you come from you can see someone suggesting a 28% pay increase for pilots, but I can't see it anywhere.
I do agree with you about BALPA though, maybe we need to look closer to home as to why we're getting nowhere with this pay deal. They keep spouting about how we have new people on the committee and it's a fresh start etc, but the same person is running the chocolate factory. Herein could lie the problem. My subscription is ready to leave BALPA's bank account so fast they won't even get a glimpse of it on the way out.
Maybe on Planet Zorg where you come from you can see someone suggesting a 28% pay increase for pilots, but I can't see it anywhere.
I do agree with you about BALPA though, maybe we need to look closer to home as to why we're getting nowhere with this pay deal. They keep spouting about how we have new people on the committee and it's a fresh start etc, but the same person is running the chocolate factory. Herein could lie the problem. My subscription is ready to leave BALPA's bank account so fast they won't even get a glimpse of it on the way out.
Last edited by Coffin Corner; 22nd Oct 2010 at 18:41.
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Guys take another look at the figures in post 34.
Flybe are mocking you, openly, blatantly and without remorse.
With those figures in mind it is NOT unreasonable to be asking for at least 10%.
I don't know if any of you have bothered to work it out but if only half of the pilot work force at Flybe are paying Balpa 1% of the average salary (about 45K) that works out at over ONE HUNDRED AND FIFTY SEVEN THOUSAND POUNDS. And what, exactly, have Balpa done to deserve that? It is time to make them work for you, right now.
Guys, do not lie back and think of England this time. Flybe are in rude financial health no doubt about that. It's time to take your piece of the profit for a change, and it's about time.
Flybe are mocking you, openly, blatantly and without remorse.
With those figures in mind it is NOT unreasonable to be asking for at least 10%.
I don't know if any of you have bothered to work it out but if only half of the pilot work force at Flybe are paying Balpa 1% of the average salary (about 45K) that works out at over ONE HUNDRED AND FIFTY SEVEN THOUSAND POUNDS. And what, exactly, have Balpa done to deserve that? It is time to make them work for you, right now.
Guys, do not lie back and think of England this time. Flybe are in rude financial health no doubt about that. It's time to take your piece of the profit for a change, and it's about time.
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I have faith in the BALPA reps on this issue.
The main problem with FlyBE would be that in the past, the company traditionally has had a rapid turnaround of pilots. The result is that for every Captain or FO who leaves the company, there would be a non-stop stream of pilots on tap from the flight schools and FOs ready for the upgrade from within the ranks.
This recession has effectively blighted the entire issue now though - for the last 2 1/2 years, the work force has remained more or less the same, and as a result, people are not progressing through the payscales at the rate that the company intended. So we have a situation whereby a lot of pilots, who either would have moved on, gone onto the jet, got commands etc... have been stuck in rank. As a result, all that has really happened is that we have crawled rather slowly up the ranks of the payscale... Now, as FlyBE has always had that rapid form of pilot recruitment in its mind, it now faces a problem with a largely discontented workforce, who cannot move anywhere (Turboprop hours not counting, no other airlines recruiting etc...). As a result, it's high time the company addressed this issue.
As a pilot, I do enjoy the work for the airline. The routes are varied, the crews are good fun, and the Dash is a tart to fly. I'm sure most of the other crews feel the same about this. FlyBE has the potential to be a great career airline for those that want it. But at the moment, it is very much stuck in the regional UK mentality.
The results that PaulJ1957 posted are incredibly interesting. It does show a company that are performing ahead of all expectations throughout the recession. The money made in Greece is clearly tied up in the complicated terms, with the hope that it will be overlooked. But with the analysis there, it can be seen that actually, if the pre-tax profit is only £5.7 million, there is probably quite a lot more locked up in and hidden away in EBITDAR.
Just my two cents on this... It will be interesting to see what BALPA do about it.
The main problem with FlyBE would be that in the past, the company traditionally has had a rapid turnaround of pilots. The result is that for every Captain or FO who leaves the company, there would be a non-stop stream of pilots on tap from the flight schools and FOs ready for the upgrade from within the ranks.
This recession has effectively blighted the entire issue now though - for the last 2 1/2 years, the work force has remained more or less the same, and as a result, people are not progressing through the payscales at the rate that the company intended. So we have a situation whereby a lot of pilots, who either would have moved on, gone onto the jet, got commands etc... have been stuck in rank. As a result, all that has really happened is that we have crawled rather slowly up the ranks of the payscale... Now, as FlyBE has always had that rapid form of pilot recruitment in its mind, it now faces a problem with a largely discontented workforce, who cannot move anywhere (Turboprop hours not counting, no other airlines recruiting etc...). As a result, it's high time the company addressed this issue.
As a pilot, I do enjoy the work for the airline. The routes are varied, the crews are good fun, and the Dash is a tart to fly. I'm sure most of the other crews feel the same about this. FlyBE has the potential to be a great career airline for those that want it. But at the moment, it is very much stuck in the regional UK mentality.
The results that PaulJ1957 posted are incredibly interesting. It does show a company that are performing ahead of all expectations throughout the recession. The money made in Greece is clearly tied up in the complicated terms, with the hope that it will be overlooked. But with the analysis there, it can be seen that actually, if the pre-tax profit is only £5.7 million, there is probably quite a lot more locked up in and hidden away in EBITDAR.
Just my two cents on this... It will be interesting to see what BALPA do about it.
