Kenya Airways DPI contract...
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Kenya Airways DPI contract...
according to a DPI agency contract a CAPTAIN for Kenya Airways gets a salary of under 6000 dollars per month. Now i wonder who works for such peanuts and destroys our market?
certainly no pilot of a reasonable quality standard.
when i first saw this figure i thought it was a joke. but nope.. every pilot who works under price like this should get his licence revoked.
ok, flying is not ONLY about money, but for this salary i rather stay unemployed... what a shame...
certainly no pilot of a reasonable quality standard.
when i first saw this figure i thought it was a joke. but nope.. every pilot who works under price like this should get his licence revoked.
ok, flying is not ONLY about money, but for this salary i rather stay unemployed... what a shame...
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Captainnic
I'll tell you who works for "peanuts" in a wonderful enviroment like East Africa, they are pilots who do not want to fly with ignorant self opinionated ar....les like you. I guess you will stay unemployed for a loooooooooooong time, I certainly would not employ you.
I'll tell you who works for "peanuts" in a wonderful enviroment like East Africa, they are pilots who do not want to fly with ignorant self opinionated ar....les like you. I guess you will stay unemployed for a loooooooooooong time, I certainly would not employ you.
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you can live like a king in Kenya for $6000 per month. I would argue that relitively speaking it is a very well paid position. Not many in East Africa earn that kind of dosh.
A very strange way to put a question and in a very ignorant way.
A very strange way to put a question and in a very ignorant way.
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Capt titanic is correct. Pilot contract work is a global. Whatever you work for in one country affects the market globally, no matter where your working. Maybe 6k is alot in E Africa, but are you going to retire there? No. Contract pilots will, after the contract is finished, go home. That is the benefit to the contracting company, IE they can say goodbye and are not obligated to the contractee for his future or any benifits. If they are looking for pilots on the global market then they have to pay global market prices. If 6k is the price, than that is what you are all worth gentlmen. It is simple supply and demand economics. Just becase Capt Titanic is negative toward this contract does not mean he has a bad attitude. I fully agree with him, and I wouldn't hire anyone who would sell himself short or does not have the higher reasoning to see how this works. That means you Hawker. Maybe I will add this type of questioning to our HR department.... because it says alot about character.
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Yes it is a market. If you state a price you are prepared to pay for a commodity, be it a pilot or a lobster, you are hoping that there are enough sellers prepared to accept that price to satisfy your demand. If there aren't enough sellers then you either pay more or go without. Likewise if the sellers quote a price that doesn't attract enough buyers, they either drop their price to match the level of demand, or watch their commodity gather dust or perish.
In some cases a buyer will demand a level of quality that dictates a higher price and that simply becomes a niche within the marketplace. But the same supply and demand fundamentals will still apply.
These days there are a lot of pilots who believe they will find rich future rewards by selling their services at a loss now. This means there is a lot of oversupply which drives the price in the market down. If and when this oversupply perishes or dries up, so the price will start to recover.
If you choose not to, or cannot afford to become a player in the market, then the best course of action is to simply browse (you might stumble across a bargain or a gem) or stay out.
The morality merchants who claim they wouldn't buy from the cheapest seller on principal, either have deep pockets, which enables them to operate at a commercial disadvantage, or they are in the niche market already described.
In some cases a buyer will demand a level of quality that dictates a higher price and that simply becomes a niche within the marketplace. But the same supply and demand fundamentals will still apply.
These days there are a lot of pilots who believe they will find rich future rewards by selling their services at a loss now. This means there is a lot of oversupply which drives the price in the market down. If and when this oversupply perishes or dries up, so the price will start to recover.
If you choose not to, or cannot afford to become a player in the market, then the best course of action is to simply browse (you might stumble across a bargain or a gem) or stay out.
The morality merchants who claim they wouldn't buy from the cheapest seller on principal, either have deep pockets, which enables them to operate at a commercial disadvantage, or they are in the niche market already described.
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Yes I agree..hawker's character needs looking into more than captainnic's.I suppose nobody forces you to take the job and the world certainly doesnt owe you a living but..the job is advertised as a contract(ie expat) position so local living costs are irrelevant.I agree that Kenya is a beautiful place but again..irrelevant.$8k is minimum rate narrowbody...$10k widebody.I know it,you know it,they know it.Anyone under this rate is taking advantage of the present crisis..
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hawker750 - to base your decision on whether or not to employ CAPTAINNIC on the wording of one sentence does not show a whole lot of wisdom or common sense. However, I suspect that you are probably not in a position to employ anybody, so your dilemma will be removed from you.
I can only concur with other contributors here. It may indeed be true that $6,000 is a lot of money in Kenya. That is largely irrelevant for any ex-pat pilot employed there as almost certainly they will have mortgages to pay and family to keep somewhere else around the world. They therefore require to be properly remunerated. Nothing sinister or greedy in that - just plain common sense.
I can only concur with other contributors here. It may indeed be true that $6,000 is a lot of money in Kenya. That is largely irrelevant for any ex-pat pilot employed there as almost certainly they will have mortgages to pay and family to keep somewhere else around the world. They therefore require to be properly remunerated. Nothing sinister or greedy in that - just plain common sense.
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Wow, I'm really glad I don't have to rely on some of you guys to put food on the table etc... for my family or I fear they'd starve to death because of your sense over-inflated selfworth and your crappy attitudes which is unlikely to get you hired anywhere. I am fortunate enough to have a full-time, regular paid job and for that I am very very grateful. But, if things were different and I found myself in need, well then I would take whatever was paying money and I am pretty damn sure that no decent human being is going to begrudge me earning money, no matter how little or much it is. It is such a shame that people like "Captainnic" and "555Orange" have such HUGE ego's that they would sooner sign on then work. Very sad.
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The simple fact of the matter is that anyone unemployed , with a rapidly emptying bank account, will accept it.
If they have two cognitive brain cells they will resent it, and they will frequently be heard referring to their "benefactors" as money grabbing exploitative grubby little bar-stewards, and at the first available chance , they will Foxtrot Oscar PDQ.
How, with any sense of reality/imagination, can it pan out any other way ? ?
The greater majority among us have some pride/morals/sense of self worth, but we need to eat
Anyhow, shower of bean-counter sh1ts, hope they burn in hell IMHO
If they have two cognitive brain cells they will resent it, and they will frequently be heard referring to their "benefactors" as money grabbing exploitative grubby little bar-stewards, and at the first available chance , they will Foxtrot Oscar PDQ.
How, with any sense of reality/imagination, can it pan out any other way ? ?
The greater majority among us have some pride/morals/sense of self worth, but we need to eat
Anyhow, shower of bean-counter sh1ts, hope they burn in hell IMHO
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confirmed from a source at KQ that this rate is for E170 drivers. Their accomodation is also catered for. Not saying whether this is a good or bad deal by internationational standards.
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Rather stay unemployed than have say a 2 year term (with accomodation provided free) in Kenya? It's a pleasant environment, very interesting flying and plenty of leisure interest if you like the outdoors. Contractors on KQ are only taken on for the most junior fleet so you know what you are getting into. It's a one-off with no opportunity for progression as the other fleets are reserved for Kenya nationals only. If you want a couple of pleasant years off the dole while aviation wordwide starts to revive then it's not a bad way of filling in the time, adding to your experience. If you prefer to stay in your flat/garden brain dead for 2 years that it's your choice and you are fully entitled to make it but on the other hand it's a perfectly reasonable choice for someone whose circumstances and outlook are different.
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Fletcher:
Quote: "However, I suspect that you are probably not in a position to employ anybody, so your dilemma will be removed from you. "How wrong can you be in your assumption. I have probably employed more staff including pilots in my career than you have had pay cheques.
As for SkyLion. Bravo! he said the same as me but in a more delicate way. Why does owning a pilot's licence make some guys so arrogant. Flying is simply a learnt skill that 90% of the population are capable of being taught. Experience is simply that.
Quote: "However, I suspect that you are probably not in a position to employ anybody, so your dilemma will be removed from you. "How wrong can you be in your assumption. I have probably employed more staff including pilots in my career than you have had pay cheques.
As for SkyLion. Bravo! he said the same as me but in a more delicate way. Why does owning a pilot's licence make some guys so arrogant. Flying is simply a learnt skill that 90% of the population are capable of being taught. Experience is simply that.
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Hawker750. Pay peanuts get.........................
”Why does owning a pilot's licence make some guys so arrogant. Flying is simply a learnt skill that 90% of the population are capable of being taught. Experience is simply that.”
I am not sure it is earning the pilot’s license that makes some guys so arrogant, as it is the arrogant, self-assured, power/prestige driven individuals endowed with those personality traits are drawn to flying. How many military fighter pilot type 20-30-something year olds have you come across that are unassuming, quiet, reserved, humble and “grateful that you took the time to notice me” types?
I don’t know a thing about “hawker750”? Perhaps 90% of the population is capable of being taught to fly, but that does not make them capable airman.
I worked for a individual who was worth billions, ran his own high profile company and was a licensed pilot. He would call up and have us get the jet ready: flighplanned, fueled, preflighted. He would show up, jump in and fly off solo. He did not have the time for recurrent training, nor did he know or care about the ‘regulations’ and forget about asking system or performance questions. There is a world of difference between that individual and the commander of the jetliner that ditched his airbus in the Hudson River some time ago. Both are jet pilots, but they are not equal. I know which one I would want in command of my Kenyan Airliner departing Cameroon on a dark stormy night with level 5 thunderstorms around.
I, on the other hand, do not presume to know how to run a multinational company with hundreds or thousands of employees even though I have a business degree. Often you get what you pay for. Pay peanuts you get monkeys. However paying a king’s ransom does not guarantee you will get a prince; you might still end up with monkeys.
If you think flight crews, training and equipment are expensive; what about a hull loss and a smoking crater in the ground? 90% of the population may be capable of being licensed, but not placed in command of a commercial airliner.
Respectfully,
I am not sure it is earning the pilot’s license that makes some guys so arrogant, as it is the arrogant, self-assured, power/prestige driven individuals endowed with those personality traits are drawn to flying. How many military fighter pilot type 20-30-something year olds have you come across that are unassuming, quiet, reserved, humble and “grateful that you took the time to notice me” types?
I don’t know a thing about “hawker750”? Perhaps 90% of the population is capable of being taught to fly, but that does not make them capable airman.
I worked for a individual who was worth billions, ran his own high profile company and was a licensed pilot. He would call up and have us get the jet ready: flighplanned, fueled, preflighted. He would show up, jump in and fly off solo. He did not have the time for recurrent training, nor did he know or care about the ‘regulations’ and forget about asking system or performance questions. There is a world of difference between that individual and the commander of the jetliner that ditched his airbus in the Hudson River some time ago. Both are jet pilots, but they are not equal. I know which one I would want in command of my Kenyan Airliner departing Cameroon on a dark stormy night with level 5 thunderstorms around.
I, on the other hand, do not presume to know how to run a multinational company with hundreds or thousands of employees even though I have a business degree. Often you get what you pay for. Pay peanuts you get monkeys. However paying a king’s ransom does not guarantee you will get a prince; you might still end up with monkeys.
If you think flight crews, training and equipment are expensive; what about a hull loss and a smoking crater in the ground? 90% of the population may be capable of being licensed, but not placed in command of a commercial airliner.
Respectfully,
Last edited by Northbeach; 7th Oct 2009 at 18:42.
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Northbeach
I agree with about everything you say including the bits about unsafe rich pilots.
I am not a rich pilot, all I have done is own and run a professional charter company for 30 years and it has been one hell of a hard slog.
I have been a IRE/TRE (check airman to you) and have conducted hundreds of licence/rating renewals and have come to the conclusion about the pilot population as this
10% are superb aces
80% are all about the same plus or minus depending on how much effort they put
into the job.
10% should be stacking shelves.
Most experienced check airmen will agree with these figures. It just shows that being a pilot is not rocket science and not like being a brain surgeon. It is a profession that hones it's members skills mainly by experience not the colour or type of licence nor how big the type rating.
I have been rated on 4 engined heavies to twin props and in my view the bigger the plane the easier it has been and the 10/80/10 split applies to them all.
I am not knocking pilots for wanting to get max money but this industry is changing and many pilots are not changing with it
.
I agree with about everything you say including the bits about unsafe rich pilots.
I am not a rich pilot, all I have done is own and run a professional charter company for 30 years and it has been one hell of a hard slog.
I have been a IRE/TRE (check airman to you) and have conducted hundreds of licence/rating renewals and have come to the conclusion about the pilot population as this
10% are superb aces
80% are all about the same plus or minus depending on how much effort they put
into the job.
10% should be stacking shelves.
Most experienced check airmen will agree with these figures. It just shows that being a pilot is not rocket science and not like being a brain surgeon. It is a profession that hones it's members skills mainly by experience not the colour or type of licence nor how big the type rating.
I have been rated on 4 engined heavies to twin props and in my view the bigger the plane the easier it has been and the 10/80/10 split applies to them all.
I am not knocking pilots for wanting to get max money but this industry is changing and many pilots are not changing with it
.
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hawker750
I’ve been out of town for a few days, sorry for the late reply.
Congratulations on a long and productive career! You have my upmost respect for having persevered for 30 years in one tough competitive business.
Like you I have also served as an instructor at the airline level having trained and evaluated hundreds of crews. Honestly at our airline the bottom percentage that you mentioned is only a fraction of the 10% you mentioned. They tend to weed themselves out long before they ever get this far along.
I suspect we probably agree on many more points than we disagree.
We disagree on the level of skill required and the percentage of the population possessing the ability to command a jet airliner. My reference to a 737 departing Cameroon at night with thunderstorms surrounding was referring to a specific accident that illustrated my position. I have lived and flown in Africa, so the region is of personal interest to me. Pilot training in a cross cultural setting and especially cross cultural CRM is of special interest to me.
In any case I am more than a decade younger than you and I have never run any sort of company nor employed a single pilot. So perhaps in a decade or two, with a little more experience, I will have come around to your position. In the mean time we just deferentially disagree on a few points.
Thanks for the interesting discussion.
Respectfully,
Northbeach
Congratulations on a long and productive career! You have my upmost respect for having persevered for 30 years in one tough competitive business.
Like you I have also served as an instructor at the airline level having trained and evaluated hundreds of crews. Honestly at our airline the bottom percentage that you mentioned is only a fraction of the 10% you mentioned. They tend to weed themselves out long before they ever get this far along.
I suspect we probably agree on many more points than we disagree.
We disagree on the level of skill required and the percentage of the population possessing the ability to command a jet airliner. My reference to a 737 departing Cameroon at night with thunderstorms surrounding was referring to a specific accident that illustrated my position. I have lived and flown in Africa, so the region is of personal interest to me. Pilot training in a cross cultural setting and especially cross cultural CRM is of special interest to me.
In any case I am more than a decade younger than you and I have never run any sort of company nor employed a single pilot. So perhaps in a decade or two, with a little more experience, I will have come around to your position. In the mean time we just deferentially disagree on a few points.
Thanks for the interesting discussion.
Respectfully,
Northbeach
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as i wrote... it is not just about money. but one needs to make a living and sorry but less than 6000 dollars ( with the current xchange rate especially ) for a captain with a responsibility of almost 200 souls is just well underpaid.
for your info, in my previous job i averaged 15000 usd in a month... ok that was maybe also a bit on the high side.... and it also depends about what else is included etc...
though it is funny to see how people here react if someone speaks up and judge and conclude in a split second, where psychologues needs hours and days and dont find out....
anyway all the best to the super captains with the decency and esteem to fly as pestalozzis...
for your info, in my previous job i averaged 15000 usd in a month... ok that was maybe also a bit on the high side.... and it also depends about what else is included etc...
though it is funny to see how people here react if someone speaks up and judge and conclude in a split second, where psychologues needs hours and days and dont find out....
anyway all the best to the super captains with the decency and esteem to fly as pestalozzis...
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Not aware that they were hiring expats for the B737, my understanding is that due to union issues the expatriate hiring is only limited to E170 Captains. The B737, 767 and 777 exclusive to nationals.
