How has the life of an airline pilot really changed??

[NOT ORANGE]

I think with an unfunded public sector pension liability of 1trillion pounds and the government borrowing from China, Japan etc who will pull the rug at some point,everyone in the UK will have an equally rosy retirement to look forward to!

[swish266]

About the time I put the picture of B767 maiden flight on the wall

(It was a fold-out from AW&ST) I saw a documentary about the life of an Airline Captain in America:
This guy was standing in front of a huge house on a lake, with a boat garage and about half a dozen cars (Merc included) parked in front. He also spoke of his other toy plane... After having put 3 kids through Uni...
15 years latter the highest earners in America (US Air) were taking home 180k on the average.
In 2008 I will earn altogether 110k EUR
I can kill when I go through security at LHR
I had a green hydr fail over the desert last week. Spoke via satphone to Engineering, got some chat via ACARS. Tough shivvv...
14000h
9000PIC (7000 on B767)
Currently Big Bus Driver.
Do your Maths...

[whatdoesthisbuttondo]

I'm surprised at how many people are flying around 900hrs a year.

I work for a UK operator and never fly more than 550 hours a year and have a final salary pension. I expect there are many thousands of other U.K. based pilots in the same situation or better as me.

The salaries certainly haven't 'kept up' since the 70s or 80s. I think pay wise UK pilots in the '80s used to compare their salaries to GPs or even consultants.

I expect the general technology available to us makes a big difference. I can video chat to my kids when abroad or use skype etc. That must make things better than in the '70s.

The kit we operate must be easier to get along with. Tracking airways with just VORs and a basic autopilot must be much harder than todays LNAV VNAV flying.

[Mr. Hat]

I fly with a guy that had the good ol' days. When I ask hin about them first he laughs shaking his head then looking out the window. He tells me in intricate detail of the service - the meals and the respect. By the end of the conversation he's eyes are a bit glassy.

Stange though respect is free.

Lets face it its better than working 5 days a week but the gap is closing and there will come a time where it just won't be worth it anymore.

[JJflyer]

Howsit changed

A lot.

My Father had a 33 year carreer with a single good airline up in the north. Good service onboard, ID tickets, good salary, good conditions and has a nice pention. He retired in 1987 at age 53, a year and a half before he had to. 23000 hours total including military and other flying for 37 years average if 621h a year.

Long haul for the last years I've just recently gone to short haul with a different company. 900h a year every year to the minute since 2002 with maximun duty times as well. I get paid peanuts and bananas. They treat me like a mushroom (Keep me in dark and feed me with s.hit). I can buy water and coffee onboard our flights and pay for tickets home from base and accomodation there. Companies offer no pention, no retirement. My salary has been in a constant decline since I started flying. I make less as a TRI/Captain today than I made as an S/O in the 90's.

Still when the door closes I like the flying part. I like to see the sunrise over the Atlantic going Eastbound as the flight is coming to and end and bed is closer. I like the many cities around the world with my favourite hangouts and places to go and things to do. I hate the beancounter management types and the b.astards that ruined the industry with pay for training, paying for uniforms and water and flying for food. I dislike not getting paid a full salary during training, living in garbage hotels and having 24h travel times to bases with trains, planes and automobiles all combined so that the company can save a few bob. The MOL's, Wolfes etc that have destroyed a good job and made it akin to driving a dumpster truck with salaries not all that far to follow.

I am happy that I saw the golden days with my father and I am equally happy that he has his memories from those times. Indeed he is surprised when I tell some of the stories to him on how things are today.

[FAStoat]

Apart from the salaries ,FTLs,No longer final salary pensions,no crew meals,poor quality hotels,what else that has been discussed that I have missed????THE FLYING PART.I have thought of nothing but flying since I could read and write!My parents set up a farm in Kenya after the War,so I was brought up by my mothers Brothers Family.My Uncle Bert,was left out on a limb by my family,as he had "shirked the War".Yet he had an enormous amount of flying anecdotes and took me in a Proctor for my first flight in 1949 at White Waltham!!So what on eath was my family telling me about him.They all were dreadfully envious of him,as it happened.They had run an established family engineering business since 1910,and were adjudged to be "Reserved Occupation".My Uncle was not carrying the main family name,so was sidelined in the Company.In 1942,he joined the Empire Flying Training course in Canada and the US ,having enlisted in the RN,Air Branch.So he shirked the War,by not staying with the rest of them at home,but had gone to away and left the family to do his own thing and FLY for his country.He ended up in the Pacific,and instead of coming back home in 45,he was stuck repatriating POWs from India and Australasia until 47.When he did come back there were no jobs,certainly no flying jobs,so he was told he could only get a job working again for the family company,but in a reduced position!!His family ended up looking after my sister and myself,although we were all sent to boarding school at an early age.He took me to Farnborough every year until his untimely death,and introduced me to the Fairey Test Pilots Office and staff at White Waltham,because he knew them all,and was having an affair with peter Twiss's Secretary!!.Thus was started my lust for flying.I ended up with over 42 years of it,but having strugglled to get a Civilian licence in the late 70s with an Avigation Course on ERT-My wife telling me "I thought you were a Pilot,so wheres the job?"I only got the Licence by going to Oxford..To get a job,I had to go to Nigeria,and that was pot luck,as I knew the Deputy Chief Test Pilot from DeHavilland,and he got me a course and an intro into Exec Flying.As I had been a reaonable "Handling "Pilot,I thoroughly enjoyed the flying.I got an early command and in the 80s Airlines were recruiting,so I joined a superb Airline as Captain on a Turboprop.No Autopilt,Prop Synch,Cold cockpits,ADFs that had pencil marks to get the strongest frequency reception,and Training Captains that encouraged you to make the most money you could for the Company!There was an actual buzz to recover delays left over from previous crews.As Captain of your Aeroplane,Like a Ships Captain,you made the decisions,and could tell the Ground Handling and Refuellers exactly what the score was if they were causing totally uneccessary delays.Very little PC in those days,and the flying was superb!A typical approach into Guernsey,was to report IMC the North West tip of the Island,on Radar, descending to 1500 ft and request left base join to the ILS 5 Miles at 220 kts.We could land and disembark our 52 pax,before the BM or BA had made the marker from their 20 mile finals approach.When we got the Jets,this continued,until suddenly things changed,and new young bloods from the Big Airlines,arrived to get commands when they were still ten years away where they had come from.The ideas from the big Airlines arrived and PROFILES were to be the norm.The standard of our Crews was excellent,and anyone on line could fly to the standard set down by the bosses-All pilots themselves!The standard then was dropped to be able to cope with abinitio Airline Pilots with frozen ATPLs.These guys,not their fault,could not be expected to fly outside the tramlines,as laid down,as they could and would get into trouble without the experience to get themselves out of it-Their Captains were now the young bloods,but lacking years of experience.Going into Amsterdam for example,our Airline had "Bullet Crews"There used to be layers of Aircraft stacked at "Sugal",and as we were doingshuttle flights,the delays would snowball.Crews were encouraged to think on their feet.If the main runway was 19,we did an ILS to 27 and broke left on short final visual to land on 24,which had no aids.The Alpha and Bravo stands were dead ahead,so we more than made up times,and ATC actual asked if you could accept a " Bullet crew approach",meaning the break off for 24.Things began to change rapidly,and as we got more Jets,then more and more came from the main Airline as direct entry Captains with the same ideas-Standardisation on Profiles-"so help you GOD"!!No longer were the flights the same,and new first officers were actually asking why some of us were departing from the Profile to get the job done,when all we had to do was to claim the delay was an ATC problem.After trying to explain the delay snowball effecting to subsequent crews,the matter did not stop there,but went to the new Fleet Manager-A young blood.There is nothing wrong in standardisation,if the Beancounters,who are now running the Airline as the Pilot Management has retired or removed,are aware that now some delay problems can not be resolved and future delays to schedules are unavoidable.The old guys got pissed off,as the first excuse for a delay was taken with both hands by crews,and further delays would be inevitable,so why bother to be concerned about it??No one now seemed to think that PROFITS had to be made to keep you flying??Beancounters do though,and they continue to try by reducing the things that make flying tolerable under modern conditions-the Perks have been eroded to nothing!!You cant take the fuel you wanted!You have to go by the route given you,even if the have the Cockpit shattered by Hail and the leading edge drilled by a machine gun of hail stones.Things have really changed,but that is called progress.A very smart computer games kid will do a much better job than I could , flying his computer driven office from A-B without ever getting out of his locked in working environment.He will not be able to release his stresses as we could,and his socalled Flying Skills will have to be left to a little private aeroplane than he can hardly afford,to do proper flying.I am glad I am out of it,I am afraid, and I reckon I was 5 years too late in joining the Commercial Flying World.Those before me,enjoyed almost all their time,when Glamour was Glamour,and to be a Pilot was a respected profession.

[bfisk]

Don't know how things were in the past, but I got my first commercial job a couple of months back.

I already have the complete roster for all of 2009 (will have christmas off!), with 143 days schedule (that's a lot of time off!). PCs and medical not included on this but that will only add up to max another few days...

TR paid by company, pay during training, expecting to gross about €50-60k next year.

Good work environment, nice colleagues, expecting to fly about 300-400 hours pr year, or so.


At 22 and on dead bottom of the seniority list, I'm not complaining :--)

[powerstall]

...... putting it in 2 words.... getting worse.

[FAStoat]

I wish every success to those now thinking of embarking on an Aviation career.