Pay pilots better, Hudson River hero urges
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Someone buy this man a beer - he does his job properly then uses the resultant publicity to focus media attention on the ****e thats being forced upon us throughout the industry - respect.
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Agreed in principal
Captain Sully has a good point.
To use paraphrased Austrian invective : the fish starts stinking from the head first.
That head is sadly the system that lead part of the western world down the American way, and dragged everyone else with it.
The SW airlines business model that gave us FR, which in turn has driven the "get rich quick" clamour for type ratings through TRTO's affiliated to the low cost operators.
How does this model build experienced operators ? does this business model really care ? apparently not as but for the skill and luck of Cpt. Sully the people on board that aircraft would have been part of a commercially acceptable hull loss.
So long as the shareholders are happy who cares and let's hope for the best.
Experienced people are leaving the industry either by choice or redundancy.. replaced by whom ?
Consider the Captain of a certain low cost operator who was scared to tell his employer that his son had died .... for he was in fear of getting fired !!!
That incident is covered elsewhere on PPrune, but the message is clear.
T & C's get driven through the floor, the industry will not maintain the core of individuals who can inspire and nurture the next generation of captains : they will look for other ways to earn similar money without the dubiously attractive lifestyle, and teach PPL's, fly for fun for their aviation fix.
Well said Cpt Sully.
To use paraphrased Austrian invective : the fish starts stinking from the head first.
That head is sadly the system that lead part of the western world down the American way, and dragged everyone else with it.
The SW airlines business model that gave us FR, which in turn has driven the "get rich quick" clamour for type ratings through TRTO's affiliated to the low cost operators.
How does this model build experienced operators ? does this business model really care ? apparently not as but for the skill and luck of Cpt. Sully the people on board that aircraft would have been part of a commercially acceptable hull loss.
So long as the shareholders are happy who cares and let's hope for the best.
Experienced people are leaving the industry either by choice or redundancy.. replaced by whom ?
Consider the Captain of a certain low cost operator who was scared to tell his employer that his son had died .... for he was in fear of getting fired !!!
That incident is covered elsewhere on PPrune, but the message is clear.
T & C's get driven through the floor, the industry will not maintain the core of individuals who can inspire and nurture the next generation of captains : they will look for other ways to earn similar money without the dubiously attractive lifestyle, and teach PPL's, fly for fun for their aviation fix.
Well said Cpt Sully.
Last edited by Teddy Robinson; 26th Oct 2009 at 20:37. Reason: Typo's
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The SW airlines business model that gave us FR, which in turn has driven the "get rich quick" clamour for type ratings through TRTO's affiliated to the low cost operators.
How does this model build experienced operators ? does this business model really care ?
How does this model build experienced operators ? does this business model really care ?
Southwest, before you start throwing stones in their direction...are the highest paid B737 operators in the USA...read, big bucks.
FR?
Don't especially care about them, I ain't Irish...nor European.
IE: swim in your own ocean...we on the western side of the great divide couldn't care less.
And, FR seems to be doing OK...I hear complaints about these folks...from those that either were rejected from their employ...or never applied.
It's called...sour grapes.
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sour grapes ?
no .. the massive cultural divide that thankfully divides you from Europe, and the real world .
My world is the AAIB ... rather than conjecture ..
Take that very literally.
My world is the AAIB ... rather than conjecture ..
Take that very literally.
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The SW airlines business model that gave us FR
And criticising FR is not normally about sour grapes, it is more about seeing a once-proud occupation reduced to the status of bus driver, and all the changes that entails. Reasonable money, but you have to sell your soul to get it. There are lots of us who never applied to Ryanair, and never will!
How utterly predictable that an American wouldn't know or care about the rest of the world... the USA is the world, right? At least until China get themselves organised properly, at which point the USA will find themselves in a similar position to the British Empire. Aviation is global these days, it's a lot smarter to be aware of other parts of the world...
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Sullenberger had packed his carry-on bag as usual – three shirts, three pairs of socks, three pairs of underwear, books, umbrella and a laptop. He had Green Day and The Killers on his iPod.
And the umbrella... so not to get wet
guess the underwear came handy as well
Last edited by fhegner; 27th Oct 2009 at 03:35.
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I would suspect that many of the malcontents here, complaining about flight crew pay (including those that constantly complain about FR, yet don't work there...
) would like to be paid quite a bit more.
I would then ask...what makes you think that you are worth that extra pay you think you deserve?
Here are the North American airline pay scales, specifically for the USA.
http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com
If I were an airline manager I would ask each and every pilot to actually justify the reasons why they think they are worth more....considering the fact that most airline HR departments have a stack of applications six feet high...at least.
There are exceptions, of course.
Older types, for example, for which there are few current and qualified pilots...L1011, for one example.
At our small airline, our L1011 Captains earn as much as a senior Delta 777 Captain on a monthly basis, and it is paid tax free, due to the seasonal type of flying involved.
So, why do YOU think you are worth more in your flying job?
Out and out greed, excepted.
) would like to be paid quite a bit more.I would then ask...what makes you think that you are worth that extra pay you think you deserve?
Here are the North American airline pay scales, specifically for the USA.
http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com
If I were an airline manager I would ask each and every pilot to actually justify the reasons why they think they are worth more....considering the fact that most airline HR departments have a stack of applications six feet high...at least.
There are exceptions, of course.
Older types, for example, for which there are few current and qualified pilots...L1011, for one example.
At our small airline, our L1011 Captains earn as much as a senior Delta 777 Captain on a monthly basis, and it is paid tax free, due to the seasonal type of flying involved.
So, why do YOU think you are worth more in your flying job?
Out and out greed, excepted.
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I would suspect that many of the malcontents here, complaining about flight crew pay (including those that constantly complain about FR, yet don't work there...) would like to be paid quite a bit more.
I would then ask...what makes you think that you are worth that extra pay you think you deserve?]
) would like to be paid quite a bit more.I would then ask...what makes you think that you are worth that extra pay you think you deserve?]
A lot of people complain about FR not because they couldn't get a gig there, but because FR, along with Easyjet and the other LCC's that have since gone to the wall, have laid waste to the T&C's of the majority of airlines in Europe. So where once you joined an airline and were trained, now you have to pay for your type rating; whereas once it was normal to be fed and watered during the day, now many airlines make you pay for it; and so on. You are misunderstanding the basis of the discontent. If the LCC's had invested in their staff in the way that Southwest do, there would likely be little complaint at all. But instead, you have operations where, in the case of Ryanair, the principal will happily express his disdain and disregard of his pilots.
The second thing you seem to misunderstand, is that pilot salaries are determined by market forces, a concept essentially born in the USA. I also fly an increasingly rare jet, and I have found that I have been offered very lucrative contracts because there is a shortage of qualified crew. Why am I worth that salary? Because there isn't anyone else, and if you want me, you have to pay my rate. Of course, if I was flying something common like a 737 or A320, I would have virtually no leverage (and quite likely no job). But my point is that I do not have to justify my salary; the market does that for me. No airline pays more than it thinks it has to, and virtually all airlines in Europe adjust their T&Cs on the basis of supply and demand.
Any pilot who insists on an unrealistic salary that is out of step with his peers, will also be unemployed.
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The second thing you seem to misunderstand, is that pilot salaries are determined by market forces, a concept essentially born in the USA. I also fly an increasingly rare jet, and I have found that I have been offered very lucrative contracts because there is a shortage of qualified crew. Why am I worth that salary? Because there isn't anyone else, and if you want me, you have to pay my rate.
I most certainly do not misunderstand market forces, and in fact, it is those very same market forces that determine pilot salaries.
No airline management in their right mind would pay more than they must, and indeed for the low cost carriers both in the USA and UK/Europe, it is the same.
Yes, Southwest invests in their crew, and pays them accordingly and further, that apparently FR does not, will work to their disadvantage.
However FR management has their policies, and they are stuck with them...and any problems that might develop as a result of those policies.
Our small company looks after their valued FD crew members, and that is why there is a very small turnover.
However, with other low cost carriers, the flying public demands lower fares, and airline managements are between a rock and a hard place....lower revenue requires lower salaries.
Southwest is the exception...but they have been flying for a very long time and so have found the right balance.
Market forces are surely at work, and with the number of pilots out of work at the present time, I am quite surprised that salaries are not even lower than at present.
Given time, they will likely go down in the short/medium term.
Longer term...unlikely to recover much.
Brand new pilots today have this scenario to look forward to, and like it or lump it, there is not much they can do about it.
Except, change careers.
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Once upon a time, Delta, United, NWA, were highly compensated pilots too with handsome retirement, life and health benefits.
With the help of their ALPA, MECs, and coercion from management, they all agreed to take pay cuts. Their retirement benefits were terminated. Their health benefits options were also reduced. They all agreed to this without any provisions for repayment of reduced salaries, nor restoration of benefits. But that's what happens when you have ALPA on your side.
Big difference with SWA is that they have a strong union and do not let management get away with anything.
Then there is the public's perception of pilot's pay. There has been a great deal of informational picketing at airports in the US about the erosion of pay and benefits. Unfortunately after the KMSP overfly and KATL taxiway incident... say so long to public sympathy.
With the help of their ALPA, MECs, and coercion from management, they all agreed to take pay cuts. Their retirement benefits were terminated. Their health benefits options were also reduced. They all agreed to this without any provisions for repayment of reduced salaries, nor restoration of benefits. But that's what happens when you have ALPA on your side.
Big difference with SWA is that they have a strong union and do not let management get away with anything.
Then there is the public's perception of pilot's pay. There has been a great deal of informational picketing at airports in the US about the erosion of pay and benefits. Unfortunately after the KMSP overfly and KATL taxiway incident... say so long to public sympathy.
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Funny that, I seem to recall that only a few years ago the pilot unions forced through ridiculous pay rises that those of us on the other side of the pond looked at with incredulity. The airlines warned that the pay rises were not sustainable. The unanimous verdict in Europe was that the pay settlements would bankrupt the airlines... and sure enough... just a few short years later... Ch 11 everywhere and the pilots were forced to eat swingeing cuts that left them worse off than they had been before the pay rises.
Perhaps if they had been sensible in the first place, all that could have been avoided.
Wonderful things, unions...
Perhaps if they had been sensible in the first place, all that could have been avoided.
Wonderful things, unions...
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Good job from Sully 
Hes done well using his publicity to try drive up our T&Cs but to be honest, i dont think much is going to change, supply and demand will win once again....
Hes done well using his publicity to try drive up our T&Cs but to be honest, i dont think much is going to change, supply and demand will win once again....
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... but all other operators are paying to much to thier crews
Southwest is profitable (except for special accounting circumstances) whereas, many other airlines are not.
In our particular situation, we are a seasonal flyer, so cannot be compared to regular scheduled carriers.
And, I did not say salaries should be reduced.
I specifically asked why some folks think they are worth more.
Haven't noticed many justifications for this...
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I'm worth more because due to my company not realizing the required costs for maintenance, crew planning etc, my regualr day at the job requires a greater flexibility than that stated in my job description.
Instead of just operating the aircraft according to schedule and SOP, we have to solve so many problems that could have been avoided by proper operational and economic planning. I believe the saying goes: "penny wise and pound stupid". Somewhere they need ends to meet and usually this occurs on the line and I am one of their solutions. That's why I should have a higher salary.
Flexibility is nothing that comes for free. It is paid for and as much as the company doesn't give me freebies outside of my contract, I am not about to give them freebies outside of my job description.
This is a very unfortunate attitude for an employer to have amongst the employees, bu that is what happens when they treat us like sh/t.
/LnS
Instead of just operating the aircraft according to schedule and SOP, we have to solve so many problems that could have been avoided by proper operational and economic planning. I believe the saying goes: "penny wise and pound stupid". Somewhere they need ends to meet and usually this occurs on the line and I am one of their solutions. That's why I should have a higher salary.
Flexibility is nothing that comes for free. It is paid for and as much as the company doesn't give me freebies outside of my contract, I am not about to give them freebies outside of my job description.
This is a very unfortunate attitude for an employer to have amongst the employees, bu that is what happens when they treat us like sh/t.
/LnS
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the price of our labour is little different to the price of anybody elses labour. It is a market driven price and that market is just as alive today as it has ever been. What has changed is deregulation. In particular I am referring to the regulatory authorities being pursuaded to create a much simpler rulebook.
When most of us were in the early stages of our careers we either came up through the military, or through a general aviation based series of entry level jobs that eventually resulted in sufficient experience to apply for the turboprop level jobs or jobs with smaller carriers. Eventually within one companies structure, or by moving to another carrier we made our way up through a reasonably structured system that enabaled us to advance higher up the tree, to the level we either are or would eventually reach.
The standards expected by the regulator and the carriers themselves, set the benchmark requirements for each stage of progression. The limitation that put on the supply chain set the market price that could be demanded. Variations from time to time, were then as a result of fluctutions in demand over any given cycle.
The advent of the low cost airlines, with their aircraft orders in the hundreds, should (notwithstanding competition casualities) have brought with it a surge in demand that actually raised the pilots market price. However that was completely at variance with the whole "low cost" concept. So something had to be done. Since the regulator wouldn't allow them to simply ditch one crewmember (as had previously happened with the introduction of the "glass cockpit" generation of jets) a way had to be found to make the whole process of employing one or both pilots much cheaper. The obvious way was to increase the supply, but this was difficult given the experience base required. The answer was to remove the experience base. That is what we have seen in abundance on both sides of the Atlantic, and around the world.
In the last decade the pilot joining in the right seat is no longer the 2000+ hour ex instructor, air taxi, regional airline, pilot. It is no longer the military career changer. It is now somebody with anywhere between 100 and 250 hours who has done some sort of "relevant airline tailored" course, and is incorporating this "job" as part of his ongoing training. These people are clamouring to take up this seat and will pay significant sums of money for the opportunity to sit there.
I asked a regulatory Operation inspector on a route check a few years ago, how the regulator viewed this rapidly growing concept. His honest answer was, that provided there was sufficient experience in the left seat, and the other pilot held the requisite qualifications, the regulator had no particular concerns in this regard.
So the airlines and initially the low cost airlines now a plentiful supply of applicants who no longer needed experience to occupy this seat. Not only that but some airlines had people paying them to sit there. This distortion in the market has resulted in a massive oversupply, that coupled with a global downturn in demand, is now feeding through as a wholesale "slash and burn" for terms & conditions at the entry level. If it hasn't happened at your company yet, it is probably on the way soon.
In the other seat, you have seen increases in the retirement age from age 55-60 to age 65. This has taken significant pressure on the left seat demand by virtue of natural turnover, and again coupled with the recession has hurt the market value of pilots in that seat.
In the US you are now starting see to see governmental concern at pilots experience levels, as a result of a couple of profiled accidents. This is likely to result in the regulator being forced to adopt higher entry level experience requirements for airline First Officers. Inevitably that same regulatory scrutiny will be forced on the no doubt "kicking and screaming" airlines this side of the Atlantic eventually.
Given time (5-10 years) the increased retirement age will also level itself out as a market distortion factor. So I do believe things will improve eventually, however in the short/medium term it is likely to be something of a bloodbath.
When most of us were in the early stages of our careers we either came up through the military, or through a general aviation based series of entry level jobs that eventually resulted in sufficient experience to apply for the turboprop level jobs or jobs with smaller carriers. Eventually within one companies structure, or by moving to another carrier we made our way up through a reasonably structured system that enabaled us to advance higher up the tree, to the level we either are or would eventually reach.
The standards expected by the regulator and the carriers themselves, set the benchmark requirements for each stage of progression. The limitation that put on the supply chain set the market price that could be demanded. Variations from time to time, were then as a result of fluctutions in demand over any given cycle.
The advent of the low cost airlines, with their aircraft orders in the hundreds, should (notwithstanding competition casualities) have brought with it a surge in demand that actually raised the pilots market price. However that was completely at variance with the whole "low cost" concept. So something had to be done. Since the regulator wouldn't allow them to simply ditch one crewmember (as had previously happened with the introduction of the "glass cockpit" generation of jets) a way had to be found to make the whole process of employing one or both pilots much cheaper. The obvious way was to increase the supply, but this was difficult given the experience base required. The answer was to remove the experience base. That is what we have seen in abundance on both sides of the Atlantic, and around the world.
In the last decade the pilot joining in the right seat is no longer the 2000+ hour ex instructor, air taxi, regional airline, pilot. It is no longer the military career changer. It is now somebody with anywhere between 100 and 250 hours who has done some sort of "relevant airline tailored" course, and is incorporating this "job" as part of his ongoing training. These people are clamouring to take up this seat and will pay significant sums of money for the opportunity to sit there.
I asked a regulatory Operation inspector on a route check a few years ago, how the regulator viewed this rapidly growing concept. His honest answer was, that provided there was sufficient experience in the left seat, and the other pilot held the requisite qualifications, the regulator had no particular concerns in this regard.
So the airlines and initially the low cost airlines now a plentiful supply of applicants who no longer needed experience to occupy this seat. Not only that but some airlines had people paying them to sit there. This distortion in the market has resulted in a massive oversupply, that coupled with a global downturn in demand, is now feeding through as a wholesale "slash and burn" for terms & conditions at the entry level. If it hasn't happened at your company yet, it is probably on the way soon.
In the other seat, you have seen increases in the retirement age from age 55-60 to age 65. This has taken significant pressure on the left seat demand by virtue of natural turnover, and again coupled with the recession has hurt the market value of pilots in that seat.
In the US you are now starting see to see governmental concern at pilots experience levels, as a result of a couple of profiled accidents. This is likely to result in the regulator being forced to adopt higher entry level experience requirements for airline First Officers. Inevitably that same regulatory scrutiny will be forced on the no doubt "kicking and screaming" airlines this side of the Atlantic eventually.
Given time (5-10 years) the increased retirement age will also level itself out as a market distortion factor. So I do believe things will improve eventually, however in the short/medium term it is likely to be something of a bloodbath.