EasyJet Holding Pool
Join Date: Jul 2001
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Good to see a bit of debate! I am very aware that the view of the orange world depends on which end of it you are at. The information I have given on here is meant to be factually accurate for the benefit of those swimming in the hold pool. It was not really meant to spark debate on the rights and wrongs of what is happening. I, foolishly it seems, took the view that people want facts about recruitment at easyJet. If you want other takes on the situation, there are no doubt plenty of others to guide you. I nonetheless stand by my view that the facts presented are just that.
Portside - I presume from your comments and debate that you are not currently an easyJet pilot but would like to become one. You seem to feel agrieved that BALPA failed to act to prevent the employment of cheap part-time pilots at easyJet. BALPA is not the management at easyJet - they can only respond to management decisions or suggestions. We are currently in the worst recession to hit our world for a generation and there are unemployed pilots everywhere. You have a fundamental misunderstanding of BALPA's powers here. They cannot just march into hangar 89, call for the tea and bikkies and then tell Andy Harrison and his attack-dog sidekick Cor Vrieswijk to sort their sorry lives out. That is not how it works - these are painful negotiations where only a position of strength counts. It will not have escaped all our readers that we do not currently enjoy a position of strength, and therefore we have to fight with the weapons we have. We are fighting a constant battle over numerous issues - part-time contracts being only one of them. I am not happier than anyone else over this. Nonetheless, I recognise that in the current climate we are not in the best negotiating position. As Doug and others will point out, we do indeed have part-time captains from our own ranks - it is easy to forget that but for BALPA we would have part-time Captains and First Officers from Virgin Atlantic instead. Given the alternatives, this was the best of a very bad lot.
Regarding whether easyJet is a good place to be or not, the overwhelming majority of pilots think it is the right place to be at a moment like this. Doug does not, and I presume that as we speak he is making alternative arrangements. I am unashamedly of the view that easyJet is a good place to be - warts and all. The statistics relating to the number of applications we have in hand from other Airbus companies would suggest that others take that view too.
Astraeus is a separate issue which I have discussed at length elsewhere. The more informed contributors may wish to read the whole argument rather than Doug's short-hand version. There again, why bore yourself with facts when there is a conspiracy to hunt down?
ezydriver - I am not advocating the maintenance of the status quo. I am simply saying that we can only fight battles people are willing to take part in. Right now, temporary commands and flexi-scheme employment practices is not what people will put their hat in the ring for. Disappointing as that is, that is where we are.
Once again, and returning to the issue in the title, in my judgement there is unlikely to be significant recruitment of full-time pilots any time soon at easyJet. If you want to shoot the messenger, be my guest. Nonetheless, that will not change the facts.
Portside - I presume from your comments and debate that you are not currently an easyJet pilot but would like to become one. You seem to feel agrieved that BALPA failed to act to prevent the employment of cheap part-time pilots at easyJet. BALPA is not the management at easyJet - they can only respond to management decisions or suggestions. We are currently in the worst recession to hit our world for a generation and there are unemployed pilots everywhere. You have a fundamental misunderstanding of BALPA's powers here. They cannot just march into hangar 89, call for the tea and bikkies and then tell Andy Harrison and his attack-dog sidekick Cor Vrieswijk to sort their sorry lives out. That is not how it works - these are painful negotiations where only a position of strength counts. It will not have escaped all our readers that we do not currently enjoy a position of strength, and therefore we have to fight with the weapons we have. We are fighting a constant battle over numerous issues - part-time contracts being only one of them. I am not happier than anyone else over this. Nonetheless, I recognise that in the current climate we are not in the best negotiating position. As Doug and others will point out, we do indeed have part-time captains from our own ranks - it is easy to forget that but for BALPA we would have part-time Captains and First Officers from Virgin Atlantic instead. Given the alternatives, this was the best of a very bad lot.
Regarding whether easyJet is a good place to be or not, the overwhelming majority of pilots think it is the right place to be at a moment like this. Doug does not, and I presume that as we speak he is making alternative arrangements. I am unashamedly of the view that easyJet is a good place to be - warts and all. The statistics relating to the number of applications we have in hand from other Airbus companies would suggest that others take that view too.
Astraeus is a separate issue which I have discussed at length elsewhere. The more informed contributors may wish to read the whole argument rather than Doug's short-hand version. There again, why bore yourself with facts when there is a conspiracy to hunt down?
ezydriver - I am not advocating the maintenance of the status quo. I am simply saying that we can only fight battles people are willing to take part in. Right now, temporary commands and flexi-scheme employment practices is not what people will put their hat in the ring for. Disappointing as that is, that is where we are.
Once again, and returning to the issue in the title, in my judgement there is unlikely to be significant recruitment of full-time pilots any time soon at easyJet. If you want to shoot the messenger, be my guest. Nonetheless, that will not change the facts.
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Hi,
did it last august, split in 2 days.
Day 1:
Introduction
Technical questions
Group exercise
Interview with psicologist and captain.
If succesful go to day 2
Sim assessment, pretty straight forward.
SID and NDB ILS 2 engine raw data without flight director and autopilot.
Use
"Ace the technical pilot interview" for the theoretical part
and good sense for the group exercise. They are looking for good comunication, team work, problem solving. No macho men!
Good luck
Gus320
did it last august, split in 2 days.
Day 1:
Introduction
Technical questions
Group exercise
Interview with psicologist and captain.
If succesful go to day 2
Sim assessment, pretty straight forward.
SID and NDB ILS 2 engine raw data without flight director and autopilot.
Use
"Ace the technical pilot interview" for the theoretical part
and good sense for the group exercise. They are looking for good comunication, team work, problem solving. No macho men!
Good luck
Gus320
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gus320 - All very informative, but have you actually got a job as a result of it? I suspect not. The people here have to a large extent been successful in the assessment phase and, like you, are swimming in the holding pool (hence the title of the thread). The question is whether or not their appearance at an easyJet selection day has been of any value to them, or are they likely to swim for the infinite future My understanding is that, right now, the only pilot jobs at easyJet are temporary contracts. I stand to be, and indeed wish to be, corrected - if someone can tell me otherwise then I am delighted to be wrong.
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CTC is De facto EZY pilot supplier
Apparently Stellios went to CTC during the foundational days of easyJet to get a quote for training pilots. The story goes the large sum surprised him significantly until CTC replied "Well it's cheaper than an accident".
CTC became the EZY trainer and supplier of choice. That marriage has had it's ups and downs but no divorce is likely for foreseeable. Just look at CTC Captains last year and Flexi crew this year.
If the climate is growth e.g: 2006/2007 then EZY, CTC and new pilot entrants are happy. But in a downturn TRSS can be even more risky for participants than the CTC Wings scheme.
How so? OK the initial TR cost may be £23k instead of £75 to £120k but TRSS applicants tend to be older, more experienced and have families to support, mortgages etc, and are giving up reasonable flying jobs.
Also from CTC's perspective cadets bring in more money and for EZY cadets are cheaper to hire in the short term - certainly a CTC Wings cadet will take a while to get to SFO salary levels c.f. a DEP/TRSS. Post 2008 cadets with "maybe" promises of contracts are the cheapest labour available to a LCC.
Now, if a TRSS student falls through the cracks in the system NO ONE will come to the rescue (note "student" i.e: you are NOT employed by EZY till after CTC say so - usually after LST and LVP Sim - Moral here is read the small print before you sign up for any such scheme.).
BALPA HQ are NOT interested and EZY CC (although sympathetic) cannot help you as you are not technically an employee of EZY and HQ have never made any progress with CTC as the latter claim to be a training school not an employer. So a BALPA CTC CC seems very unlikely.
A cadet on the other hand might be given more assistance from CTC e.g: extra SIM work to re-sit an LST because of the potential cost benefits to airline and school.
To those in EZY who want to work with more experienced crews:
1. Demand BALPA get more involved in TRSS/Cadet Ts&Cs
2. Fight for CTC cadets (part time hours a few months of the year keeps them out of currency and lower houred).
3. Fight for apprentice type DEPs (Turbo prop / Instructors/ex Military) by demanding traditional bonding and using EZY TRI/TREs not TRSS.
4. Demand higher experience for jet crews through letters and petitions to UK and EU MPs and CAA - the US Congress are waking up to it:
Congress wants to raise flight hours for pilots Knoxville News Sentinel
I'm sure many of you can think of more / better ideas to raise the value of our profession.
CTC became the EZY trainer and supplier of choice. That marriage has had it's ups and downs but no divorce is likely for foreseeable. Just look at CTC Captains last year and Flexi crew this year.
If the climate is growth e.g: 2006/2007 then EZY, CTC and new pilot entrants are happy. But in a downturn TRSS can be even more risky for participants than the CTC Wings scheme.
How so? OK the initial TR cost may be £23k instead of £75 to £120k but TRSS applicants tend to be older, more experienced and have families to support, mortgages etc, and are giving up reasonable flying jobs.
Also from CTC's perspective cadets bring in more money and for EZY cadets are cheaper to hire in the short term - certainly a CTC Wings cadet will take a while to get to SFO salary levels c.f. a DEP/TRSS. Post 2008 cadets with "maybe" promises of contracts are the cheapest labour available to a LCC.
Now, if a TRSS student falls through the cracks in the system NO ONE will come to the rescue (note "student" i.e: you are NOT employed by EZY till after CTC say so - usually after LST and LVP Sim - Moral here is read the small print before you sign up for any such scheme.).
BALPA HQ are NOT interested and EZY CC (although sympathetic) cannot help you as you are not technically an employee of EZY and HQ have never made any progress with CTC as the latter claim to be a training school not an employer. So a BALPA CTC CC seems very unlikely.
A cadet on the other hand might be given more assistance from CTC e.g: extra SIM work to re-sit an LST because of the potential cost benefits to airline and school.
To those in EZY who want to work with more experienced crews:
1. Demand BALPA get more involved in TRSS/Cadet Ts&Cs
2. Fight for CTC cadets (part time hours a few months of the year keeps them out of currency and lower houred).
3. Fight for apprentice type DEPs (Turbo prop / Instructors/ex Military) by demanding traditional bonding and using EZY TRI/TREs not TRSS.
4. Demand higher experience for jet crews through letters and petitions to UK and EU MPs and CAA - the US Congress are waking up to it:
Congress wants to raise flight hours for pilots Knoxville News Sentinel
I'm sure many of you can think of more / better ideas to raise the value of our profession.
I'd like to try and set a few things straight on the CTC/FlexiCrew situation, particularly to ezydriver. I speak as one of the 22 who were laid off at the end of last summer, before this whole FlexiCrew concept came to light.
When I started training with CTC, the vast majority of their 'graduates', as they like to call them, went to easyJet and did their six months and then were offered a full time contract on completion. No questions asked. I still hold a letter of intent to that effect from easyJet, offering me - subject to satisfactorily completing the six months - an offer of employment. The company reneged on that intention approximately 2 months before the expiry of my 6 months' 'line experience'.
I highly, highly resent the assertion that "The cadets are in a vulnerable position because they chose to put themselves there." Those that are currently in this position are there because they started training when the CTC route was a proven, safe and accepted way in to the company. You did what was asked of you, you were given a full time job. This FlexiCrew concept, which I absolutely deplore, only came to light after the 22 CTC pilots were told they wouldn't have the full-time jobs they had originally been offered. The cadets now in this position put themselves there in good faith - when they started out on the course, they had no reason to believe, assuming they performed to the required standard, that it would not lead to a full time contract with a well-performing and expanding airline. In response to the suggestion that "no Cadet this year was given the impression that they would be employed beyond winter and yet they still took it", I would ask, what would you do in their position? With no other offers forthcoming from ANY other carriers, coupled with the prospect of other CTC 'partner airlines' laying off staff, would you turn down those initial six months? Please don't lay the blame at the feet of the cadets - they are not responsible for this FlexiCrew recruitment mess.
Those of us laid off at the end of last year went to BALPA for assistance. BALPA agreed to look at our case, umm-ed and ahh-ed a bit and eventually told us there was nothing they could do. The tone of the response from some members of the company council was akin to having the door banged in your face. There was sympathy at first, but the end line was "these guys knew what they were getting themselves into, and that's that. Sorry chaps, we have more important things to deal with." As has been mentioned, the CC can not represent cadets with the company because the cadets are not company employees (and, during the period as part of the Cadet scheme, not even CTC employees either), and apparently (I've heard from others, but I haven't investigated myself) CTC refuse to recognise BALPA so apart from the limited 'support' received from BALPA HQ, where do the cadets turn to for help? There is plenty of sympathy and verbal support from other pilots within the company, but nobody is actually able to DO anything.
To the likes of ezydriver, do you have any suggestions? I'm sure the 8 who have just been told they're to be laid off from TCX would appreciate anything you have to offer. Simply saying "but cadets dont stand together and say No in the same way EZY BALPA members don't stand together and say No over piss takes like the crew food and roster disruption." doesn't really hold much weight. If the cadets were to do that, CTC will quite happily offer a handshake and a Basil Fawlty style "well, goodbye!" (And probably "thanks for your money".) Make no mistake, CTC and easyJet hold all the cards in the relationship - the cadets have no power whatsoever, certainly when it comes to saying "no, we won't accept this". IF that ever happened, I imagine CTC and the airlines would tell them to get lost.
As a final note, ezydriver says "Unless we all grow a Spine together and stop the rot, I wouldn't hold my breath". This whole issue was debated at serious length last year on the BALPA boards when it all kicked off, and although there was a lot of harrumphing and finger-wagging, there was a general reluctance to do anything. People were too busy 'keeping their powder dry', as I believe the phrase goes, for debates like crew food and contract captains. Yep, funny isn't it how people were debating at length the action that should be taken in the event that contract captains were taken on, yet when it comes down to contract F/Os, everyone takes a step back. From the debate going on here, it looks like that minor issue might be the one that gradually sneaks up and bites everyone on the behind.
When I started training with CTC, the vast majority of their 'graduates', as they like to call them, went to easyJet and did their six months and then were offered a full time contract on completion. No questions asked. I still hold a letter of intent to that effect from easyJet, offering me - subject to satisfactorily completing the six months - an offer of employment. The company reneged on that intention approximately 2 months before the expiry of my 6 months' 'line experience'.
I highly, highly resent the assertion that "The cadets are in a vulnerable position because they chose to put themselves there." Those that are currently in this position are there because they started training when the CTC route was a proven, safe and accepted way in to the company. You did what was asked of you, you were given a full time job. This FlexiCrew concept, which I absolutely deplore, only came to light after the 22 CTC pilots were told they wouldn't have the full-time jobs they had originally been offered. The cadets now in this position put themselves there in good faith - when they started out on the course, they had no reason to believe, assuming they performed to the required standard, that it would not lead to a full time contract with a well-performing and expanding airline. In response to the suggestion that "no Cadet this year was given the impression that they would be employed beyond winter and yet they still took it", I would ask, what would you do in their position? With no other offers forthcoming from ANY other carriers, coupled with the prospect of other CTC 'partner airlines' laying off staff, would you turn down those initial six months? Please don't lay the blame at the feet of the cadets - they are not responsible for this FlexiCrew recruitment mess.
Those of us laid off at the end of last year went to BALPA for assistance. BALPA agreed to look at our case, umm-ed and ahh-ed a bit and eventually told us there was nothing they could do. The tone of the response from some members of the company council was akin to having the door banged in your face. There was sympathy at first, but the end line was "these guys knew what they were getting themselves into, and that's that. Sorry chaps, we have more important things to deal with." As has been mentioned, the CC can not represent cadets with the company because the cadets are not company employees (and, during the period as part of the Cadet scheme, not even CTC employees either), and apparently (I've heard from others, but I haven't investigated myself) CTC refuse to recognise BALPA so apart from the limited 'support' received from BALPA HQ, where do the cadets turn to for help? There is plenty of sympathy and verbal support from other pilots within the company, but nobody is actually able to DO anything.
To the likes of ezydriver, do you have any suggestions? I'm sure the 8 who have just been told they're to be laid off from TCX would appreciate anything you have to offer. Simply saying "but cadets dont stand together and say No in the same way EZY BALPA members don't stand together and say No over piss takes like the crew food and roster disruption." doesn't really hold much weight. If the cadets were to do that, CTC will quite happily offer a handshake and a Basil Fawlty style "well, goodbye!" (And probably "thanks for your money".) Make no mistake, CTC and easyJet hold all the cards in the relationship - the cadets have no power whatsoever, certainly when it comes to saying "no, we won't accept this". IF that ever happened, I imagine CTC and the airlines would tell them to get lost.
As a final note, ezydriver says "Unless we all grow a Spine together and stop the rot, I wouldn't hold my breath". This whole issue was debated at serious length last year on the BALPA boards when it all kicked off, and although there was a lot of harrumphing and finger-wagging, there was a general reluctance to do anything. People were too busy 'keeping their powder dry', as I believe the phrase goes, for debates like crew food and contract captains. Yep, funny isn't it how people were debating at length the action that should be taken in the event that contract captains were taken on, yet when it comes down to contract F/Os, everyone takes a step back. From the debate going on here, it looks like that minor issue might be the one that gradually sneaks up and bites everyone on the behind.
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Well said Zippy Monster.
I hope you and the others get work soon. Heard there was trouble even when some were offered work with Aer Lingus.
I think only EZY senior crews and maybe the CAA can sort this one out if there is to be a meaningful career for FOs who have been messed around in this way.
Train drivers are paid better an tret more reasonably by rail companies - all without the training costs!
I hope you and the others get work soon. Heard there was trouble even when some were offered work with Aer Lingus.
I think only EZY senior crews and maybe the CAA can sort this one out if there is to be a meaningful career for FOs who have been messed around in this way.
Train drivers are paid better an tret more reasonably by rail companies - all without the training costs!
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Just out of interest what do you think the cadets coming through now would prefer? A few guys to get full-time contracts or several to get experience and have to come back over a couple of years on a contract?
What is better for the cadets? A longer wait for a full-time position or a short wait for a couple of years of summer only contracts?
I pose this question ignoring the dangers of trend setting and potentially winding up with contract summer FO's for many years to come. Imagine that things were to pick up in a couple of years and hiring would return to normal.
For guys in the hold pool obviously full time positions would be preferable for the cadets as while there are flexi-contract FO's available the chances of someone getting a full time contract from the hold pool are slim I guess!
What is better for the cadets? A longer wait for a full-time position or a short wait for a couple of years of summer only contracts?
I pose this question ignoring the dangers of trend setting and potentially winding up with contract summer FO's for many years to come. Imagine that things were to pick up in a couple of years and hiring would return to normal.
For guys in the hold pool obviously full time positions would be preferable for the cadets as while there are flexi-contract FO's available the chances of someone getting a full time contract from the hold pool are slim I guess!
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Zippy:-
"In response to the suggestion that "no Cadet this year was given the impression that they would be employed beyond winter and yet they still took it", I would ask, what would you do in their position? With no other offers forthcoming from ANY other carriers, coupled with the prospect of other CTC 'partner airlines' laying off staff, would you turn down those initial six months?"
I am sorry to be blunt, but since you asked, and with the benefit of experience as well I would not enter such a scheme. If my kids grow up and want to be pilots (god forbid) I will not let them do it this way. I will not let them be exploited in this manner, no matter how strong the "dream" of sitting in a big shiny jet is, because that dream obscures reality from them, and reality is where you have to live.
I was TRSS, but at my selection day I was DE. In aviation the only constant is that the rules keep changing, and we ALL have to learn that the hard way. I did.
If cadet contracts had/have a cast iron guarantee of a job at end of said 6 months then you have a case, however if there is the slightest whiff of said job "MAY" be offered or any sort of get out clause, then just because all the guys who went before you got Jobs is not a guarantee that you or anyone else will, this is harsh but its the truth, its a bit like people leaving one job to start another because at the interview they were told after 6 months they would get a command, such promises in aviation are worthless, they may sometimes work out but if pressure tested they hold no water.
There are days I serioulsy wish that I had become a train driver, it was my initial thought as a boy before I encountered aviation.
Flying and working for an Airline are two very very different things. The first is a passion, the second destroys your sole a little bit at a time.
This thread was about the holding pool where guys want to bring their experience to EasyJet, and to be fair to them, perhaps a new thread should be started on Cadet contracts and return this one to its original intent.
"In response to the suggestion that "no Cadet this year was given the impression that they would be employed beyond winter and yet they still took it", I would ask, what would you do in their position? With no other offers forthcoming from ANY other carriers, coupled with the prospect of other CTC 'partner airlines' laying off staff, would you turn down those initial six months?"
I am sorry to be blunt, but since you asked, and with the benefit of experience as well I would not enter such a scheme. If my kids grow up and want to be pilots (god forbid) I will not let them do it this way. I will not let them be exploited in this manner, no matter how strong the "dream" of sitting in a big shiny jet is, because that dream obscures reality from them, and reality is where you have to live.
I was TRSS, but at my selection day I was DE. In aviation the only constant is that the rules keep changing, and we ALL have to learn that the hard way. I did.
If cadet contracts had/have a cast iron guarantee of a job at end of said 6 months then you have a case, however if there is the slightest whiff of said job "MAY" be offered or any sort of get out clause, then just because all the guys who went before you got Jobs is not a guarantee that you or anyone else will, this is harsh but its the truth, its a bit like people leaving one job to start another because at the interview they were told after 6 months they would get a command, such promises in aviation are worthless, they may sometimes work out but if pressure tested they hold no water.
There are days I serioulsy wish that I had become a train driver, it was my initial thought as a boy before I encountered aviation.
Flying and working for an Airline are two very very different things. The first is a passion, the second destroys your sole a little bit at a time.
This thread was about the holding pool where guys want to bring their experience to EasyJet, and to be fair to them, perhaps a new thread should be started on Cadet contracts and return this one to its original intent.
There will never be any full time contracts available in easyjet for years to come. Until they are begging for pilots this will be the case! Everything will be a seasonal/flexi contract from now on, we have been told in black and white for several months now.
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Oh well, it's just "aviation", never mind, get a life, etc, etc....
Actually to get a better life (Ts&Cs for you and others), sometimes you have to fight for it. That is risky for those who have much to loose. No one wants to be a martyr so a better way is to get a majority of the workforce to work with a constructive union or by jointly funding a decent employment lawyer.
In one sense "aviation" is not a special case. Indeed, there have been many cases of hire and fire with greed and unfairness issues well before human flight began but the pay for type rating, pay to fly passengers or zero to hero in 250 hrs schemes are pretty new.
Now, these flexi contract & pay to work schemes (e.g: bmi line training) are destroying Ts&Cs like nothing before. The change in the EU to a low houred CPL (used to be 700 hr CAA UK CPL) has changed the marketplace. The old build experience routes (instructing, survey, GA etc) have been almost ignored over the past 10 years.
Part of the issue is impatience. Some newbies want instant success - approved course and an airline job. It is possible for a considerable price.
Another part is greed - sometimes called "well it's the current economic climate and these part time, low houred FOs are so much cheaper to retain".
In between are the flight schools who have to earn a crust but these days seek to replace traditional airline recruitment with a complete package. The latter can prevent experienced DEP recruitment - especially when it is in the school's interest to place their own part time Captains or low houred cadets with an airline.
It can change for the better and it doesn't require an economic upturn - it requires thoughtful, intelligent and courageous people like you to get involved.
In one sense "aviation" is not a special case. Indeed, there have been many cases of hire and fire with greed and unfairness issues well before human flight began but the pay for type rating, pay to fly passengers or zero to hero in 250 hrs schemes are pretty new.
Now, these flexi contract & pay to work schemes (e.g: bmi line training) are destroying Ts&Cs like nothing before. The change in the EU to a low houred CPL (used to be 700 hr CAA UK CPL) has changed the marketplace. The old build experience routes (instructing, survey, GA etc) have been almost ignored over the past 10 years.
Part of the issue is impatience. Some newbies want instant success - approved course and an airline job. It is possible for a considerable price.
Another part is greed - sometimes called "well it's the current economic climate and these part time, low houred FOs are so much cheaper to retain".
In between are the flight schools who have to earn a crust but these days seek to replace traditional airline recruitment with a complete package. The latter can prevent experienced DEP recruitment - especially when it is in the school's interest to place their own part time Captains or low houred cadets with an airline.
It can change for the better and it doesn't require an economic upturn - it requires thoughtful, intelligent and courageous people like you to get involved.
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This is an industry wide problem, and it requires an industry wide solution. The only vehicle we have to push that agenda is balpa. But they do not have the mandate or inclination to fight this case as of yet.
Maybe it is time for all of the major CC's to get together and push balpa to lobby the CAA, Government and the airlines to end this practise and go back to employing the most suitable and experienced candidates for the role. Safety of the travelling public should take precident over these schemes.
D and F
Maybe it is time for all of the major CC's to get together and push balpa to lobby the CAA, Government and the airlines to end this practise and go back to employing the most suitable and experienced candidates for the role. Safety of the travelling public should take precident over these schemes.
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In order of hours..
NSF
Cmon-Pullup
Zippy Monster
Zippy Monster may well have less hours than most of us here were born with but he has a great deal more foresight.
I agree 100% that Easy is a good port in a storm - indeed, one of the best. Like storms, recessions pass and the sun peeks out again. I believe then that Easyjet will no longer be the employer of choice for many current employees of Easyjet.
If these practices become widespread in aviation, or even universal, think for a second what it will mean to you if you choose to move on.
At least should you not decide to leave Easyjet you can remain secure in the knowledge that all this flak will hit those below you, whilst you're safely insulated by virture of your time in the company.
Afraid not. As NSF points out, nobody is interested in this fight. Pullup accurately reflects the sentiment that people look after themselves first. Zippy hits the nail on the head by suggesting it will all come back and bite arses.
If you thought the denigration of terms was limited to these cadets, you're wrong.
They used to get a full time job, now they don't - big deal.
Already a professional, flew an aircraft that was under an arbitrary weight, you coughed up for the rating - big deal.
You became a captain, now you don't get a full time position - big deal.
Don't you see where this is going?
Instead of splitting hairs over who is worth defending, old cadets, new cadets, pay as you go, current FOs, SFOs, about-to-be-captains, just-made-captains, been-captain-forever - why not consider that drawing the line at the bottom is best for all?.. Except that a surfeit of chips on shoulders mean it'll be a sleepwalk to the bottom.
Posted it before, and worth posting again:
First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out - because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out - because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out - because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out - because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me - and there was no one left to speak out for me.
NSF
ezydriver - I am not advocating the maintenance of the status quo. I am simply saying that we can only fight battles people are willing to take part in. Right now, temporary commands and flexi-scheme employment practices is not what people will put their hat in the ring for. Disappointing as that is, that is where we are.
Sorry if this sound egoistic from our side but we all have to look after ourself as a group before we can start to help every other guy who would like to join. If we don't - then the T & C's will just be eroded to the unbearable, and it is already hard enough to just keep what we have at the moment.
From the debate going on here, it looks like that minor issue might be the one that gradually sneaks up and bites everyone on the behind.
I agree 100% that Easy is a good port in a storm - indeed, one of the best. Like storms, recessions pass and the sun peeks out again. I believe then that Easyjet will no longer be the employer of choice for many current employees of Easyjet.
If these practices become widespread in aviation, or even universal, think for a second what it will mean to you if you choose to move on.
At least should you not decide to leave Easyjet you can remain secure in the knowledge that all this flak will hit those below you, whilst you're safely insulated by virture of your time in the company.
Afraid not. As NSF points out, nobody is interested in this fight. Pullup accurately reflects the sentiment that people look after themselves first. Zippy hits the nail on the head by suggesting it will all come back and bite arses.
If you thought the denigration of terms was limited to these cadets, you're wrong.
They used to get a full time job, now they don't - big deal.
Already a professional, flew an aircraft that was under an arbitrary weight, you coughed up for the rating - big deal.
You became a captain, now you don't get a full time position - big deal.
Don't you see where this is going?
Instead of splitting hairs over who is worth defending, old cadets, new cadets, pay as you go, current FOs, SFOs, about-to-be-captains, just-made-captains, been-captain-forever - why not consider that drawing the line at the bottom is best for all?.. Except that a surfeit of chips on shoulders mean it'll be a sleepwalk to the bottom.
Posted it before, and worth posting again:
First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out - because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out - because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out - because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out - because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me - and there was no one left to speak out for me.
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Caudillo
A truly worthy post. I had often thought of the Pastor Niemoller passage when on the RYR thoughts thread, unfortunately this would have gone over the heads of most of the younger element of the pilot community, if there now exists any such thing, and would have led to sniggers all round, never mind the sort of opprobium those of the rightist viewpoint would issue forth. They would be the same rightists that are probably in line for the chop as some younger guy with cash in pocket wants to take their places. Then watch then bleat. In a dog-eat-dog world there is nothing more frightened or wary than an old dog.
Like it or not the only chance commercial aviation has at present is in putting its weight and collective thinking into BALPA and via it IALPA to sort this whole sh1t out.
Like it or not the only chance commercial aviation has at present is in putting its weight and collective thinking into BALPA and via it IALPA to sort this whole sh1t out.
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I am simpathetic to the plight of those seeking their first job. In fact we are ALL simpathetic, we all know what is like because we have ALL been there. But... CTC cadets are not EZY employees they are CTC customers. They have opted for a shortcut to a jet job by paying a large sum of money to CTC. It was a calculated gamble and one that unfortunately did not pay up. If CTC has not delivered it is to CTC they should direct their complaint. Theirs is a consumer issue not an employment one. That is so only because that is the route they chose into an aviation job.
I considerd the CTC gamble a few years ago but decided against it. Now,as en existing EZY pilot, I am supposed to man the barricades to pave the way for this buy a job scheme? How so? If I did man the barricades it would be to close this avenue all together
I considerd the CTC gamble a few years ago but decided against it. Now,as en existing EZY pilot, I am supposed to man the barricades to pave the way for this buy a job scheme? How so? If I did man the barricades it would be to close this avenue all together
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buy a job scheme
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It's not my fault, I didn't pay CTC to get into EZY.....
E and C:
I think most experienced FOs who had done their dues in smaller/turboprop craft effectively paid to get into EZY through TRSS. That was the only scheme open to them and it meant giving CTC £23k. Just about all EZY initial recruitment/training is in fact CTC.
`it is the disconnect between "they are just CTC customers" and "we are full time employed EZY pilots" that is at the root of the apathy over both cadets and TRSS entry routes.
In an ideal world EZY would only employ experienced Jet FOs and Capts - maybe those with a good apprenticeship in aviation from regional airlines, Flight Instruction or Military backgrounds.
In the real world EZY delegate to their preferred supplier. The result is part time cadet FOs, experienced type rated A319/320 pilots unemployed (SFO salaries are too expensive cf cadet ones), and TRE's brought in from outside to man summer captaincy posts.
To quote that Welsh band " If you tolerate this, your children will be next"
MANIC STREET PREACHERS LYRICS - If You Tolerate This Your Children Will Be Next
I think most experienced FOs who had done their dues in smaller/turboprop craft effectively paid to get into EZY through TRSS. That was the only scheme open to them and it meant giving CTC £23k. Just about all EZY initial recruitment/training is in fact CTC.
`it is the disconnect between "they are just CTC customers" and "we are full time employed EZY pilots" that is at the root of the apathy over both cadets and TRSS entry routes.
In an ideal world EZY would only employ experienced Jet FOs and Capts - maybe those with a good apprenticeship in aviation from regional airlines, Flight Instruction or Military backgrounds.
In the real world EZY delegate to their preferred supplier. The result is part time cadet FOs, experienced type rated A319/320 pilots unemployed (SFO salaries are too expensive cf cadet ones), and TRE's brought in from outside to man summer captaincy posts.
To quote that Welsh band " If you tolerate this, your children will be next"
MANIC STREET PREACHERS LYRICS - If You Tolerate This Your Children Will Be Next
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Here's a novel suggestion. Instead of defending our own individual position whether that be Cadet / FO / SFO / Capt / TRI or whatever why don't we all as PILOTS put our energies into defending our profession at all levels. What form that takes can be discussed to death whilst the profession quietly sinks to the bottom behind us but for crying out loud if you continually point the finger at each other as to who should stand up first by the time the finger pointing ends there will be nothing left to protect. We are all pilots and as a group we should all defend our profession. End of.
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As far as I'm concerned this discussion like many others is not about finger pointing rather expressing concern and raising awareness about these serious issues so that those with the balls may take action. If no-one stands in the firing line first nothing will happen.
It is those with the power to act who bear the responsibility to do so. Those without power (i.e: without a job or on a silly 6 month contract) can sign petitions, lobby parliament etc but they have no say compared to company staff and shareholders.
A cadet has no options to pay off his/her £120k bill based on broken promises. The Office of Fair Trading is unlikely to consider any consumer claims re: professional pilot training since the latter was to a high enough standard to meet EZY entry requirements. So they end up working in bars/ Macky D's in between flexi crew tasks. Who profits?
Then there's the very experienced (thousands of hours) pilot who can't get in the door without paying for a type rating.
Finally those in employment aren't immune - heard about an Airline TRSS employee who has finally been offered his preferred base in EU but with strings attached - their TRSS re-payments will cease as soon as they leave the UK!
It is those with the power to act who bear the responsibility to do so. Those without power (i.e: without a job or on a silly 6 month contract) can sign petitions, lobby parliament etc but they have no say compared to company staff and shareholders.
A cadet has no options to pay off his/her £120k bill based on broken promises. The Office of Fair Trading is unlikely to consider any consumer claims re: professional pilot training since the latter was to a high enough standard to meet EZY entry requirements. So they end up working in bars/ Macky D's in between flexi crew tasks. Who profits?
Then there's the very experienced (thousands of hours) pilot who can't get in the door without paying for a type rating.
Finally those in employment aren't immune - heard about an Airline TRSS employee who has finally been offered his preferred base in EU but with strings attached - their TRSS re-payments will cease as soon as they leave the UK!
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Finally those in employment aren't immune - heard about an Airline TRSS employee who has finally been offered his preferred base in EU but with strings attached - their TRSS re-payments will cease as soon as they leave the UK
