How has the life of an airline pilot really changed??
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In a way we are our own worst enemy in the way we react to certain scenario's. We're meant to be rational thinkers but most of the time I see a group of whining children throwing toys out of the pram.
There are a host of other issues that could drag this thread down to a schoolboy argument, however thankfully it is not at that stage yet!
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It's all about quality of life...
In the US for example it is rare to have a crew member live anywhere near they are based. Commuting and night stopping still plays a integral part in the daily lives of our friends in the US.
It isn't RARE to live at your domicile here in the US. Prior to 2001, there were plenty of empty cabin seats and jumpseats available for commuting to work. With US operators cutting back on excess capacity, the cockpit jumpseat availability is getting tighter, especially if you're trying to get an off-line jumpseat. Depending upon the domicile, I wouldn't be surprised if about 50% or more UPS pilots live within 100 miles of their domicile.
Now, I've been flying mostly international here at UPS, so obviously overnights are part of the game. When I go flying, it's unique compared to the US legacy carriers, because I leave SDF (Louisville, KY) and go to points beyond and don't return to my domicile for eight to 13 days. Of course that means only one or two reports per month, and that's exactly what I want. Most US legacy (passenger) carriers international pairing are usually there and back with a layover at the outstation, except for NWA (now Delta), when flying inter-Asia from the NRT hub.
UPS now has a pilot domicile in Anchorage. It's pretty junior for the MD11. Most of the trips are short, 3-4 days (example: ANC-PVG-ANC). Therefore you'd have several commutes per month, and it's a tough commute from the lower 48. Limited cabin seats, and with the FedEx domicile, lots of competition for the cockpit jumpseats. So many of our ANC pilots moved to that domicile.
With the hub/spoke system prevalent for most US pax and cargo carriers, it's routine for crews to overnight at the outstation to fly that first bank inbound to the hub (early morning for PAX, late evening for cargo). Here at UPS, we do have some line purity, so if you actually live in the outstation you could be home every day (and you're still on the clock!). That's a tough bet now since we change aircraft to cover lift requirements at the drop of a hat, but many guys do it.
Our UPS MD11s are now starting to fly SHORT domestic legs, overnighting at the outstation:
MEM-SDF-MEM Memphis-Louisville
STL-SDF-STL St. Louis
ORD-SDF-ORD Chicago
The FACT that this puts a cycle (with its maintenance requirements) on the MD isn't a concern, we need the lift. If we had to we'd put an A380 on the leg. I'm sticking with the long international leg to the hotel lifestyle.
PS. I moved to my domicile "temporarily" when I was a new hire over 18 years ago. Never moved!
It isn't RARE to live at your domicile here in the US. Prior to 2001, there were plenty of empty cabin seats and jumpseats available for commuting to work. With US operators cutting back on excess capacity, the cockpit jumpseat availability is getting tighter, especially if you're trying to get an off-line jumpseat. Depending upon the domicile, I wouldn't be surprised if about 50% or more UPS pilots live within 100 miles of their domicile.
Now, I've been flying mostly international here at UPS
, so obviously overnights are part of the game. When I go flying, it's unique compared to the US legacy carriers, because I leave SDF (Louisville, KY) and go to points beyond and don't return to my domicile for eight to 13 days. Of course that means only one or two reports per month, and that's exactly what I want. Most US legacy (passenger) carriers international pairing are usually there and back with a layover at the outstation, except for NWA (now Delta), when flying inter-Asia from the NRT hub.UPS now has a pilot domicile in Anchorage. It's pretty junior for the MD11. Most of the trips are short, 3-4 days (example: ANC-PVG-ANC). Therefore you'd have several commutes per month, and it's a tough commute from the lower 48. Limited cabin seats, and with the FedEx domicile, lots of competition for the cockpit jumpseats. So many of our ANC pilots moved to that domicile.
With the hub/spoke system prevalent for most US pax and cargo carriers, it's routine for crews to overnight at the outstation to fly that first bank inbound to the hub (early morning for PAX, late evening for cargo). Here at UPS, we do have some line purity, so if you actually live in the outstation you could be home every day (and you're still on the clock!). That's a tough bet now since we change aircraft to cover lift requirements at the drop of a hat, but many guys do it.
Our UPS MD11s are now starting to fly SHORT domestic legs, overnighting at the outstation:
MEM-SDF-MEM Memphis-Louisville
STL-SDF-STL St. Louis
ORD-SDF-ORD Chicago
The FACT that this puts a cycle (with its maintenance requirements) on the MD isn't a concern, we need the lift. If we had to we'd put an A380 on the leg. I'm sticking with the long international leg to the hotel lifestyle.
PS. I moved to my domicile "temporarily" when I was a new hire over 18 years ago. Never moved!
One of the great things about the job is the ability to live far from your base. Long may it continue. There aren't many jobs that allow you to be based in the UK but live in Oz or NZ. (Or vice versa)
Commuting within Oz or between Oz and NZ is now very difficult if you work for one of the local carriers. Here we have a 'standard industry exemption' to the CAO which governs flight and duty times, and surprise surprise, most operators have taken it on board.
All the rules require for time off is that you have a day with two consecutive 'local nights' free of duty in each week. A 'local night' is between 2300 and 0500 local. Bottom line is you are only guaranteed 36 hours free of duty each week, and it always seems that they manage to roster a late finish preceding the day off followed by an early start after the day off.
Some operators even require you to be in a position to report to more than one airport for duty - travelling at own expense. Examples would be Gold Coast or Brisbane in Qld, Avalon or Tullamarine in Vic. It really limits where it is practical to live. Fortunately it's a nice part of the world anyway. When on reserve, they expect you to be able to report within two hours of being called.
Recently I was approached by an airline recruiting agenct desperate for captains for a NZ base. As soon as I mentioned the c-word, I was told in no uncertain terms that it would not be allowed.
All the rules require for time off is that you have a day with two consecutive 'local nights' free of duty in each week. A 'local night' is between 2300 and 0500 local. Bottom line is you are only guaranteed 36 hours free of duty each week, and it always seems that they manage to roster a late finish preceding the day off followed by an early start after the day off.
Some operators even require you to be in a position to report to more than one airport for duty - travelling at own expense. Examples would be Gold Coast or Brisbane in Qld, Avalon or Tullamarine in Vic. It really limits where it is practical to live. Fortunately it's a nice part of the world anyway. When on reserve, they expect you to be able to report within two hours of being called.
Recently I was approached by an airline recruiting agenct desperate for captains for a NZ base. As soon as I mentioned the c-word, I was told in no uncertain terms that it would not be allowed.
the ability to live far from your base
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Guys & gals,
It has been very interesting listening to the debates emerging. I personally feel that yes there were the "glory" days of flying T&C's but they were a very very long time ago. There are very few pilots left on that system. The truth is very few industries offer the same T&C's today as they did a few decades ago.
Times are changing. We are at a different age now where anyone, regardless of their profession can't reley on their company to look after them in their old age. You have to make your own arrangements to boost your company pension. I'm sure switched on chaps such as us can work that out.
Interestingly I work with allot of ex RAF guys whom expect an RAF pension, which isn't as lucrative as eg a BA pension however I do not here them winging as they have their own investments and fall backs that they have arranged privately.
Lets look at the facts to what the job is like today. Yes it isn't as well paid and easy going on hours as it was 30 years ago but it is now 2008!!!
I personally work for a shorthaul operator in the UK and I earn allot more than many of my piers from other professions. Also I have never worked a full week in my life. In a previous life I was used to long hours and hard work so this life is a doddle. In the winter I work 5 days a month!!! I earn a full salary for that (less flight pay granted) so I can not moan a bit.
I don't have a great pension like in the old days but I earn a good salary to boost other investments etc. I will retire happy and financially comfortable. In this day and age they will bever get rid of aircraft - are jobs long term are safe. The current troubles are not worse than in other industries, its just many pilots seem to not appreciate other area's of business.
Its is true if I one the lottery, I would still fly
It has been very interesting listening to the debates emerging. I personally feel that yes there were the "glory" days of flying T&C's but they were a very very long time ago. There are very few pilots left on that system. The truth is very few industries offer the same T&C's today as they did a few decades ago.
Times are changing. We are at a different age now where anyone, regardless of their profession can't reley on their company to look after them in their old age. You have to make your own arrangements to boost your company pension. I'm sure switched on chaps such as us can work that out.
Interestingly I work with allot of ex RAF guys whom expect an RAF pension, which isn't as lucrative as eg a BA pension however I do not here them winging as they have their own investments and fall backs that they have arranged privately.
Lets look at the facts to what the job is like today. Yes it isn't as well paid and easy going on hours as it was 30 years ago but it is now 2008!!!
I personally work for a shorthaul operator in the UK and I earn allot more than many of my piers from other professions. Also I have never worked a full week in my life. In a previous life I was used to long hours and hard work so this life is a doddle. In the winter I work 5 days a month!!! I earn a full salary for that (less flight pay granted) so I can not moan a bit.
I don't have a great pension like in the old days but I earn a good salary to boost other investments etc. I will retire happy and financially comfortable. In this day and age they will bever get rid of aircraft - are jobs long term are safe. The current troubles are not worse than in other industries, its just many pilots seem to not appreciate other area's of business.
Its is true if I one the lottery, I would still fly
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It is true if I one the lottery, I would still fly
If you want to get conditions and salary as great as it used to be many years ago in aviation, if you want to visit many cities in wonderful 5 star hotels, have much more than minimum rest, and fly less than 350 hours a year and have lots of free time at home, go and fly cargo.
Handflown....Ask those non whinging RAF guys if they would complain if the pension that they were promised and expecting was cut by a third? I'm sure the whinge quotient would rise. However, they have a gold plated pension guaranteed by the UK taxpayer.
I guess it is a matter of opinion. Are they more worthy than the other hundreds of thousands on goldplated tax funded pensions? I'm sure the office wallahs could justify their importance until the cows come home too.
However, the original question stands. How many of them would start complaining if the gold plated pension they were promised was suddenly reduced by a third " due to market conditions" and changes in longevity?
I would bet my pension most of them.That is the point I was trying to make, not as to whether they earned it or not. We all earn our pensions. Let 's not forget that a pension is deferred pay.
However, the original question stands. How many of them would start complaining if the gold plated pension they were promised was suddenly reduced by a third " due to market conditions" and changes in longevity?
I would bet my pension most of them.That is the point I was trying to make, not as to whether they earned it or not. We all earn our pensions. Let 's not forget that a pension is deferred pay.
the lunatic fringe
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30 Years in aviation, 21 years in BA, with 10 years longhaul. 747-100/200 and now 747-400.
One of the biggest changes is communication. When we left London 20 years ago, we were largely on our own. Airborne it was HF communications with London, and that was variable at best. Now with Satellite communication, and ACARS. Live monitoring of all aspects of the operation mean you are never alone.. It gives you unrivalled access to technical advice and information. Have an engine problem? Engineering can suck the real time data out the CMC, and tell you what they see. On the downside, all that information just muddies the water.
Once on the ground the Internet, Skype, and Mobile Phones mean you are always in contact with home. In the "olden days" once you left London, the wife struggled to communicate with you, and you with her.
Talking to home on the HF via Portishead was not a rewarding experience.
All good and bad, but mostly good.
One of the biggest changes is communication. When we left London 20 years ago, we were largely on our own. Airborne it was HF communications with London, and that was variable at best. Now with Satellite communication, and ACARS. Live monitoring of all aspects of the operation mean you are never alone.. It gives you unrivalled access to technical advice and information. Have an engine problem? Engineering can suck the real time data out the CMC, and tell you what they see. On the downside, all that information just muddies the water.
Once on the ground the Internet, Skype, and Mobile Phones mean you are always in contact with home. In the "olden days" once you left London, the wife struggled to communicate with you, and you with her.
Talking to home on the HF via Portishead was not a rewarding experience.
All good and bad, but mostly good.
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What has changed over 40 years
A LOT!
In 1968 your chances of getting a Hawker Hunter was 1: 200 and the cost of a CPL equalled the price of 2 Jag E types ( with a 1:70 chance of an airline job), but .....if you made it all the way to the national carrier you had the choice among unlimited CAs ( with free samples), lucrative stationings abroad (pick any house back home for the taxfree allowances) or fly short haul with earliest DEP 0800 and back before dinner - and the prospect of the equivalent to a 2 million Euro pension fund at retirement age 55.
But...unless you flew the latest hardware you had to negotiate the Pond with wierd LR nav systems and ADFs, your handflying skills could make the difference between success and disaster, and early jet engines (not to speak of pistons) had a boring tendency to flame out, stall, explode or what else... and you were there all alone with no back up (and no interference).
AND NOT A LOT
There were still crises in 69,73,80,89,2001 and every time the entire industry (maybe except LH) was taken by total surprise only surpassed a few years later when the next upswing came and no pilots were to be found (because we had been fired and some found a real job in the meantime). The pay has always been governed by supply-demand and in the early jet days the demand wastly exceeded the few military jet-jocks available, hence the Prime Minister salaries. And ever since we complained that the good, old days were over...(and forgot when we had to sell everything to survive in the business)
BUT WHAT HAS CHANGED?
You are never lost, you rarely fly with a dead engine, few do flight planning/W+B/loading from scratch and you do not have to memorise exotic emergency checklists . Operation is a breeze today..
But...security can be a pain, slottimes can ruin your day, pax are flying at ungodly hours for no fees and the airline will only pay you a fraction of this no fee.
SO...as LEDERHOSEN pointed out spot on: We are many more today who can enjoy this line of work. But like in the IT-industry; when everybody can punch the right buttons the magic is gone and with it the big salaries.
And the big difference: Today they do not ground you at 55 or 60, so even as an old fart you can still pester the lives of the next generation aviators by almost true stories about the good, old days - and you will guaranteed have more cockpit time to do with!
In 1968 your chances of getting a Hawker Hunter was 1: 200 and the cost of a CPL equalled the price of 2 Jag E types ( with a 1:70 chance of an airline job), but .....if you made it all the way to the national carrier you had the choice among unlimited CAs ( with free samples), lucrative stationings abroad (pick any house back home for the taxfree allowances) or fly short haul with earliest DEP 0800 and back before dinner - and the prospect of the equivalent to a 2 million Euro pension fund at retirement age 55.
But...unless you flew the latest hardware you had to negotiate the Pond with wierd LR nav systems and ADFs, your handflying skills could make the difference between success and disaster, and early jet engines (not to speak of pistons) had a boring tendency to flame out, stall, explode or what else... and you were there all alone with no back up (and no interference).
AND NOT A LOT
There were still crises in 69,73,80,89,2001 and every time the entire industry (maybe except LH) was taken by total surprise only surpassed a few years later when the next upswing came and no pilots were to be found (because we had been fired and some found a real job in the meantime). The pay has always been governed by supply-demand and in the early jet days the demand wastly exceeded the few military jet-jocks available, hence the Prime Minister salaries. And ever since we complained that the good, old days were over...(and forgot when we had to sell everything to survive in the business)
BUT WHAT HAS CHANGED?
You are never lost, you rarely fly with a dead engine, few do flight planning/W+B/loading from scratch and you do not have to memorise exotic emergency checklists . Operation is a breeze today..
But...security can be a pain, slottimes can ruin your day, pax are flying at ungodly hours for no fees and the airline will only pay you a fraction of this no fee.
SO...as LEDERHOSEN pointed out spot on: We are many more today who can enjoy this line of work. But like in the IT-industry; when everybody can punch the right buttons the magic is gone and with it the big salaries.
And the big difference: Today they do not ground you at 55 or 60, so even as an old fart you can still pester the lives of the next generation aviators by almost true stories about the good, old days - and you will guaranteed have more cockpit time to do with!
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Off thread perhaps but........Parabellum I suspect your kind of experience is not seen as irrelevant, but rather ignored these days with such immediate access to medium jets as a first career type than it was over a decade ago. My career path at the end of my first ten years has been almost an exact replica of your own. Even down to the night Stornoways single crew. I am a whole lot more comfortable flying with First Officers who have broad single crew & differing type experience. Sadly they account for only about one in ten. In general, their prioritising of tasks tends to have a more ass-saving structure.
If you can accept having the single-crew-invincible attitude kicked out of you in your first two crew job (as I did), the grounding for the future is invaluable in keeping the rectal muscles taut in nervous situations.
If you can accept having the single-crew-invincible attitude kicked out of you in your first two crew job (as I did), the grounding for the future is invaluable in keeping the rectal muscles taut in nervous situations.
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I started flying in 1985 and secured my first job in 1988.
I remember those first few years with great fondness, I learned a huge amount from the ' old sweats ' that appeared to just know what to do, when to do it and how to achieve what they knew they could. The crews were such fun particularly down route with everybody out and about together. There was no better job in my opinion and I was living the dream.
Move forward twenty years!
I know sit on the left rather than the right, I impress safety and procedure and hope that I can communicate that I know what to do, when to do it and how to achieve what I know I can achieve for all on board.
I am treated as a dinosaur by the kids now running the cabin and sitting next to me. Down route you can have as much fun as you can without drinking (a major difference from 20 years ago).
I still have the best job but it has changed as I have. Remember the earliest days when you were first flying for the airlines, it was the best time as everything was new and you had arrived.
Everybody moans, rosters, crewing, time off, leave but for those who have just achieved their long term goal with huge debts, it is utopia.
I work for the same airline I started with which I know is rare, fly different airplanes from the beloved DC9 that I started out with but such is the ravage of time. I did not come from the joystick FBW generation but have experienced no issues converting to it. We fly nearer the annual limit than we did when I started but I still enjoy what I do, it has given my family a good living and I still like getting out of bed to go to work.
Has the life of an airline pilot really changed - we have computerised assistance making things easier, the systems are better developed, I believe the new guys are no better than I was when I started but much more computer savvy.
Oh and the main difference, I now drive an Audi A5 rather than a Vauxhall Chevette. Would I work in an office, no - NEVER. Let the sky embrace me and allow me to wonder at the last 20 years, thank you for my life, long may it continue.
I remember those first few years with great fondness, I learned a huge amount from the ' old sweats ' that appeared to just know what to do, when to do it and how to achieve what they knew they could. The crews were such fun particularly down route with everybody out and about together. There was no better job in my opinion and I was living the dream.
Move forward twenty years!
I know sit on the left rather than the right, I impress safety and procedure and hope that I can communicate that I know what to do, when to do it and how to achieve what I know I can achieve for all on board.
I am treated as a dinosaur by the kids now running the cabin and sitting next to me. Down route you can have as much fun as you can without drinking (a major difference from 20 years ago).
I still have the best job but it has changed as I have. Remember the earliest days when you were first flying for the airlines, it was the best time as everything was new and you had arrived.
Everybody moans, rosters, crewing, time off, leave but for those who have just achieved their long term goal with huge debts, it is utopia.
I work for the same airline I started with which I know is rare, fly different airplanes from the beloved DC9 that I started out with but such is the ravage of time. I did not come from the joystick FBW generation but have experienced no issues converting to it. We fly nearer the annual limit than we did when I started but I still enjoy what I do, it has given my family a good living and I still like getting out of bed to go to work.
Has the life of an airline pilot really changed - we have computerised assistance making things easier, the systems are better developed, I believe the new guys are no better than I was when I started but much more computer savvy.
Oh and the main difference, I now drive an Audi A5 rather than a Vauxhall Chevette. Would I work in an office, no - NEVER. Let the sky embrace me and allow me to wonder at the last 20 years, thank you for my life, long may it continue.
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Jox Thank you for your post.
I was very moved by it. I'm in the position you were in 20 years ago, (the new F/o.) I love my job very much and I wouldn't change anything about it. It's special. - We just have to ignore the idiots who are not special enough to deserve it. I have some excellent Captains who teach all of us so much. I dare say they are of your ilk.
Regards
WB
Bmir F/O
I was very moved by it. I'm in the position you were in 20 years ago, (the new F/o.) I love my job very much and I wouldn't change anything about it. It's special. - We just have to ignore the idiots who are not special enough to deserve it. I have some excellent Captains who teach all of us so much. I dare say they are of your ilk.
Regards
WB
Bmir F/O
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Pay has deteriorated.
T&Cs have deteriorated.
Self sponsored type-ratings are the norm.
Too many pilots, too little jobs.
Regulations have increased, thus increasing your chances of screwing up and getting your certificate pulled.
Respect for your position, as well as for you as a professional has been reduced.
Aircraft are more automated, but this also now makes you the flight engineer.
For all the Euro guys, please do not let things deteriorate over there, to the point they have in the U.S... lower then rock bottom.
T&Cs have deteriorated.
Self sponsored type-ratings are the norm.
Too many pilots, too little jobs.
Regulations have increased, thus increasing your chances of screwing up and getting your certificate pulled.
Respect for your position, as well as for you as a professional has been reduced.
Aircraft are more automated, but this also now makes you the flight engineer.
For all the Euro guys, please do not let things deteriorate over there, to the point they have in the U.S... lower then rock bottom.
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Portishead- I remember talking via HF from the Maternity unit to my better half en route somewhere distant just minutes after I'd given birth!! Wife of a longhaul pilot?Get used to spending time alone/giving birth alone etc etc..