BA NAPS Pension - Revaluation Doubles Defecit
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BA expects everybody to work longer, whether they are in NAPS or not, whether they are pilots or not. Everybodys going to be working longer due to the change to age discrimination laws. You are confusing the two subjects.
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potkettleblack
i am litterally the last person in the naps scheme (joined at 19 in 2002 after apprenticeship) and i am seriously worried about there being anything left by the time i retire. if the retirement age is raised to 68 then including my apprenticeship i could concieveably work for the company for 52 years and retire on a pittance.something needs to be done and soon.
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Potkettleblack- or alternatively you will be the last man standing to take what's left in the pot and there's no telling what that might be by then!
More seriously though , if you work until 68, all the graphs say you may not have to eke out your pension for quite so long.
More seriously though , if you work until 68, all the graphs say you may not have to eke out your pension for quite so long.
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bamcb38c
One way of looking at it is that, if we fail to get the company to compromise on it's awful proposals, is that you still have over 40 years to sort out your retirement.
Either way I agree it is not a pleasant prospect.
One way of looking at it is that, if we fail to get the company to compromise on it's awful proposals, is that you still have over 40 years to sort out your retirement.
Either way I agree it is not a pleasant prospect.
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Very true TB time to find a proper career. Added to this list of woes is also the issue of BA being bought out because I cannot see that there is much protection if we find ourselves working for Emirates. Such things even with our present debt mountain are never beyond the realms of possibility.
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HZ123,
No chance of being bought out I should think - whoever were to do so also buys the pension debt! One pensions analyst did suggest BA's best forward going business plan was to liquidate the company. Pension scheme lost, then start afresh a new company. Never would be allowed to happen of course, but has a business sense to it given the scale of the pension debt that BA faces.
After the pension legislation changes in April, Trustee boards now have to negotiate and AGREE a pension recovery plan with the employer following actuarial valuation. The Pensions Regulator has said that any recovery plan longer than 10 years, would trigger an in depth investigation of the scheme by themselves. Given the size of the blackhole, it's difficult to see that being achieved..........
General comment:-
Remember this is not only a BA pension crisis! All final salary schemes have suffered the same fate. My charter airline has committed large sums of extra money to the scheme over the next few years, and has already input a large amount. We will however suffer the same type of increase in the blackhole as BA at the next valuation for reasons stated in previous post.
Over the last 2 years, our pilot workforce has been pushed into nearly 50% increased contributions by members. Although scheme NRD is 60, you could go at 55 without penalty (only using pensionable servic figures to 55 of course). This was taken away, and now early retirement takes a penalty of 6%/yr from your pension. So, go at 55, and be offered pension rights to 55 minus 30%!
All this was consulted on through BALPA at New Road! BALPA told us the pension problem was everyones problem, and for things to work we ALL had to recognise pensions, life expectancy, etc had changed. The changes were implemented with BALPA doing 'roadshows' alongside the company to recommend the change!
I do find it pretty disgusting, that now it's BA, suggestions of increased members contributions, extended working are all so totally unacceptable. When other parts of the industry were looking for support was it available - were BA pilots interested as long as they were ok? I think you already know the answers...............
Sorry, but for those of us who alreday have had their pension conditions changed with BALPA's support aren't going to be lending weight to BA keeping all theirs
Good luck though!
30W
No chance of being bought out I should think - whoever were to do so also buys the pension debt! One pensions analyst did suggest BA's best forward going business plan was to liquidate the company. Pension scheme lost, then start afresh a new company. Never would be allowed to happen of course, but has a business sense to it given the scale of the pension debt that BA faces.
After the pension legislation changes in April, Trustee boards now have to negotiate and AGREE a pension recovery plan with the employer following actuarial valuation. The Pensions Regulator has said that any recovery plan longer than 10 years, would trigger an in depth investigation of the scheme by themselves. Given the size of the blackhole, it's difficult to see that being achieved..........
General comment:-
Remember this is not only a BA pension crisis! All final salary schemes have suffered the same fate. My charter airline has committed large sums of extra money to the scheme over the next few years, and has already input a large amount. We will however suffer the same type of increase in the blackhole as BA at the next valuation for reasons stated in previous post.
Over the last 2 years, our pilot workforce has been pushed into nearly 50% increased contributions by members. Although scheme NRD is 60, you could go at 55 without penalty (only using pensionable servic figures to 55 of course). This was taken away, and now early retirement takes a penalty of 6%/yr from your pension. So, go at 55, and be offered pension rights to 55 minus 30%!
All this was consulted on through BALPA at New Road! BALPA told us the pension problem was everyones problem, and for things to work we ALL had to recognise pensions, life expectancy, etc had changed. The changes were implemented with BALPA doing 'roadshows' alongside the company to recommend the change!
I do find it pretty disgusting, that now it's BA, suggestions of increased members contributions, extended working are all so totally unacceptable. When other parts of the industry were looking for support was it available - were BA pilots interested as long as they were ok? I think you already know the answers...............
Sorry, but for those of us who alreday have had their pension conditions changed with BALPA's support aren't going to be lending weight to BA keeping all theirs
Good luck though!
30W
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Although there is a risk to the fund that folk will live longer than previous generations, it is by no means a certainty. Ask any Russian, who knows that life expectancy has fallen rapidly in the last two generations. What about bird flu, obesity, diabetes, MRSA, war, revolution and a host of other surprises that could alter the projections overnight.
So, no need to rush an agreement, it will be 80 years before the last NAPS pensioner is dead. The tide could easily turn. Any agreement needs the flexibility to revert back to the present generous benefits.
So, no need to rush an agreement, it will be 80 years before the last NAPS pensioner is dead. The tide could easily turn. Any agreement needs the flexibility to revert back to the present generous benefits.
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There are LOTS of assumptions within the actuarial valuation, life expectancy being only one of them. The assumptions all have to be agreed with the Trustee Board. I did 18 months ago ask BALPA to try and produce some accurate data on life expectancy of pilots post retirement. Is it same as national averages or less? (effect of increased radiation/body clock changes etc). If accurate data was available relating to the majority of a schemes members, then the valuation would be justified in using that data in it's assumptions. Sadly, no data has been produced. Till then, since Trustees are legally charged with acting 'prudently', it is only reasonable that the most up to date longeveity tables are used from within the pensions/insurance industry.
Since the scheme is a 'closed' scheme, it is doubtful BA will keep it to it's bitter end (last pensioner dies). More likely, when membership numbers reach a certain level it will be sold off to an insurance company.
If in years to come the scheme is not in debt, rest assured getting generous terms for employees will be a huge if not impossible battle. More likely the principal employer, BA in this case, will take a pension holiday based on the huge sums it has invested to get the scheme 'healthy' again.
30w
Since the scheme is a 'closed' scheme, it is doubtful BA will keep it to it's bitter end (last pensioner dies). More likely, when membership numbers reach a certain level it will be sold off to an insurance company.
If in years to come the scheme is not in debt, rest assured getting generous terms for employees will be a huge if not impossible battle. More likely the principal employer, BA in this case, will take a pension holiday based on the huge sums it has invested to get the scheme 'healthy' again.
30w
Couldonlyaffordafiver
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One option is to pay it off, exactly as Lufthansa did and get on with the business of being an airline.
BA have the cash (yes, cash!!) to do it and have been paying off debt at the rate of £1.2 billion per year for the past five years whilst still making a profit. Why should a pension debt be any different? It is deferred pay after all.
See the 11 pages of BA pilots 'prepared to strike' thread on R & N.
BA have the cash (yes, cash!!) to do it and have been paying off debt at the rate of £1.2 billion per year for the past five years whilst still making a profit. Why should a pension debt be any different? It is deferred pay after all.
See the 11 pages of BA pilots 'prepared to strike' thread on R & N.
I am willing to lay a friendly wager ....... that BA will NOT pay the deficit in full ..... nothing like full. It will only pay something like a third to a quarter.
If I am wrong it will be a pleasant surprise. Nevertheless, I don't think I am going to be surprised!
If I am wrong it will be a pleasant surprise. Nevertheless, I don't think I am going to be surprised!
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Sorry excuse for a government
Don't worry chaps because if this sorry excuse for a government remains in power much longer the only folks with any money will be the ne'er do wells. Mister Brown, being the son of a very frugally minded Scottish Minister of Religion wants to give ALL your money away to the huge underclass he has produced as a result of his governments policies.
More handouts for the young single parents of 13 or 14 so they and their uneducated scroat boyfriends can have at least 4 children before they themselves reach the age of majority ie 21.
More handouts for the richly deserving immigrants who will be provided with ALL the necessities of life without so much as paying a penny in taxes.
More handouts to foreign criminals to encourage them to 'go home' only for them to use a small portion of that handout to buy a return ticket to Never Never Land (was called UK)
So don't worry about pension shortfalls - just think in terms of shortfall FULL STOP!
More handouts for the young single parents of 13 or 14 so they and their uneducated scroat boyfriends can have at least 4 children before they themselves reach the age of majority ie 21.
More handouts for the richly deserving immigrants who will be provided with ALL the necessities of life without so much as paying a penny in taxes.
More handouts to foreign criminals to encourage them to 'go home' only for them to use a small portion of that handout to buy a return ticket to Never Never Land (was called UK)
So don't worry about pension shortfalls - just think in terms of shortfall FULL STOP!
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There was a 1 year gap between post 5 & 6 on this thread and the deficit grew from £928 million to £2.1 billion. I just hope they sort it out soon for the sake of all the staff.
