EK "Desperation" Road Show
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EK "Desperation" Road Show
The Emirates road show will soon to be at a hotel near you somewhere in the UK.
Emirates Pilot manning levels are at a very low state and are getting worse! quality pilots are just not joining because of the terms and conditions in Dubai.
If you're thinking of going to one of these road shows that's fine but remember there are a lot of things you won't be told.
Look through all the glitz and other crap, and read the threads on EK first then ask some questions.
What you read on here is in the main true, there are however a few who like to moan for the sake of it. Emirates is not a top quality carrier, they are fast becoming a low cost Airline with terms and conditions to match which are going further down hill by the day.
Think long and hard before coming out here, the grass is NOT always greener.
Emirates Pilot manning levels are at a very low state and are getting worse! quality pilots are just not joining because of the terms and conditions in Dubai.
If you're thinking of going to one of these road shows that's fine but remember there are a lot of things you won't be told.
Look through all the glitz and other crap, and read the threads on EK first then ask some questions.
What you read on here is in the main true, there are however a few who like to moan for the sake of it. Emirates is not a top quality carrier, they are fast becoming a low cost Airline with terms and conditions to match which are going further down hill by the day.
Think long and hard before coming out here, the grass is NOT always greener.
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Ahhh...and beware, beware...the contract will state 42 days annual leave allocated...and there is a new, recently clarified definition of the term "allocated"....basically means you are only guaranteed only the UAE labour law minimum of 30 days....absolutely brilliant use of semantics. What else will it be applied to you must ask yourself?
So to recap...there is no contractual protection of leave, only the protection of UAE law...(did I really just say that with a straight face?)
Be very, very careful to not only read the conditions of employment but to UNDERSTAND how they will be interpreted...they will change on a whim and there will not be a thing you can do about it. (Except leave - which many are, and MANY are poised to. Ask yourself why.)
Good luck - and remember, there are lots of options out this way!
So to recap...there is no contractual protection of leave, only the protection of UAE law...(did I really just say that with a straight face?)
Be very, very careful to not only read the conditions of employment but to UNDERSTAND how they will be interpreted...they will change on a whim and there will not be a thing you can do about it. (Except leave - which many are, and MANY are poised to. Ask yourself why.)
Good luck - and remember, there are lots of options out this way!
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Oh yes another one good one for you. Planned rest before and after a flight, great I hear you say, 55 hour off after a JFK, ah no! we can reduce that for operational reasons 
What you see is not what you get!!!! They can screw you every which way, and they will.
What you see is not what you get!!!! They can screw you every which way, and they will.
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My contract most definately states 42 days leave, along with several other 'cast in stone' terms and conditions, such as class of travel, ALT, accommodation etc. I can accept a reduction to 30 days for a year or so if it helps out but those lost days WILL be returned. It's black and white and I don't give a rats A**E what the labour law is here. A court case in the UK for breach of contract would not look good for the Emirates PR machine so I doubt they'd try to pull that one. Factoring, however, now I can't find anything in my contract regarding that!
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EGGW.
Have you noticed a reduction in the terms & conditions at EK since you got there. Is the grass going brown?
Why are DEC's not well regarded?
Only asking as I was also thinking of leaving MON for EK.
Have you noticed a reduction in the terms & conditions at EK since you got there. Is the grass going brown?
Why are DEC's not well regarded?
Only asking as I was also thinking of leaving MON for EK.
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The problems here are in general created by under-manning. If we had enough bums on seats, everyone would get the leave they are 'entitled' to, the work rate would reduce which would in turn reduce the number of hours that each pilot has to fly and make a 1000hr limit an irrelevance.
We now have an interesting dichotomy (had to get the dictionary out for that one) whereby guys are telling people not to come, in the hope of an improvement, which just increases the pressure on those already here.
So what is really needed? Is the package really that bad? Answer probably no, if you were working at the rate that I did when I joined. It sucks if you have no time for yourself or your family. It is competetive but seems not to be attractive enough to get the bums on seats.
The EK Managers seem to subscribe to the 'just in time' school of management which is designed to keep costs to a minimum. Sadly their knee jerk reactions of turning off the tap tactically rather than strategically have put us behind the drag curve with the 380 and numerous 777s turning up and no way to make it up.
So what are the options?
1. Pay more, attract more pilots, problem solved - Management do not appear to want to do this as it would affect our bottom line. As it happens the cost of BA and Altheon doing our training has made these costs appear insignificant. Catch 22.
2. Reduce entry requirements. Problem is the safety risk goes through the roof particularly in an expanding airline when you don't have enough guys to train them properly. Catch 22.
3. Increase the work rate for those left. Our short haul experienced managers evidently favour this route. I for one will not fly if fatigued and I cannot see how the proposed changes can avoid this happening. Just look at BA in Delhi and imagine that happening all over our network as guys drop like flies. Catch 22.
4. Offer other incentives. Commuting Roster - no cost to company but need the bods to cover the rest of the flying. Catch 22.
5. Basings - If Etihad are anything to go by they'll do the basings but not pay the cash. Catch 22.
The real snag though is that eventually the expansion has to slow and guys that are joining now don't want to get trapped with crappy conditions, in the desert with a massive seniority list on top. So what would I do?
1. Make the conditions attractive. Bin the factoring and 1000hr rules and make a statement about the targeted crewing levels so that joiners and those already here know where they stand w.r.t work rate etc. Have a date in place for those targets to be met.
2. Increase the package for new joiners with the expectation that they may spend more time as an F/O.
3. Immediately introduce a commuting rostering bid and introduce basings offering an incentive to retain experienced guys that are now starting to leave in droves.
4. When manning has recovered and we can bear the training burden reduce the hours requirement for new joiners.
At the moment everyone knows there is a problem but no one is standing up and making a statement. Perhaps they hope they will be gone before it all goes horribly wrong. I am planning to stay, will some one with 'manager' written on their door please start managing.
1. Stop screwing the guys that are already here because not only will they leave but people will not join to replace them.
2. Communicate! Tell us you have a plan. At the moment it is like watching headless chickens, with a bucket of water, trying to put out an oil fire.
Off to work. This used to be a great place to work, it still could be but time is running out. It has to be a multi-layered solution, popping sticking plaster on will not work in the long run. Getting it right, even if it involves improving T&Cs, will save money in the long run. Please stop the rot now or you will have no legacy, no job and no airline that you could be proud of! If you are thinking of joining please do, just make sure it is right for you, it will certainly help me.
Ghost
We now have an interesting dichotomy (had to get the dictionary out for that one) whereby guys are telling people not to come, in the hope of an improvement, which just increases the pressure on those already here.
So what is really needed? Is the package really that bad? Answer probably no, if you were working at the rate that I did when I joined. It sucks if you have no time for yourself or your family. It is competetive but seems not to be attractive enough to get the bums on seats.
The EK Managers seem to subscribe to the 'just in time' school of management which is designed to keep costs to a minimum. Sadly their knee jerk reactions of turning off the tap tactically rather than strategically have put us behind the drag curve with the 380 and numerous 777s turning up and no way to make it up.
So what are the options?
1. Pay more, attract more pilots, problem solved - Management do not appear to want to do this as it would affect our bottom line. As it happens the cost of BA and Altheon doing our training has made these costs appear insignificant. Catch 22.
2. Reduce entry requirements. Problem is the safety risk goes through the roof particularly in an expanding airline when you don't have enough guys to train them properly. Catch 22.
3. Increase the work rate for those left. Our short haul experienced managers evidently favour this route. I for one will not fly if fatigued and I cannot see how the proposed changes can avoid this happening. Just look at BA in Delhi and imagine that happening all over our network as guys drop like flies. Catch 22.
4. Offer other incentives. Commuting Roster - no cost to company but need the bods to cover the rest of the flying. Catch 22.
5. Basings - If Etihad are anything to go by they'll do the basings but not pay the cash. Catch 22.
The real snag though is that eventually the expansion has to slow and guys that are joining now don't want to get trapped with crappy conditions, in the desert with a massive seniority list on top. So what would I do?
1. Make the conditions attractive. Bin the factoring and 1000hr rules and make a statement about the targeted crewing levels so that joiners and those already here know where they stand w.r.t work rate etc. Have a date in place for those targets to be met.
2. Increase the package for new joiners with the expectation that they may spend more time as an F/O.
3. Immediately introduce a commuting rostering bid and introduce basings offering an incentive to retain experienced guys that are now starting to leave in droves.
4. When manning has recovered and we can bear the training burden reduce the hours requirement for new joiners.
At the moment everyone knows there is a problem but no one is standing up and making a statement. Perhaps they hope they will be gone before it all goes horribly wrong. I am planning to stay, will some one with 'manager' written on their door please start managing.
1. Stop screwing the guys that are already here because not only will they leave but people will not join to replace them.
2. Communicate! Tell us you have a plan. At the moment it is like watching headless chickens, with a bucket of water, trying to put out an oil fire.
Off to work. This used to be a great place to work, it still could be but time is running out. It has to be a multi-layered solution, popping sticking plaster on will not work in the long run. Getting it right, even if it involves improving T&Cs, will save money in the long run. Please stop the rot now or you will have no legacy, no job and no airline that you could be proud of! If you are thinking of joining please do, just make sure it is right for you, it will certainly help me.
Ghost
Last edited by Ghostflyer; 21st Apr 2007 at 07:28.
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-"I can accept a reduction to 30 days for a year or so if it helps out"
No disrespect buddy, but acting like this is exactly what got you guys in EK (and most of us up here in Europe) to the disgusting level of T&Cs that we are now fighting hard to improve!
Honestly, why should you give up 15 days of holiday, regardless if you get them back or not, to "help" people out who are making hundreds of million dollar every year? Its not your fault that they ended up in this situation, right? If they have problems, then they need to solve it, not you! You are hired to fly airplanes (and all that comes with that of course - showing up on time, acting in accordance wiht SOPs, laws and regs etc etc), nothing else! There are other people hired solely to recruit enough pilots and cabin crew, to make sure there are enough planes to fly the planned production etc etc. THESE people are responsible for what is going on right now, not you! Do you think they are giving up 15 days leave to "help" sort these problems out? Hahaha! Answer is NO!
Until we, the pilots, stand up and say stop, things will only get worse. To be honest, we have ourselves to blame for this mess. We should have stod up ages ago to stop this madness!
So, stand up and say something, now! If they dont like you raising these issues, well with bus or boeing time you can have a new job in a few days....your choice...
/CP
No disrespect buddy, but acting like this is exactly what got you guys in EK (and most of us up here in Europe) to the disgusting level of T&Cs that we are now fighting hard to improve!
Honestly, why should you give up 15 days of holiday, regardless if you get them back or not, to "help" people out who are making hundreds of million dollar every year? Its not your fault that they ended up in this situation, right? If they have problems, then they need to solve it, not you! You are hired to fly airplanes (and all that comes with that of course - showing up on time, acting in accordance wiht SOPs, laws and regs etc etc), nothing else! There are other people hired solely to recruit enough pilots and cabin crew, to make sure there are enough planes to fly the planned production etc etc. THESE people are responsible for what is going on right now, not you! Do you think they are giving up 15 days leave to "help" sort these problems out? Hahaha! Answer is NO!
Until we, the pilots, stand up and say stop, things will only get worse. To be honest, we have ourselves to blame for this mess. We should have stod up ages ago to stop this madness!
So, stand up and say something, now! If they dont like you raising these issues, well with bus or boeing time you can have a new job in a few days....your choice...
/CP
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I was under the impression that EK has adequate staff to upgrade to the left seat which is why the DEC program has been suspended. I ran into a number of 777 guys, former DAL who fled EK to KAL for DEC because EK delayed or even passover to the left seat. Reasons were not related to me for the reasons. There are some, however, that have been with EK for a number of years before, the left seat and holiday termoils are still happy with pay and housing accomodations.
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Do EK offer foreign basings? ie can pilots be based in London, Birmingham, Manchester, Glasgow etc? If this is not available, it may be useful for the company to retain UK pilots. Same for Ozzy's etc.
Last edited by smith; 20th Apr 2007 at 06:10.
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Low Hours at Emirates
I am a low hour guy out of school about 6 months. I have been really lucky and had a few interviews with some success and should be starting one of two type ratings before the end of the summer.
I was wondering if Emirates look at low hours guys as potential candidates or if you have to be rated with experience.
Was thinking of attending the Glasgow info session, but was also wondering if I would just be wasting my time.
Anyone with any thoughts?
I was wondering if Emirates look at low hours guys as potential candidates or if you have to be rated with experience.
Was thinking of attending the Glasgow info session, but was also wondering if I would just be wasting my time.
Anyone with any thoughts?
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Rtinto,
Take a look at the website and you'll see what the expereince level that is required.
If you're fresh outta school, I doubt you'll meet the requirements now. Hey no harm in taking a look at the roadshow though! But you might just be wasting your time and energy!
Take a look at the website and you'll see what the expereince level that is required.
If you're fresh outta school, I doubt you'll meet the requirements now. Hey no harm in taking a look at the roadshow though! But you might just be wasting your time and energy!
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smith - I have asked that question myself and been told that for pilots there are no bases other than DXB, but for Cabin Crew there are.
I agree with you, it's one of the reasons I haven't applied myself.
I agree with you, it's one of the reasons I haven't applied myself.
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qwertyuiop
You ask "Why are DEC's not well regarded?"
Let me try and help you out. If you were a SFO at Mon and had been so for say 3 years and were waiting patiently for a command. Then the company had a change of policy and decided to use direct entry Captains. Would you as a SFO be happy?
You ask "Why are DEC's not well regarded?"
Let me try and help you out. If you were a SFO at Mon and had been so for say 3 years and were waiting patiently for a command. Then the company had a change of policy and decided to use direct entry Captains. Would you as a SFO be happy?