Recently redundant and buying a rating?

[4whites]

I've recently been laid off by a light turboprop operator. I qualified late last year and was very fortunate to have networked my way into the right hand seat of UK turboprop airline. To date I have 500 hours (420 excluding sim time), of that 200 hours are on a 7.5 tonne turboprop. I got turned down by Ryanair earlier this year and so that option is closed off to me. An FI rating is pointless at the moment as there are no students to teach and despite driving around the UK for the past three weeks giving my CV to anyone who would take it there are just no jobs to be had.

I'm ashamed to say that I am on the verge of doing a 737EFIS & NG rating with 300 hours on type. I will go anywhere for a job and having spoken to a variety of 737 operators in Eastern Europe and Africa it would seem that there are reasonable opportunities for jobs and I would be considered. However, something just doesn't sit right with me.

I'm not experienced enough to be confident of sitting the recession out as I think my grand total of 420 hours won't put me to the front of any queues particularly as my training was 'patchwork' modular with a CPL done in the UK and an IR done in Spain.

I don't want to say that I'm on the verge of packing the whole thing in, but I'm feeling so hopeless at the moment and this 737TR + 300 hours seems like my only way forward.

I'd be most appreciative of any advice. As this would be my second job I didn't think it belongs in the 'Wannabe' section.

[TheBeak]

I wrote this this evening in the Ryanair section of the wannabes area:

As I have said really think about what you are getting in to, the 737 Tr is absolutely f-ing useless unless you have ALOT of hours and then it is just f-ing useless - unless you want to work in one of the worlds arsehol*s or for one of the worlds arsehol*s. Turkey? Nigeria? Indonesia? The Emirates really? Ryanair? Wonderful, well worth the effort.

Don't waste your money, hold tight, better things are around the corner - whenever that corner maybe. Fools rush in where angels fear to tread.

I know your feeling very well mate. Do you really want to go and work in one of those countries? It's a life changing decision. If you feel you must do a TR you'd be better off going Airbus. You would however be better off doing neither unless you have bags of cash. If the airlines had any need then you wouldn't have to pay.

it would seem that there are reasonable opportunities for jobs and I would be considered

Is that enough to spend another £30K?

Hold tight, resilience is the name of the game.

[Finals19]

Hold tight, resilience is the name of the game.

Amen to that.

4 Whites...

I feel your pain mate. Three years ago I was flying Air Taxi (Chieftains admittedly not TP's) in Canada and I rolled the dice at the time and came back here to convert. I had decent enough prospects out there, but at the time the market here looked buoyant as indeed was the case during my ATPL conversion and writtens.

I was then fortunate enough to have an interview with a large UK carrier through a referral. Sim checked and passed I was told I would be contacted v soon for a start date for the TR. Then all of a sudden - WHAM - recession. I have been waiting 12 months now and will probably wait some more yet.

I have been desperate as to what to do. I consider myself lucky as the chance of that bonded TR is still there, all though god knows when. We all just want to get on with our lives, all while our other halves / families sit there and watch us, wondering what we are doing!

I honestly can't see the point in dropping £30K right now. There's a ton of 737 / Airbus guys out there laid off right now. Unless you have some kind of golden "in" I would really stand off. Do anything to keep current - I have managed to find some part time light a/c flying work and thats really about the best you can do right now.

[4whites]

I really appreciate your quick reply, thanks. I would consider going to one of these backwater type places for a year or two if it got me enough time on type to get me back to the UK. However, I worry about how these hours will be viewed by the type of company I'd like to join in the future.

My other option is to convert to FAA and do some multi time building in the USA while doing a desk job etc out there, with a view to getting a job with the US regionals when they start hiring in the future. I have dual British/American nationality so that side of things wouldn't be an issue.

[BigNumber]

Are you absolutely certain that you have exhausted every last option using your existing TP rating? (Including those operated in far away shores).

Perhaps if you tell us which type somone may have an idea as yet not explored.

I wish you every success whatever course of action you elect to follow.

BN

[4whites]

I'm Jetstream 31/32 type rated at the moment. I've contacted literally EVERY operator of the type in Europe without a single reply. Another friend of mine who I did my type rating with was sacked from his job in the Channel Islands on the J31 back in May and he's found the same, however he's secured a 737 job in Romania. What a time to be a pilot!

[Knee Trembler]

For what it's worth, my experience / advice. Steer well clear of any rating that is not connected contractually with a job.

I can only echo the comment that there are LOTS of people out there with B737 and A320 ratings at the moment and having hours is very little help.

I was at the Flybe assessment last year and three of the four of us had over 5000 hrs mainly on 737 or similar. As far as I know, noone has been called out of the hold pool yet.

I was out of work for two years 2004 - 2006 and only got back into flying by self funding a rating (737), so I can fully understand the pressure you are under. However, to reiterate, the market looks very different now compared to three years ago. Then, I had the choice between Globespan and Excel/XL.

To be positive, there are at least a few jobs in Europe. At the moment Wizz seems to be a possibility. Otherwise, just sit on your cash and keep looking at PPJN and PPRUNE.

One last word, doing a type rating is hard at the best of times, I personally feel that coming to the end and, not having a job and having even more debt could be enough to push someone over the edge. Please do think carefully before taking this step.

Very best wishes,

KT

[powdermonkey]

4Whites

Am in exactly the same boat as you, same hours on turboprops (+20T) and nothing is biting out there! I considered the Ryans, just so I could keep flying, however the costs are simply too high, I can't pay 2 TR's in less than two years it would be insane!
So my genius strategy is simply to wait it out.....things will turn around, lucky for me I have no mortgage/family, although I the loss of hours is killing me at the moment, I can't justify further debt! It will take a while, my best hope at the moment is a contract which may see me back flying in 9/12 months!
In the meantime I try and study my fcoms and procedures...lol can't even get work on the ground at the airport!

[Guttn]

Since you have dual citizenship, the US of Aviation might just be your back door out of your current crisis. Do a conversion to the FAA Commercial/IR/SE+ME and get a CFI/CFII certificate along with it. Yes, I know it`s cr@p over there too, but if you can get hired as a CFI somewhere (anywhere really) and also have the opportunity to get some part 135 flying on the side, I`m sure you`ll be in a much better position when the recession ends. BTW, look EVERYWHERE in the US Bush flying in AK is in any case better than bush flying in Africa.

In any circumstance DO NOT pay for a typerating, as there is absolutely nO GUARANTEE for a job at the end. Especially since the 737 has become so popular, and "everybody" is doing it or has done it. Now "everybody" have to compete for a lot fewer jobs for their given typerating. What`s worse is that a lot of these 737 typed pilots also have a couple of years experience ON TYPE.

Sometimes the path isn`t as straight forward as you would have liked. Right now it sucks a couple of big ones , but it all depends on how you view things. Do you think positively or negatively? Is the glass half empty or half full? Do you even need a full glass???!? Is the journey or the ending the most satisfying? Getting a bit philosofical here, but my point is to try and not let the recession drag you down with it. We`ve all been in that same position, and a lot of times there is a great leap of faith involved in order to succeed.

My best advice is to do what feels right. Gut feeling and fly by the seat of your pants. Keep it coordinated

[Piece of Cake]

It would be better to pursue othe Jetstream operators outside of Europe (Try Africa/South America/Asia). Also if like you said, it maybe a good idea to go FAA as there are still some Jetstream operators in North America. Paying for a 737 rating is just money down the drain unless you have a confirmed job in writing with an operator. There are just too many experinced pilots outhere at the moment with 1000s of hours on type.

I would suggest firstly, if you haven't done so already, get in touch with BAE Systems Regional Aircraft Division and ask them if it is possible for them to send you a list of all the operators of the J31/32 worldwide. If you then got a job with an outfit in some far away land, you wouldn't be bonded so you could then leave to go elsewhere when the job market picks up again in a couple of years.

Secondly, if you are that desperate to pay for a rating, then do it on an aircraft type where there would be less competition in the job market (e.g. EMB170/190/195). Or try and get a job with an airline's ops/crewing department or similar. Not only will you learn a lot there but it will keep you in contact with the industry and is a good way to get "a foot in the door" so to speak.

Thridly, I wouldn't worry too much about being "patchwork modular" now, most airlines would look at a candidate as how much of a training risk they would be. i.e. does this person have a realisitc chance of getting through the training? The fact that you have a MPA type rating already shows that you can do it.

I wish you all the best of luck.

[woodcoc2000]

just thinking out loud here.. What sort of situation would Three Whites or anyone else like him be in if they did pay for their TR and found after a year or 18 months that they still had no work?? would there be currency issues and how would they/how much would it cost to keep it current for longer term considerations?? Even if they did recurrents in the sim would employers look at the date of the initial TR and decide it was done too long ago to be of value without experience in the actual aircraft??

No one would expect to pay for a TR and find a job now; but what would be the long term implications??

THanks

[4whites]

Thanks guys. Some great input and very much appreciated. I would not be considering this 737 rating and hours unless I was desperate and I sway dramatically between doing it and not doing it. I do have a few options for possible jobs (nothing set in stone) but all of these are a long way from home. However, I'm willing to take them just to get back in the game and to be clocking up the hours.

At the moment I have two real options. Either build hours in a single piston at a minimum of £90 per hour wet, not including landing fees etc so let's call it £110 an hour. 300 hours of SEP time is therefore going to cost me £33k. OR I do a 737 rating and do 300 hours on that the total cost of which is £25k with an option to extend to 500 hours for an extra £3,500. Purely as an hour building excercise it makes sense to me, and I can see it making me more employable in 12 months time when I've done the rating and all the hours. But as I've said, something just doesn't sit right with me and I abhor pay to fly schemes in general. However, they seem to be the new norm and if I don't do it, some other shmuck will.

I should also add, 'Daddy' isn't paying for this, but nor will I need to get in debt. My training was funded by careful saving and a very lucky break early last year.

[4whites]

Thanks for all the input guys, it really is appreciated. As I've said, something just doesn't sit easy with me about the whole thing, I abhor pay to fly and always have. However I'm trying to look at this objectively too. I need to keep building my hours.

I can either do a 737 rating + 300 hours on type for £25k, or look to do a similar amount of time on a SEP and pay £33k!! I also have the option of extending the 737 time to 500 hours. So from an hours building perspective, this is the cheapest in a very odd way. 1,000 hours of which 200 is tp and 500 jet is a lot more attractive than 500 hours of which only 200 is tp. I would also anticipate coming back into the job market next spring/summer, when hopefully things might be taking a turn for the better.

I'm willing to go anywhere to work. I want to return to the UK in a few years when it's time to have a family, but at the moment my wife is stuck in her job overseas and so it doesn't really matter where I am as I'll still get to see her just as often.

I should add that I'm not spending any of 'Mummy and Daddy's' money. Through some good fortune I've been able to save for all of my training.

As I say, something doesn't sit right with me about the whole thing. I hate the thought of doing it, but I need to stay in the game and I'm struggling to come up with other ideas. If I don't do a rating and buy the time, some other schmuck will and I'll be left behind. Such is the disgusting reality of the industry these days.

[Nearly Man]

4whites

There is an agency that's doing an A320 rating plus 50hrs line training with a major UK carrier. There's some A320 work in India, China or Wizzair and you may just have the Turbine hours to get in. Either way it's a big risk. I don't have the experience that some guys have on here but I would have to think really hard about getting a rating.
However, if it were a rating you'd be after it's got to be the Airbus!

All the best in your search

[twobitbob]

4 Whites,

Read this thread with some interest, I completed my ATPL/IR in Sept 2001. Needless to say it was very difficult to find a job at the time. I tend to agree about holding out from buying a type rating, peers did but I simply couldn't afford to. I held out, until a right time / right place situation; and I landed a job in the far east in July 2005. All my course-mates who had difficulties getting a job during those dark times are now hanging on in there various outfits today.

Just my experience with holding out and not worrying too much about being "left behind"

2 Bit.

[Mister Geezer]

4whites

I am sorry to hear that you were made redundant and getting back on the job ladder, is of course a lot harder in the tough times that we are in at the moment.

I found myself unemployed back in December, after the airline that I was working for went into administration. The one thing that I quickly established and perhaps quicker than my colleagues, was that I needed to look outside of the UK and perhaps Europe for the best chance of getting employed again. I therefore found it interesting when you said:

despite driving around the UK for the past three weeks giving my CV to anyone who would take it there are just no jobs to be had.

Out of the colleagues that I worked with at my last outfit, less than 5 percent are working in the UK and the rest like me are now working abroad. I don't view this as a long term move and it is simply a stop gap until things improve back home. However if you can get some flying done and qualify for non residency status during your spell out of the UK, then you can perhaps do quite nicely during the economic slump.

I would advise against going onto a new type at the moment. There are pools of pilots out there who are rated on Boeing or Airbus equipment and I suspect that this pool will expand further before it retracts. Stick to the type your on and hunt down every operator in the world who has them. E-mail, fax, phone and do what ever you can to make contact and get your name known. It paid dividends for me and if you look hard enough then there are job out there. That is what I always said to myself and it managed to keep me focused when I sometimes felt I was bashing my head against a brick wall.

Best of luck!

[BigNumber]

4whites,

Check for PM

[Mondeoman]

4 whites

Give Wizz a try, they still give low hours guys a chance and at least you will only (sorry about the only !) have to pay out 15000 euro. At the end of it you will have a relatively secure job. Check out the web site.
New guys are still arriving all the time.

Good luck.

[thrashley]

Wise words from Mr Geezer... having been in that situation, keep looking and something will crop up.

Good luck.

[Lubeoil]

I would advise not to purchase a type rating at the moment. There is a glut of B737 rated pilots looking for work and at the moment not very many positions for such pilots. If the TRTOs get desperate for business maybe this would bring down the charges for the ratings. Personally I think most jet ratings are a rip off at current prices.