Thomsonfly rumour control
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What a wind-up!
To qualify for MFF as commander you must be 737 and 757 rated. The only way to get a (T-fly) 757 rating is to win it in a seniority based bidding round. Since the T-fly 737 DECs would not have sufficient seniority to do so, I'd opine that the suggestion a 737 DEC is somehow going to beat a (more senior) mainline effoh to a 757 command via MFF is the singularly most colossal pile of horse manure I have seen fertilzing the pages of pprune in quite some time......
To qualify for MFF as commander you must be 737 and 757 rated. The only way to get a (T-fly) 757 rating is to win it in a seniority based bidding round. Since the T-fly 737 DECs would not have sufficient seniority to do so, I'd opine that the suggestion a 737 DEC is somehow going to beat a (more senior) mainline effoh to a 757 command via MFF is the singularly most colossal pile of horse manure I have seen fertilzing the pages of pprune in quite some time......
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Sorry 'weary' if that upsets you so vehemently, but it will happen Luton first and then Gatwick, and the DEC'S will be included, however much it hurts, as technically there is no precedent, seniority or otherwise. Sorry if that's bad news leaking out.
Why haven't you raised this on the BALPA forum Tflier? After all what you are suggesting is very serious, following the debacle of the "fleet contraction" at LTN last summer if you let him know I doubt our new CC chairman would let this slip by.
Of course it would help if you actually got the details of the rumour correct first.
Of course it would help if you actually got the details of the rumour correct first.
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The advice about grabbing an upgrade has always been good. It still is.
However, when TFly first kicked off, there were substanstial disincentives for BY guys to go across - lower salaries, basing, type freezes and lower pension terms to name but a few. Also, at the time, there was little if any hint that the two operations would ever cross pollinate to anything like the degree we have today, the implication being that the 756 fleet would not contract, commands would be available and so on. Times changed; the 756 is now seen as a shrinking fleet, the 73 is running some IT routes and there is an more open basing policy. The guys who went across in the early days took a big punt and I'm delighted it worked for them. They risked much personally.
As has been said, BALPA then negotiated equal T & Cs, the basing policy opened up and much of the risk went so it was suddenly a good place to be for gaining a Command or getting into training etc. The DEC uptake was a stop gap and it doesn't seem to have worked so well for some of the DECs. They have my sympathy but something has to act as a filter for all the varied groups, all with their own interests. Seniority is it.
There are several separate issues here that only touch loosely: Seniority, seat, base and type. The only unifying factor is the bid.
The company will (and has the perfect right to) put aircraft wherever they want. The same applies to their decision to do MFF (which BTW is now fully approved) and to do it where they want. If that doesn't suit you then you must resort to changing your bid. That will be looked at based on seniority (and ability if seat changes / training positions form part of it). I'm sorry if that upsets people but that is the way of the world.
It is pointless saying "I'm a senior Captain based in MAN and I want to do MFF and what makes it worse is a junior guy doing it in LTN". MFF is not running in MAN so I'd best bid for LTN and do it now because I can't displace a junior guy once they actually fill that slot. Stop me if I'm wrong but I personally have never seen a gun being held to anyone's head at either contract signing time or at bid time. You can change your bid any time, that's why it's called a standing bid. There are only root and branch bid runs when there are fundamental changes to the operation.
And finally, my understanding is that MFF will run at LTN first as a controlled experiment - a small base that needs MFF to satisfy the operational requirements of the company. It will then roll out further afield but probably not to MAN and LGW because the operation is big enough to support two fleets of pilots. The added wrinkle is that it will be 737 NG (most if not all Classics will soon be gone) and 757 summer, 767 winter. Why ? Because that is what the operation demands. There will be issues with forced base changes as we already know for sure but that is to do with airframe reductions at thiose bases and not as a function of MFF.
The eternal advice stands: Bid for what you want in terms of seat, base, type and type of operation rather than what you think you will get. If you don't get what you want it is because you a) didn't bid (numpty) or b) are junior to all the other people who did get it (live with it and your time will come). Seniority is global.
The one thing we absolutely must do is avoid the petty internicine warfare bewtween the perceived haves and the perceived have nots. When the company does all this they will be facing costs they will seek to avoid. Some of those costs will be those due to pilots forced to move and that is covered by BALPA agreements (subsidised by some here - enjoyed by all). When the company seeks to avoid those costs, and they will, being a fragmented bunch of self interested groups will hand a strong bargaining chip. Ever heard of divide and rule. The company has.
However, when TFly first kicked off, there were substanstial disincentives for BY guys to go across - lower salaries, basing, type freezes and lower pension terms to name but a few. Also, at the time, there was little if any hint that the two operations would ever cross pollinate to anything like the degree we have today, the implication being that the 756 fleet would not contract, commands would be available and so on. Times changed; the 756 is now seen as a shrinking fleet, the 73 is running some IT routes and there is an more open basing policy. The guys who went across in the early days took a big punt and I'm delighted it worked for them. They risked much personally.
As has been said, BALPA then negotiated equal T & Cs, the basing policy opened up and much of the risk went so it was suddenly a good place to be for gaining a Command or getting into training etc. The DEC uptake was a stop gap and it doesn't seem to have worked so well for some of the DECs. They have my sympathy but something has to act as a filter for all the varied groups, all with their own interests. Seniority is it.
There are several separate issues here that only touch loosely: Seniority, seat, base and type. The only unifying factor is the bid.
The company will (and has the perfect right to) put aircraft wherever they want. The same applies to their decision to do MFF (which BTW is now fully approved) and to do it where they want. If that doesn't suit you then you must resort to changing your bid. That will be looked at based on seniority (and ability if seat changes / training positions form part of it). I'm sorry if that upsets people but that is the way of the world.
It is pointless saying "I'm a senior Captain based in MAN and I want to do MFF and what makes it worse is a junior guy doing it in LTN". MFF is not running in MAN so I'd best bid for LTN and do it now because I can't displace a junior guy once they actually fill that slot. Stop me if I'm wrong but I personally have never seen a gun being held to anyone's head at either contract signing time or at bid time. You can change your bid any time, that's why it's called a standing bid. There are only root and branch bid runs when there are fundamental changes to the operation.
And finally, my understanding is that MFF will run at LTN first as a controlled experiment - a small base that needs MFF to satisfy the operational requirements of the company. It will then roll out further afield but probably not to MAN and LGW because the operation is big enough to support two fleets of pilots. The added wrinkle is that it will be 737 NG (most if not all Classics will soon be gone) and 757 summer, 767 winter. Why ? Because that is what the operation demands. There will be issues with forced base changes as we already know for sure but that is to do with airframe reductions at thiose bases and not as a function of MFF.
The eternal advice stands: Bid for what you want in terms of seat, base, type and type of operation rather than what you think you will get. If you don't get what you want it is because you a) didn't bid (numpty) or b) are junior to all the other people who did get it (live with it and your time will come). Seniority is global.
The one thing we absolutely must do is avoid the petty internicine warfare bewtween the perceived haves and the perceived have nots. When the company does all this they will be facing costs they will seek to avoid. Some of those costs will be those due to pilots forced to move and that is covered by BALPA agreements (subsidised by some here - enjoyed by all). When the company seeks to avoid those costs, and they will, being a fragmented bunch of self interested groups will hand a strong bargaining chip. Ever heard of divide and rule. The company has.
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Yeoman - well played, good post 
Tflier - Could you tell me which charity you've nominated to give your recent (BALPA negociated) payrise to? It would be good to make it known so other FLSB could also contribute.
Tflier - Could you tell me which charity you've nominated to give your recent (BALPA negociated) payrise to? It would be good to make it known so other FLSB could also contribute.
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So this MMF malarky .. let me get this straight .. we get trained on the 75 or 76 and the NG .. but due to most of our low seniority in the left we dont get any plumb routes like a week in CUN .. just the opportunity to do the friday night Ibiza .. no extra money for all this book work each night before flying just to check you know your "onions"... or will the long haul then be allocated by base .. so potentially a low seniority crew may then be rostered a long haul trip ahead of "Captain and F/O high on seniority list" .. You see MFF is being heralded as close to the "second coming" however it would be nice if someone from management or BALPA would explain the possible implications to us all. My feeling is they havn't as no one has worked it out .. worried naaah .. concerned ..possibly .. intrigued definitely ..
Or is this like Carmen to be thrust on us without any thorough explanation of how it truly works, how it hangs together .. and as the document stated "Bid for what you really want " .. which as we all now know was the worse advice since someone told Tony Blair "You know those Iraqi's we reckon they have weapons of mass destruction" ... so feeling in the dark and grappling for a light switch .. or even a very dim candle just to spot the way forward
Or is this like Carmen to be thrust on us without any thorough explanation of how it truly works, how it hangs together .. and as the document stated "Bid for what you really want " .. which as we all now know was the worse advice since someone told Tony Blair "You know those Iraqi's we reckon they have weapons of mass destruction" ... so feeling in the dark and grappling for a light switch .. or even a very dim candle just to spot the way forward
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Donnie
Sorry if the advice on bidding for what you want doesn't strike a chord with you but it does fly in the face of accepted wisdom! It appears that you are towards the bottom of the seniority list (impression given by your comments - if I'm wrong, ignore me, most do!). Granted, the bottom of the list is going to miss out if, and a big if, the current seniority based ruling on Long Haul bidding remains. I'm not convinced it will.
Already an anomaly that gave the senior Winter Designated Long Haul Pilots (WDLP) an advantage has been removed - essentially the summer guys did all the dross and got penalised when the better winter stuff came along. So, progress, slow but progress. The feeling is that the whole process is long overdue for a revamp and MFF would probably precipitate that. There will still be a process of demand -v- supply and that way round. The only logical way to sort that is by use of seniority but as an exercise, what would you propose?
Other factors include the question "why 767 in the winter and 757 in the summer?". At a guess it is because the Long Haul programme is at it's peak in the winter and is very crew hungry. We have seen the company operating LH out of all sorts of bases so could it be that they plan to extend that and use local based pilots rather than the Gods from afar? Couple that with the fact that MFF is unlikely to happen at MAN and LGW and you could need suntan cream sooner than you think (I'm guessing you're DSA?).
Remember also that the ratio of crews on the Beach Fleet -v- the Fischer-Price Fleet will change and I would see you competing on a seniority basis much more at base level rather than globally. Surely one of the stated aims of MFF must be to try and rein in the astronomical costs of pilots operating away from their base? That said, with current management...................
As for long nights in the books to suffer the Friday IBZ, don't fret, see it as a bit of variation. People do opt out of LH as well. The bottom line is that seniority has always been good to some, not so good to others. Until seniority is replaced that will remain so. Until now I have done well out of it so it would be trite of me to say "I sympathise". So, being trite, having enjoyed being in the right place at the right time, I sympathise with guys who haven't had such a good run! If it's any consolation, my wise (?) crack about the Beach and Fischer-Price Fleets is about to come back and haunt me - I'm on my way over to The Dark Side because that is where I see the future.
Anyway mate, keep yer head down and yer bum up, if nothing else, enjoy the flying and the T & Cs which by any measure are the envy of many and I look forward to meeting you on the line. God help me!
Sorry if the advice on bidding for what you want doesn't strike a chord with you but it does fly in the face of accepted wisdom! It appears that you are towards the bottom of the seniority list (impression given by your comments - if I'm wrong, ignore me, most do!). Granted, the bottom of the list is going to miss out if, and a big if, the current seniority based ruling on Long Haul bidding remains. I'm not convinced it will.
Already an anomaly that gave the senior Winter Designated Long Haul Pilots (WDLP) an advantage has been removed - essentially the summer guys did all the dross and got penalised when the better winter stuff came along. So, progress, slow but progress. The feeling is that the whole process is long overdue for a revamp and MFF would probably precipitate that. There will still be a process of demand -v- supply and that way round. The only logical way to sort that is by use of seniority but as an exercise, what would you propose?
Other factors include the question "why 767 in the winter and 757 in the summer?". At a guess it is because the Long Haul programme is at it's peak in the winter and is very crew hungry. We have seen the company operating LH out of all sorts of bases so could it be that they plan to extend that and use local based pilots rather than the Gods from afar? Couple that with the fact that MFF is unlikely to happen at MAN and LGW and you could need suntan cream sooner than you think (I'm guessing you're DSA?).
Remember also that the ratio of crews on the Beach Fleet -v- the Fischer-Price Fleet will change and I would see you competing on a seniority basis much more at base level rather than globally. Surely one of the stated aims of MFF must be to try and rein in the astronomical costs of pilots operating away from their base? That said, with current management...................
As for long nights in the books to suffer the Friday IBZ, don't fret, see it as a bit of variation. People do opt out of LH as well. The bottom line is that seniority has always been good to some, not so good to others. Until seniority is replaced that will remain so. Until now I have done well out of it so it would be trite of me to say "I sympathise". So, being trite, having enjoyed being in the right place at the right time, I sympathise with guys who haven't had such a good run! If it's any consolation, my wise (?) crack about the Beach and Fischer-Price Fleets is about to come back and haunt me - I'm on my way over to The Dark Side because that is where I see the future.
Anyway mate, keep yer head down and yer bum up, if nothing else, enjoy the flying and the T & Cs which by any measure are the envy of many and I look forward to meeting you on the line. God help me!
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tflier .. didnt you know we are all prima donna's on the fisher price fleet .. if you are going to have a pop at us then your can do sooooo much better than that i am sure. come on give it your best shot .. its entertaining if nothing else
yeoman .. an interesting and well thought out post cheers .. and hey its not so bad on the dark side .. look at Darth vader he spent his life on the dark side and ended up being one of the good guys
yeoman .. an interesting and well thought out post cheers .. and hey its not so bad on the dark side .. look at Darth vader he spent his life on the dark side and ended up being one of the good guys
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Thank you Donnie - I shall try and emulate him. I already look like him.
TFlier: An earlier post alluded to most of your posts being of the stirring nature. It is difficult to disagree.
On the subject of BALPA, it is probably unfair and certainly unacceptable to imply you don't have a right of comment because you are not a member. That is your choice as much as it is the choice of members to have joined and accept that the subs benefit those who don't contribute. That too will not change. However you deny yourself an important opportunity, via the BALPA website, to voice your opinion and be heard by those trying to get the best deal for everyone, namely the CC. Unfortuenately you would lose the cloak of anonymity but it means you could actually better your lot. As it is your sniping from the sidelines does nothing for your prospects and gets right up everyone's pipe. By all means challenge the staus quo - progress demands it but come out of the shadows, form a reasoned argument and be heard. If it puts all this inter fleet warfare to bed then sign me up right now - as I said earlier, it plays right into the hands of management.
What is happening here is an attempt at a reasoned debate. I apologise for the fleet size crack as it clearly offends you. There is of course an option to trying to use the established system to better your lot. Leave. Lots of places going at FlyBe. Failing that, accept that there will always be losers, the question is how much of a loser you want to be? Make of that what you will.
Anyway, if you like, I'll draw you a picture when I get back from my ballet class.
TFlier: An earlier post alluded to most of your posts being of the stirring nature. It is difficult to disagree.
On the subject of BALPA, it is probably unfair and certainly unacceptable to imply you don't have a right of comment because you are not a member. That is your choice as much as it is the choice of members to have joined and accept that the subs benefit those who don't contribute. That too will not change. However you deny yourself an important opportunity, via the BALPA website, to voice your opinion and be heard by those trying to get the best deal for everyone, namely the CC. Unfortuenately you would lose the cloak of anonymity but it means you could actually better your lot. As it is your sniping from the sidelines does nothing for your prospects and gets right up everyone's pipe. By all means challenge the staus quo - progress demands it but come out of the shadows, form a reasoned argument and be heard. If it puts all this inter fleet warfare to bed then sign me up right now - as I said earlier, it plays right into the hands of management.
What is happening here is an attempt at a reasoned debate. I apologise for the fleet size crack as it clearly offends you. There is of course an option to trying to use the established system to better your lot. Leave. Lots of places going at FlyBe. Failing that, accept that there will always be losers, the question is how much of a loser you want to be? Make of that what you will.
Anyway, if you like, I'll draw you a picture when I get back from my ballet class.
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Welcome to First Choice!
FT. Sunday March 18 2007 19:24
Tui set for tour business merger.
By Roger Blitz in London and Ralph Atkins in Frankfurt.
The Tui board was on Sunday expected to agree to merge its tour operating business with First Choice a move that would see Europes four leading tour operators consolidate into two in just over a month.
The German-based operator, whose brands include Thomson Holidays of the UK and the pan-European Airtours, would take a 51 per cent stake in a business to be called Tui Travel, according to people close to the proposed deal, creating Europe,s largest tour operator.
First Choice would take the remaining 49 per cent and Peter Long, its chief exeuctive, would run the merged company, which would take over First Choice,s London listing. Michael Frenzel, chief executive of Tui, would be the new company,s chairman.
Tui shipping and other interests would be run separately from its Hanover base. Mr Frenzel has repeatedly resisted calls to split up the group.
Tui supervisory board was locked in talks which began on Sunday afternoon, but the company declined to comment.
The combined group, which unites the number one and number three tour operators in Europe, would have annual revenues of more than £10bn, and expect to have made synergies of £100m by the third year of operation.
The deal is a mirror image of the merger agreed by Thomas Cook and MyTravel, the second and fourth biggest operators whose merger was agreed last month.
The Thomas Cook-MyTravel merger, another German-British combination, killed off First Choices hopes of selling its tour package business, called Mainstream, to either party in order to focus on specialist and adventure holidays.
Both mergers could come to the attention of the European Commission which last looked at competition in the tour operating business in 2000. The industry has since been fundamentally changed by the impact of low-cost airlines and the internet which has revolutionised consumers behaviour in booking holidays.
Like other tour operators, Tui has been under pressure to boost the performance of its travel business activities. But Tuis shipping divisions have also faced restructuring costs and pricing pressures.
In December, Tui signalled it might report a loss for the year and announced that the group would skip a dividend payment. Earlier in the month, it had announced 4,000 job cuts, mostly at Thomson Holidays, reflecting the poor state of the UK travel market.
First Choice, with a market value of £1.4bn, earlier this month reported winter holiday revenues up 12 per cent and said it has exercised options to buy four Boeing 787 airliners to add to its fleet of 32 planes. It also paid £30m for three activity holiday companies.
JPMorgan last month said European tour operators could expect continued good growth and were adapting their strategies to changing circumstances.
Tui set for tour business merger.
By Roger Blitz in London and Ralph Atkins in Frankfurt.
The Tui board was on Sunday expected to agree to merge its tour operating business with First Choice a move that would see Europes four leading tour operators consolidate into two in just over a month.
The German-based operator, whose brands include Thomson Holidays of the UK and the pan-European Airtours, would take a 51 per cent stake in a business to be called Tui Travel, according to people close to the proposed deal, creating Europe,s largest tour operator.
First Choice would take the remaining 49 per cent and Peter Long, its chief exeuctive, would run the merged company, which would take over First Choice,s London listing. Michael Frenzel, chief executive of Tui, would be the new company,s chairman.
Tui shipping and other interests would be run separately from its Hanover base. Mr Frenzel has repeatedly resisted calls to split up the group.
Tui supervisory board was locked in talks which began on Sunday afternoon, but the company declined to comment.
The combined group, which unites the number one and number three tour operators in Europe, would have annual revenues of more than £10bn, and expect to have made synergies of £100m by the third year of operation.
The deal is a mirror image of the merger agreed by Thomas Cook and MyTravel, the second and fourth biggest operators whose merger was agreed last month.
The Thomas Cook-MyTravel merger, another German-British combination, killed off First Choices hopes of selling its tour package business, called Mainstream, to either party in order to focus on specialist and adventure holidays.
Both mergers could come to the attention of the European Commission which last looked at competition in the tour operating business in 2000. The industry has since been fundamentally changed by the impact of low-cost airlines and the internet which has revolutionised consumers behaviour in booking holidays.
Like other tour operators, Tui has been under pressure to boost the performance of its travel business activities. But Tuis shipping divisions have also faced restructuring costs and pricing pressures.
In December, Tui signalled it might report a loss for the year and announced that the group would skip a dividend payment. Earlier in the month, it had announced 4,000 job cuts, mostly at Thomson Holidays, reflecting the poor state of the UK travel market.
First Choice, with a market value of £1.4bn, earlier this month reported winter holiday revenues up 12 per cent and said it has exercised options to buy four Boeing 787 airliners to add to its fleet of 32 planes. It also paid £30m for three activity holiday companies.
JPMorgan last month said European tour operators could expect continued good growth and were adapting their strategies to changing circumstances.
Ut Sementem Feeceris
Quote"..... The German-based operator, whose brands include Thomson Holidays of the UK and the pan-European Airtours......."
Since when has TUI had a pan-European brand called Airtours?
Is this another example of well researched journalism?
A4
Since when has TUI had a pan-European brand called Airtours?
Is this another example of well researched journalism?
A4
