'Fixed retirement age to be axed'
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'Fixed retirement age to be axed'
It's been announced today that the Government plan to scrap the default retirement age by October 2011.
Do you think that this is likely to effect commercial aviation? The last change allowing pilotsd over the age of 60 to act as PIC had an the effect of slowing down progression within the junior levels of airlines. Do you think many people (for whatever reason) would want to stay longer than 65?
Currently the Air Naviagation Order has a statuted upper age limit on flying:
[CAP 393, The Air Naviagation Order; Schedule 7, Part A, Sub-section 1]
Do you think that this is likely to effect commercial aviation? The last change allowing pilotsd over the age of 60 to act as PIC had an the effect of slowing down progression within the junior levels of airlines. Do you think many people (for whatever reason) would want to stay longer than 65?
Currently the Air Naviagation Order has a statuted upper age limit on flying:
The holder must not at any time after attaining the age of 65 years act as pilot in
command or co-pilot of any aeroplane on a flight for the purpose of commercial air
transport or public transport.
command or co-pilot of any aeroplane on a flight for the purpose of commercial air
transport or public transport.
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This was inevitable. Why should somebody who is fit and healthy one day be deemed unsuitable to act as PIC the next? As long as you are physically and mentally fit enough to hold a Class 1 then you should be able to continue beyond 65.
I have several colleagues approaching 65 who are much fitter than guys half their age. That said, I'm jacking in all in at 60 if I can.
I have several colleagues approaching 65 who are much fitter than guys half their age. That said, I'm jacking in all in at 60 if I can.
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I saw the effects of moving the retirement age from 60 to 65. It certainly slowed down progression for younger pilots and for some was quite infuriating, BUT to stay on after 60 was that particular individuals prerogative. Do I agree? Not really but that's the situation.
If the retirement age was relaxed completely, then it would certainly suit some, but I would have grave reservations. I have seen first hand the reduction in mental capacity and reaction time from some more 'senior' pilots. It is a fine balance between this and the advantages of their extensive experience.
If I was a betting person, I would say that it will be down to an AME to decide, however we all know AME's that will sign a certificate BEFORE they have examined the individual.
I do feel that there are certain jobs that REQUIRE an upper age limit, ours being one of them. Working in B&Q is not exactly the same.
If the retirement age was relaxed completely, then it would certainly suit some, but I would have grave reservations. I have seen first hand the reduction in mental capacity and reaction time from some more 'senior' pilots. It is a fine balance between this and the advantages of their extensive experience.
If I was a betting person, I would say that it will be down to an AME to decide, however we all know AME's that will sign a certificate BEFORE they have examined the individual.
I do feel that there are certain jobs that REQUIRE an upper age limit, ours being one of them. Working in B&Q is not exactly the same.
I do feel that there are certain jobs that REQUIRE an upper age limit, ours being one of them. Working in B&Q is not exactly the same.
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Daily Telegraph:
"The consultation also makes it clear that individual employers – such as air traffic control and police forces – will be allowed to operate a compulsory retirement age as long as they can justify it objectively."
"The consultation also makes it clear that individual employers – such as air traffic control and police forces – will be allowed to operate a compulsory retirement age as long as they can justify it objectively."
I think the notion of a mandatory retirement age is quite odd, I have known pilots in the airlines and the military, who should have given it up years before they were anywhere near 60 and also several who are well past that age who are physically and medically fit and who can still show the younger guys a thing or two.
If you dig deep enough you'll find that the original impetus for the "Age 60 rule" came about when an airline CEO was trying to get rid of a troublesome pilot who was approaching age 60. Said CEO had friends high up in the relevant regulator and the rule was invented and somewhat fictitious phyiological conditions promoted to justify it.
Regards,
BH.
If you dig deep enough you'll find that the original impetus for the "Age 60 rule" came about when an airline CEO was trying to get rid of a troublesome pilot who was approaching age 60. Said CEO had friends high up in the relevant regulator and the rule was invented and somewhat fictitious phyiological conditions promoted to justify it.
Regards,
BH.
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This debate is of course the main topic on the Canada thread, to my dismay it has not set a very high standard of civility.I am still flying in my 72nd year, I fly only two crew with pax/ IFR and use the time to give deserving kids multi time/real world experience and a decent pay cheque. When I looked after the loss of lic stats for our union it came as quite a shock to find that the peak period for medical loss/death was at that time, between the ages of 33 and 52, have no idea what the stats are these days. For myself I just cant imagine wanting to work for a big corporation all my life, but some dont want to leave the womb, most of those wishing to stay seem to have bought a few houses for folks they no longer sleep with . There is no question this will further slow promotion in the ranks.I think one has to be very frank with oneself and when the time comes, pull the pin, its a debate I have with myself on a regular basis, but I try not to talk to myself in public!
A new medical?
I think it is inevitable that "fixed" ages are going to be challenged and will go the way of the dodo. The idea you are OK one day, then two days later after a birthday you are no longer competent just does not make sense.
What is going to be needed is a revised medical, really more series of ability tests, that will track a persons performance, mental and physical, at tasks that relate to the the job at hand.
Someone is going to have to set a threshold and that is going to be the hard part. No matter where you set the number someone is going to say, is there any real difference between a score of 599 and 601 with the threshold set at 600. Probably not but what do you do?
I'd sugest one way to deal with it is to conduct the tests at a regular intervals and track the rate of change. If it becomes clear some one is on the back side of the curve maybe that is when you pull the plug.
At one time I think Transport Canada was looking at doing something similar but gave it up as they could not get a handle on it. I do know the New York Transit agency once had screening that tested train operators reactions at sign in.The idea was to use this to screen out people who should not be at work that day, often due to fatigue. The system was scrapped in favor of pretty useless drug screening.
It will be interesting to see what develops.
20driver
What is going to be needed is a revised medical, really more series of ability tests, that will track a persons performance, mental and physical, at tasks that relate to the the job at hand.
Someone is going to have to set a threshold and that is going to be the hard part. No matter where you set the number someone is going to say, is there any real difference between a score of 599 and 601 with the threshold set at 600. Probably not but what do you do?
I'd sugest one way to deal with it is to conduct the tests at a regular intervals and track the rate of change. If it becomes clear some one is on the back side of the curve maybe that is when you pull the plug.
At one time I think Transport Canada was looking at doing something similar but gave it up as they could not get a handle on it. I do know the New York Transit agency once had screening that tested train operators reactions at sign in.The idea was to use this to screen out people who should not be at work that day, often due to fatigue. The system was scrapped in favor of pretty useless drug screening.
It will be interesting to see what develops.
20driver
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Surely the point here is that the government is going to raise the age at which you can receive a state pension, and that if you were forced out of work at 65 their would be a gap before you received this state pension. It cannot be assumed that people have occupational or private pensions to bridge the gap.
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Good point bizdev, but I'm thinking specifically about our industry; and it's highly unlikely that an airline pilot today will only have the state pension to look forward to.
Whilst, from next year, everyone will have the right to work beyond the age of 65, is ours not an industry where a upper age limit is appropriate?
Whilst, from next year, everyone will have the right to work beyond the age of 65, is ours not an industry where a upper age limit is appropriate?
As those of us in the single-pilot AT world (police, air ambulance, lighthouse support, etc) are even more severely discriminated-against than the rest of the commercial pilot 'community', I would love to see an end to arbitrary ageism. However, I'd have to say that in the light of the recent successful defence in the courts by the Committee Against Aviation of their current policy then I wouldn't hold your breath for any change soon. Oh, and don't expect BALPA to be of any help - they certainly weren't with our campaign despite happily taking the fees off us for several years.
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Perfect! The aviation generation that has had it all there own way, big military spending, sponsorships, massive expansion bringing early commands, gold plated final salary pension schemes kicking in at 55 or 60, has decided to move the goalposts again to pay for all the ex-wives.
And the legacy? Biggest peacetime economic slowdown in memory, pilots paying the airlines to fly, and a generation destined to pay off the debts of the previous.
Pull the ladder up behind you Gramps, thanks!
And the legacy? Biggest peacetime economic slowdown in memory, pilots paying the airlines to fly, and a generation destined to pay off the debts of the previous.
Pull the ladder up behind you Gramps, thanks!
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Well put,
I know most of the senior Captains would stay on till they croak and we all know the medicals are a complete joke so without a forced retirement age there will be a SERIOUS pilot shortage since all the good aviation jobs will have zero turnover and knowone will make a career out of working crappy jobs.
Pilot shortage is a myth perpetuated by senior members of pilot unions that got there first jobs with major airlines at 1200 hours and had to fly NDB circling approaches to BFE while now the average applicant for a second rate carrier tops 5000 hr + and your dispatcher will divert you to another airport if the ILS is OTS.
I don't blame the senior capts for staying on as long as they can either since they get the choice routes and the easiest work schedules but please spare me with this 'pilot shortage' bs.
I know most of the senior Captains would stay on till they croak and we all know the medicals are a complete joke so without a forced retirement age there will be a SERIOUS pilot shortage since all the good aviation jobs will have zero turnover and knowone will make a career out of working crappy jobs.
Pilot shortage is a myth perpetuated by senior members of pilot unions that got there first jobs with major airlines at 1200 hours and had to fly NDB circling approaches to BFE while now the average applicant for a second rate carrier tops 5000 hr + and your dispatcher will divert you to another airport if the ILS is OTS.
I don't blame the senior capts for staying on as long as they can either since they get the choice routes and the easiest work schedules but please spare me with this 'pilot shortage' bs.
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Too Low Flaps ,Hogwash! When I was hired there had been no hiring at TCA/Air Canada in fourteen years, all on course had 5000 hours plus and had been flying in every ****hole around the world to stay in a job, my wife and I lived in three different countries to stay employed. Having said that I can only agree with you that this will slow up employment and promotion for the younger set,when it comes to the P2F crap I just cant figure how the EU which seem to want make a perfect world from the size of tomatoes on up, can allow this stuff.
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Some pilots are well suited to fly to their late sixties, others are not. How do you draw the line? Either you compromise and pick a fixed age limit or you find other ways to assess invidividual pilot's suitability. The latter will cost more money.
Screening for Altzheimer's etc. and assessment of psychomotoric fitness should at least be the norm for any applicant for class 1 medical over 60 (or whichever limit you choose) years of age. Sim checks are inadequate as one can often pass them routinely.
Most pilots will at some point of their careers fly with colleagues who shouldn't be flying anymore. The experience is usually not pleasant. I find the argument of possessing class 1 medical and having "right to work" unsettling, as the medical exam as of now does not cover for many age related issues. Also one is often unable to assess his performance objectively.
I welcome our senior colleagues to flight deck, but at some point of our lives the experience no longer outweights the ability and at that point latest the pilot must be let go. Either by enforcing a conservative age limit or by monitoring invidividual's mental and physical fitness at regular intervals more thoroughly than we do now.
Screening for Altzheimer's etc. and assessment of psychomotoric fitness should at least be the norm for any applicant for class 1 medical over 60 (or whichever limit you choose) years of age. Sim checks are inadequate as one can often pass them routinely.
Most pilots will at some point of their careers fly with colleagues who shouldn't be flying anymore. The experience is usually not pleasant. I find the argument of possessing class 1 medical and having "right to work" unsettling, as the medical exam as of now does not cover for many age related issues. Also one is often unable to assess his performance objectively.
I welcome our senior colleagues to flight deck, but at some point of our lives the experience no longer outweights the ability and at that point latest the pilot must be let go. Either by enforcing a conservative age limit or by monitoring invidividual's mental and physical fitness at regular intervals more thoroughly than we do now.
someone who is 70 surely more likely to drop dead that a 30 year old?
I read recently that the highest risk age group for heart attack is between 50 and 60 years, glad it's my birthday in October!