Hope for the new guys - The first shoots
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Re. Dreamshiner comment
My own research into them was they charged £6 for an unemployed/student member, I would imagine they would look for a similar percentage of the salary as BALPA for those working.
In fact the full membership rate for employed members is as follows:
Category 1 (Full IPA/IPF) £14 monthly.
Welcome to the IPA
As far as BALPA being the only choice available is concerned - It was Mandy Rice-Davis who once said 'They would say that wouldn't they?'
Just have a look, no outlandish promises, posted in the interests of a balanced view.
In fact the full membership rate for employed members is as follows:
Category 1 (Full IPA/IPF) £14 monthly.
Welcome to the IPA
As far as BALPA being the only choice available is concerned - It was Mandy Rice-Davis who once said 'They would say that wouldn't they?'
Just have a look, no outlandish promises, posted in the interests of a balanced view.
Last edited by Dartsinsync; 16th Feb 2010 at 09:05.
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...more concerned about the colour of the toilet paper in a BA social club.
I'll repeat - BALPA's real agenda is set locally by its members. The CCs are the guys who negotiate on behalf of the company's membership. Dreamshiner, your beef has to be with your CC and your colleagues higher up the tree. Also, don't forget, a union is not there to represent non-members. So if the bottom-feeding muppets aren't members, they won't have a say.
PM
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Chuffer Chadley and others - BALPA IS all we have got. The IPA/IPF are undoubtedly sincere and genuine people who somehow think that paying 5 bob a year and wearing an IPA lanyard means they are showing support for their colleagues whilst not soiling their souls by supporting BALPA. All you are doing is showing yourselves to be naive. The IPA have never achieved anything for anyone, and can never do so without the overwhelming majority of pilots supporting them. It costs money to run a proper union and fight court cases. The IPA/IPF have not got 2 halfpennies to rub together and can never be anything other than a distraction to the main battle. I know you are good people and mean well, but you are simply causing more hassle than you are stopping by trying to steer support to a powerless organisation that can never do anything. How easyJet management would just love to be dealing with you rather than BALPA.
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PM - yes you are correct that is exactly the way BALPA works. But that is not necessarily the way things have to be. BALPA could lead instead of react. It could say to its members "hey these are some issue's which we feel are having a detrimental effect on your working conditions - and we feel that an appropriate response is x,y,z". Other Unions seem capable of looking at issue's which effect their members on a national level.
I made the point that until the BA guys are on board I don't see BALPA taking on some of the bigger issue's because I appreciate that in reality the above is not going to happen. I hope that even BA are coming to see the threat posed by some of the activities of the Loco's and their business model. It will not save you if you are number 1 on the priority list when the whole company goes pop.
I made the point that until the BA guys are on board I don't see BALPA taking on some of the bigger issue's because I appreciate that in reality the above is not going to happen. I hope that even BA are coming to see the threat posed by some of the activities of the Loco's and their business model. It will not save you if you are number 1 on the priority list when the whole company goes pop.
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How easyJet management would just love to be dealing with you rather than BALPA
Also, don't forget, a union is not there to represent non-members. So if the bottom-feeding muppets aren't members, they won't have a say
I started another thread to discuss perceptions of BALPA, awaiting it changing to a Poll if possible. This one was composed as a glass half-full outlook on how things may be changing. Can I suggest any BALPA conversations switch and this is kept with additions/comments surrounding the greater pilot community appearing to sing with one voice.
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I need to find employment to have that luxury Vexed.
I think there is a place for unions, collective bargaining can and does work when it is done correctly. However to answer the question you posed, at present if hypothetically employed I fear I'd have to piggy back on the more experienced pilots in the company who had more sway, established relationships and respect. The current climate isn't one where the last guy in the door can go making demands/issuing edicts.
My solution to the current mire (yes I say mire) is that the current leadership either need to re-evaluate their position or overhaul their strategy. Maybe then the loopholes would be plugged, the bigger pictures looked at, intelligence and forward thought applied to negotiations and initiatives put in place to safeguard pilots.
As Daddy-Oh pointed out in the Poll thread I started, "an Inter City Train Driver & a non-BA Airline Captain has diminished to almost parity", I would be interested to know the differences between these two roles salaries and benefits packages at 10/20/30 year intervals from today. What that shows me at a first glance is that there are some transport workers who have effective representation and some who don't.
If you are expecting me to have a prepared solution then I have to admit I don't (if I was looking to be elected to general secretary then perhaps I would have a 10 year plan and a manifesto) - as a disgruntled pilot I am venting steam on a forum designed to foster debate and discussion.
I was unaware those posting on the (picked randomly from current T&E forum, page 1) "Jet4You Casablanca Roster" would offer a better method for the crewing department to adopt, or those highlighting "Highland Airways" woes would offer a financial recovery plan.
It happens often on here that if you find fault with something then you are asked to give an alternative or solution. Why exactly? Does my lack of solutions make my comments so far not carry any weight or is there a lack of truth in my accusations in your eyes?
If I had the answer and solution to all questions then I wouldn't be a pilot, I'd be world leader/deity. Feel free to leave an offering via Paypal.
I think there is a place for unions, collective bargaining can and does work when it is done correctly. However to answer the question you posed, at present if hypothetically employed I fear I'd have to piggy back on the more experienced pilots in the company who had more sway, established relationships and respect. The current climate isn't one where the last guy in the door can go making demands/issuing edicts.
My solution to the current mire (yes I say mire) is that the current leadership either need to re-evaluate their position or overhaul their strategy. Maybe then the loopholes would be plugged, the bigger pictures looked at, intelligence and forward thought applied to negotiations and initiatives put in place to safeguard pilots.
As Daddy-Oh pointed out in the Poll thread I started, "an Inter City Train Driver & a non-BA Airline Captain has diminished to almost parity", I would be interested to know the differences between these two roles salaries and benefits packages at 10/20/30 year intervals from today. What that shows me at a first glance is that there are some transport workers who have effective representation and some who don't.
If you are expecting me to have a prepared solution then I have to admit I don't (if I was looking to be elected to general secretary then perhaps I would have a 10 year plan and a manifesto) - as a disgruntled pilot I am venting steam on a forum designed to foster debate and discussion.
I was unaware those posting on the (picked randomly from current T&E forum, page 1) "Jet4You Casablanca Roster" would offer a better method for the crewing department to adopt, or those highlighting "Highland Airways" woes would offer a financial recovery plan.
It happens often on here that if you find fault with something then you are asked to give an alternative or solution. Why exactly? Does my lack of solutions make my comments so far not carry any weight or is there a lack of truth in my accusations in your eyes?
If I had the answer and solution to all questions then I wouldn't be a pilot, I'd be world leader/deity. Feel free to leave an offering via Paypal.
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For all those who may have subscribed to this thread, just to let you know I started a vote on BALPA as felt this one was going off topic.
Please feel free to go over and vote and continue union discussions there rather than here.
Much Love
DS
Please feel free to go over and vote and continue union discussions there rather than here.
Much Love
DS
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Dreamshiner - for reasons best known to yourself you have taken an overwhelming dislike to BALPA and set about destroying it at the very time it needs most support. From what I can glean you are a new pilot starting out or possibly one who has recently lost his job. I genuinely wish you well in that pursuit but the fact you do not have or have recently lost your job is not BALPA's fault. We are living in the worst recession in living memory and terrible things are happening to airlines round the world. You also do not seem to have grasped that any victories BALPA win can only be achieved by the support of their members. Most CCs are faced with managers who know that right now if they sacked their pilots they could replace the whole lot almost immediately with a fresh set. That will not always be the case, but right now pilots are in the weakest negotiating position they have experienced in my working lifetime. To somehow blame BALPA for this is at best naive. You have no grasp whatsoever of the realities of our industry right now and are simply a muck-raker trying to bring down BALPA because of your own personal difficulties.
Listening to some of the ill-informed comments on this thread, I am amazed at the lack of insight some contributors have to the realities under which we are living right now. They think that BALPA just swan into the Operations Director's office, demand a 15% pay rise and sit back to eventually receive 13% instead. Managers in our industry right now do not care if your or I live or die. We are facing voracious and immoral managers who can only see to guide their companies to the next bonus cycle. These are short term thinkers who are without a conscience and lack any real insight into the long term. BALPA are the ONLY defence we have, and all the reps I know are giving their waking hours to fighting our cause for little or no reward. All they recieve in return are the frankly pathetic polls of the type Dreamshiner is proposing. They simply undermine the support base of the Union even further and just pour petrol on troubled waters at a time when clear thinking and sensible actions are called for.
Listening to some of the ill-informed comments on this thread, I am amazed at the lack of insight some contributors have to the realities under which we are living right now. They think that BALPA just swan into the Operations Director's office, demand a 15% pay rise and sit back to eventually receive 13% instead. Managers in our industry right now do not care if your or I live or die. We are facing voracious and immoral managers who can only see to guide their companies to the next bonus cycle. These are short term thinkers who are without a conscience and lack any real insight into the long term. BALPA are the ONLY defence we have, and all the reps I know are giving their waking hours to fighting our cause for little or no reward. All they recieve in return are the frankly pathetic polls of the type Dreamshiner is proposing. They simply undermine the support base of the Union even further and just pour petrol on troubled waters at a time when clear thinking and sensible actions are called for.
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A pathetic poll you proceeded to post your vote on post #3 before its was upgraded. Without a call for cancellation.
Like BALPA management, rather than highlighting your opinion in advance and saying "this isn't the way forward" you wait till it's up and running and then spit the dummy.
From reading your previous posts I must admit I didn't get your strength of opinion.
By making it a vote it gives everyone a voice for little effort. As I pointed out, you are 20x more likely to complain than to praise so a mere click without having to take the time out to write a response would allow ALL to freely share their opinions.
I'm sure its of no surprise to you I feel BALPA's senior management, legal and negotiation teams are grossly irresponsible and doing significant damage to the cause of pilots. They are the ones truely playing into the hands of unscrupulous management. Do you think the execs rub their hands with glee at a thread on PPRuNe or because the union is not fit for purpose. The company reps can only fight with the weapons given to them, I don't doubt the integrity and endeavour of the reps, however they are being given blunt and obsolete weapons to fight their corner.
BALPA has turned into a per company organisation rather than universal, if it still was there wouldn't be the same erosion and more solidarity. I'm not going to sit on my thumbs to watch idly.
I don't want to destroy BALPA, I want it to reinvent itself and regain its voice and balls.
The poll thread may turn out to be tough love.
Like BALPA management, rather than highlighting your opinion in advance and saying "this isn't the way forward" you wait till it's up and running and then spit the dummy.
From reading your previous posts I must admit I didn't get your strength of opinion.
By making it a vote it gives everyone a voice for little effort. As I pointed out, you are 20x more likely to complain than to praise so a mere click without having to take the time out to write a response would allow ALL to freely share their opinions.
I'm sure its of no surprise to you I feel BALPA's senior management, legal and negotiation teams are grossly irresponsible and doing significant damage to the cause of pilots. They are the ones truely playing into the hands of unscrupulous management. Do you think the execs rub their hands with glee at a thread on PPRuNe or because the union is not fit for purpose. The company reps can only fight with the weapons given to them, I don't doubt the integrity and endeavour of the reps, however they are being given blunt and obsolete weapons to fight their corner.
BALPA has turned into a per company organisation rather than universal, if it still was there wouldn't be the same erosion and more solidarity. I'm not going to sit on my thumbs to watch idly.
I don't want to destroy BALPA, I want it to reinvent itself and regain its voice and balls.
The poll thread may turn out to be tough love.
spot on NSF
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al446
Sorry al446, too many name changes since I last looked! However, I hope you understand my argument.
Pm, "Bottom Feeding Muppets" ? Is that what you think of your fellow professionals who are either unemployed or a newbie? Amazing.
Unions I believe should represent everybody including non-members. Its called "winning over the customer ", if they show interest the customer generally comes back even if its more expensive ie. John Lewis.
No doubt you will say its different but its not.
I was talking to my Big Bro a few weeks ago about the cadet pilot schemes and PTF scam. He was amazed. First thing He said was "What's the Union doing?", "Nothing" I replied. He was in shock and told me when He was an apprentice engineer. The Union looked after them even though they were not full members. It was in their own interest to look after them. They were their future members.
I honestly believe BALPA is cutting its own throat. It could do so much more to help/advice newbies, unemployed Pilots etc.
Its a shame really that we've got to this point of discussing BALPA on a public forum to get them to listen.
I agree that it needs root and branch overall as the present system is not effective and plays into the hands of airline management.
Pm, "Bottom Feeding Muppets" ? Is that what you think of your fellow professionals who are either unemployed or a newbie? Amazing.
Unions I believe should represent everybody including non-members. Its called "winning over the customer ", if they show interest the customer generally comes back even if its more expensive ie. John Lewis.
No doubt you will say its different but its not.
I was talking to my Big Bro a few weeks ago about the cadet pilot schemes and PTF scam. He was amazed. First thing He said was "What's the Union doing?", "Nothing" I replied. He was in shock and told me when He was an apprentice engineer. The Union looked after them even though they were not full members. It was in their own interest to look after them. They were their future members.
I honestly believe BALPA is cutting its own throat. It could do so much more to help/advice newbies, unemployed Pilots etc.
Its a shame really that we've got to this point of discussing BALPA on a public forum to get them to listen.
I agree that it needs root and branch overall as the present system is not effective and plays into the hands of airline management.
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For me there are 5 villains who's culpability in the whole P2F debacle is still to be determined. As to what percentage should be apportioned to each group then I'm sure everyone has an opinion.
The 5 villains:
1./ The Airline (or more specifically the execs) for proposing/agreeing to implement P2F.
2./ The school or middleman who acts as a broker where their income is paramount opposed to the welfare or future career of the pilot.
3./ The low houred/newly qualified pilot for paying a commercial company on a revenue generating flight to get ahead.
4./ BALPA for not nipping this in the bud when the first chancer tried it on, now a precedent has been set and its widespread. Poor lobbying of government/schools/airlines/members.
5./ The current government for not making this illegal and social attitudes promoted by previous governments which instilled a "all about number 1" mentality into our society.
The 5 villains:
1./ The Airline (or more specifically the execs) for proposing/agreeing to implement P2F.
2./ The school or middleman who acts as a broker where their income is paramount opposed to the welfare or future career of the pilot.
3./ The low houred/newly qualified pilot for paying a commercial company on a revenue generating flight to get ahead.
4./ BALPA for not nipping this in the bud when the first chancer tried it on, now a precedent has been set and its widespread. Poor lobbying of government/schools/airlines/members.
5./ The current government for not making this illegal and social attitudes promoted by previous governments which instilled a "all about number 1" mentality into our society.
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Dreamshiner
So, by your methodology, everyone is to blame.
That won't help get rid of an "i'm alright Jack" attitude will it? We'll all just keep blaming each other and doing what suits us best....
That won't help get rid of an "i'm alright Jack" attitude will it? We'll all just keep blaming each other and doing what suits us best....
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Not at all Stansdead,
As I said in my post, the level of culpability in this whole sorry affair has yet to be apportioned, some of the 5 villains will be more responsible than others.
As to who can hold their head up high, be sheer process of elimination it would be those who are involved in some way in 1-5 and chose not to adopt or countenance the implementation of this practice.
However, just to be clear - I would list pilots who have decided for moral (or financial) reasons not to stoop to base level. Airlines and Schools who have sent these vultures (P2F administrators and facilitators) packing. BALPA CC's/employees who want to take this on but have their hands tied from above. MP's who are creating a stir. Finally pilots who have been in employment for long enough/or lucky to avoid this trend and are sharing their disgust (what this thread is about - along with a few other issues).
Not quite everybody.
As I said in my post, the level of culpability in this whole sorry affair has yet to be apportioned, some of the 5 villains will be more responsible than others.
As to who can hold their head up high, be sheer process of elimination it would be those who are involved in some way in 1-5 and chose not to adopt or countenance the implementation of this practice.
However, just to be clear - I would list pilots who have decided for moral (or financial) reasons not to stoop to base level. Airlines and Schools who have sent these vultures (P2F administrators and facilitators) packing. BALPA CC's/employees who want to take this on but have their hands tied from above. MP's who are creating a stir. Finally pilots who have been in employment for long enough/or lucky to avoid this trend and are sharing their disgust (what this thread is about - along with a few other issues).
Not quite everybody.
