Shameful behaviour by a well established FTO
Thread Starter
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 288
Likes: 0
From: cambridge uk
Shameful behaviour by a well established FTO
Need some advice, so here is the story....
I joined a credible UK FTO to obtain my ATPL. Start the training all is fine, run into many problems alomg the way but heard many tales of 'rocking the boat will upset those who may help you in the future' so i kept a record of all the things that niggled me for when i finished the training. So i eventually pass all the groundschool and flying complete my MCC then expected the school to set the paperwork machine in motion like it does with every other student. NO! not for me, they misplace my paperwork for two months! Eventually with a little pestering i get it sent off, now the icing on the cake! I am in dispute over a bill which is costs surplus to the contracted price of the course but the school will not hand over my licence which only arrived last wednesday (thats the 19th september 2001) untill i pay this bill. I have calculated what i owe them but they want yet more letters from various departments to authorise all the changes in costs. In the mean time i am trying to prise my licence out of their sticky paws but they will not give it to me. I have reviewed the contract i initially signed and its speaks of nothing regarding the holding of documents without payment. I have sent a fax explaining the situation to the CAA. Does anybody have any legal knowledge that can help me as this is hindering my job hunting, i have an application form but can't fill in all the licence details yet.
To sumarise, is this within the rights of the school to effectively impound my JAA FRozen ATPL until i pay costs surplus to the original training contract?
Please help if you can!
regards
I joined a credible UK FTO to obtain my ATPL. Start the training all is fine, run into many problems alomg the way but heard many tales of 'rocking the boat will upset those who may help you in the future' so i kept a record of all the things that niggled me for when i finished the training. So i eventually pass all the groundschool and flying complete my MCC then expected the school to set the paperwork machine in motion like it does with every other student. NO! not for me, they misplace my paperwork for two months! Eventually with a little pestering i get it sent off, now the icing on the cake! I am in dispute over a bill which is costs surplus to the contracted price of the course but the school will not hand over my licence which only arrived last wednesday (thats the 19th september 2001) untill i pay this bill. I have calculated what i owe them but they want yet more letters from various departments to authorise all the changes in costs. In the mean time i am trying to prise my licence out of their sticky paws but they will not give it to me. I have reviewed the contract i initially signed and its speaks of nothing regarding the holding of documents without payment. I have sent a fax explaining the situation to the CAA. Does anybody have any legal knowledge that can help me as this is hindering my job hunting, i have an application form but can't fill in all the licence details yet.
To sumarise, is this within the rights of the school to effectively impound my JAA FRozen ATPL until i pay costs surplus to the original training contract?
Please help if you can!
regards
Joined: Feb 2000
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 17,519
Likes: 1,852
From: England
Well actually its common practice if there is a dispute.
You cannot have duplicate licences as I understand it. You can have replacement ones. At a cost.
Sometimes the sympathy lies with the school and sometimes the student - I care not to comment in this case and have no knowledge.
My advice would be dialogue. Resorting to letter writing campaigns and lawyers is usually far more painful for the person than the FTO.
Call them, ask to meet, badger them. By all means use PPRuNe to publicise your predicament as long as you are willing to make your real ID available and post nothing but the truth to avoid any legal issues which we would pass onto your shoulders.
Talk, compromise, rationalise. These would be my watch words. The CAA won't actually give a damn about you. Its a contractural issue and they are far too busy coping with the current unprecedented aviation crisis.
Good luck,
WWW
You cannot have duplicate licences as I understand it. You can have replacement ones. At a cost.
Sometimes the sympathy lies with the school and sometimes the student - I care not to comment in this case and have no knowledge.
My advice would be dialogue. Resorting to letter writing campaigns and lawyers is usually far more painful for the person than the FTO.
Call them, ask to meet, badger them. By all means use PPRuNe to publicise your predicament as long as you are willing to make your real ID available and post nothing but the truth to avoid any legal issues which we would pass onto your shoulders.
Talk, compromise, rationalise. These would be my watch words. The CAA won't actually give a damn about you. Its a contractural issue and they are far too busy coping with the current unprecedented aviation crisis.
Good luck,
WWW
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 450
Likes: 0
From: Uranus
I'm with Flintstone on this one, outrageous behaviour, seriously unimpressed. As if they havn't had enough cash from him already. Perhaps if they gave him his licence he could then maybe find work and have an income from which to pay this bill. No licence means no job which means no cash for the bill.............
Surely the deal is that the CAA issue the licence to the chap who's name is on it, not some school? My advice is to pester the CAA.
This situation is clearly bad form.
Surely the deal is that the CAA issue the licence to the chap who's name is on it, not some school? My advice is to pester the CAA.
This situation is clearly bad form.
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 655
Likes: 0
From: Europe
In essence, a replacement licence would have to be a duplicate of the original. The word duplicate, is also synonymous with copy, carbon copy, photocopy, replacement, spare, reproduction, and replica, amongst others of course. So, clearly one can have a duplicate licence.
Edited for spelling. Multi-lingual fluency does take practice.
[ 25 September 2001: Message edited by: 126.9 ]
Edited for spelling. Multi-lingual fluency does take practice.
[ 25 September 2001: Message edited by: 126.9 ]
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 413
Likes: 0
From: Africa
I agree with Flintstone. Your licence is a legal document pertaining to, and belonging to you. As far as I am concerned no unauthorised person is allowed to sieze or hold your licence. Only the appropriate authorities such as the CAA or the police of the country of issue are able to do that. I don't believe the FTO has the authority to withhold it while a contractual dispute is underway. It does not belong to them and they have no jurisdiction over it. (BTW, totally uneducated legal opinion though it is, it's what I have been led to believe here in South Africa.)
Thread Starter
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 288
Likes: 0
From: cambridge uk
I am in the middle on typing up my drievances with the school but as you can guess i want to make sure it is water tight before i send it to them. The guy who will be dealing with it is very hard to get hold of and can be only reached if you make an appointment, the staff in general are very stroppy otherv than the nice lady who i have been negotiating with. Spoken and written to the CAA about this and they say that it is a dispute between myself and the school although the head of standards has taken note i believe. I am fully prepared to reveal my true identity and the FTO is needs be here, but i can't see what that will achieve other than worry future students to this particualr school - therefore i will keep stum - for now.
Lawyer out the question, too much hassle and he can't do an awful lot. The FTO cannot lawfully do this too me as i explained in the original post but i will be dammed if they will win this argument, they push people about, lie to prospective students and mess you around whilst you are training and something needs to be done about. I MUST STRESS THE FACT IT IS A MANAGEMENT PROBLEM. I have turned into a bitter twisted little ****** haven't I? i was once cheerful.
Its gonna take some time. Thanks for the responses i will delve into the law a little deeper i think.
all the best
Lawyer out the question, too much hassle and he can't do an awful lot. The FTO cannot lawfully do this too me as i explained in the original post but i will be dammed if they will win this argument, they push people about, lie to prospective students and mess you around whilst you are training and something needs to be done about. I MUST STRESS THE FACT IT IS A MANAGEMENT PROBLEM. I have turned into a bitter twisted little ****** haven't I? i was once cheerful.
Its gonna take some time. Thanks for the responses i will delve into the law a little deeper i think.
all the best
