I worked out my hourly pay rate can you guess what it is?

[Dave]

Thanks k-o-t-s. Thats the point I was trying to make.

And no I did NOT include time asleep in the hotel!

[jonseagull]

Salry in excess of £40K and presumably in the RHS.
How old are you Dave ?
How are your friends of the same age doing with regard to yourself and what are their prospects for future salary increases compared to yours?
What will your salary be in a few years time after you have completed your apprenticeship in the RHS?

I am not saying that we, as a professional group, should not strive for better conditions but a post like this is , perhaps, not the way to go about it.

All the best climbing the ladder. The view gets better the higher you get ! (until something knocks you off!!!)

[Hirsutesme]

But it's not really about money is it. my hourly rate is £30, apparently nearly double yours. But that is calculated on a notional 35 hour week. When do I work 35 hours...never. It's usually 45, sometimes 50, has been over 60, still take home exactly the same regardless.
Why do I do it, I like the job, the work is rewarding on various levels and I take pride in it.

[buzzc152]

Just to make you feel better, I fly twin pistons for a about half your salary. I calculate my hourly pay at approx £50-55/hour. Not bad eh ??

[sarah737]

Originally Posted by kingoftheslipstream

Hey Dave
I worked for a carrier in North America, I did this for a year and as an FO on an A319/320/321 I was making about $3.15 USD per pax per hour of stick time... it's not much k-o-t-s

Kots, a 150 ish pax would make almost 500$ an hour
AND YOU CALL THAT NOT MUCH??????

[cwatters]

Originally Posted by puddle-jumper2

Hours worked is Duty hours, you get paid for the hours at work not the hours in the air. i.e. pre flight prep. - post flight duties etc.
Most pilots where I work (large U.K. airline) are doing around 1800 duty hours...

Thats an average of less than 38 hours a week. Many folk do that and commute and commute two hours a day.

[Pilot Pete]

Originally Posted by cwatters

Thats an average of less than 38 hours a week. Many folk do that and commute and commute two hours a day.

But remember, commuters tend to sleep every NIGHT, get all their weekends off and hence aren't fighting jet lag all their lives. A study I read many years ago said that a career of shift work knocks on average about 5 years off your life expectancy.

Pilot is one of the easiest of the responsible jobs. You set your parking brake and go home. Everyone else can't do that.

Well, as has been pointed out it is not the cruise phase when we demonstrate all our responsibility, when the perception is we are sitting there drinking coffee and chatting. The main responsibility is the WHAT IF and remaining ahead of the game, waiting, perhaps a whole career for the bad day of all days when you are called upon to demonstrate your professional skills under quite possibly extreme pressure. THAT is what we get paid for. We can't set the parking brake then and go home......

I have responsibility for up to 180 people up to 4 times a day, plus countless thousands of people on the ground.

Well Dave, I would take slight issue with that comment. The CAPTAIN has that responsibility on a daily basis, not the F/O (I am assuming you are an F/O and not a very badly paid captain?). You have the POTENTIAL to take that responsibility IF the captain is incapacitated. Even when you are at the controls, the ultimate responsibility is that of the captain. That is why he/ she gets paid considerably more than the F/O.

The fact you get paid as you do is because you are willing to be paid that amount. If you weren't, and nobody else was either, the employer would have to pay more.

Very true words from M Mouse. It's market forces. If you don't think you are paid enough, you need to motivate yourself and your colleagues into action, usually through a union to demand more. An employer is always going to pay the minimum they can get away with and starry eyed wanabees for this profession are driving down the going rate for new entrants, that plus the fact that they are 'in for a penny, in for a pound' by the time they get the licence issued and simply have to bend over and take what they can get. Again, employers have seen this opportunity to drive down the starting salaries by exploiting those individuals, so they do.

I had a neigbour once who flew for a major airline. He told me that they lived entirely off his allowances and stashed his salary every month.

Well, Heathrow Director, those days are gone for anyone joining the industry now. It sounds like the individual you refer to was one of the 'golden generation', from my parents era who had the best opportunities that this country has ever been able to offer; a good education, lifetime employment if you wanted it, gold seal pensions, biggest house price increases ever, less 'red tape' surrounding everything and probably the ability to choose some of the best 'lifestyle' options ever too. Lucky them eh?

We've had all this discussion before and it usually ends up with us being compared to doctors and the like. But look at the average GP. His salary has increased significantly in the last year or so. He trains for 7 years, pretty much what the average captain will have done I would guess. He can opt out of night work now, the average captain can't. He works predominantly 9-5, the average captain doesn't. He sees a continuous flow of basic ailments, which probably don't stretch his knowledge and professionalism that much; similar to an 'average' flight I would guess. He gets the odd case where he doesn't know what it is. He assesses if the person is going to drop dead from it and if not, goes through a process of elimination using various tried and trusted 'catch alls', like antibiotics. If there is no improvement he refers them on to a more senior, specialist colleague. Some responsibility there, but only 'life and death' in terms of being negligent in not referring them. Your average captain however, when faced with a 'real life' problem cannot just pass it on to a senior colleague. He has a finite amount of time in which to make decisions, possibly without all the info he needs, sometimes faced with choices between two or more 'undesirables', where there is no easy option. That is where the jobs start to differ and IMHO where the captain takes on considerably more responsibility than your average GP. I would compare him more to a surgeon who encounters complications with an operation every once in a while and who has to then think on his toes and come up with solutions to difficult problems.

It is this KNOWLEDGE and ability to make decisions under pressure, within finite constraints and with the 'real world' still flashing by that a captain gets paid for. Hopefully he will never have to use all his training, but I guarantee that for your £1.99 fare to Barcelona you will still expect him to be a well trained, respected professional if it all starts going wrong somewhere over the Pyrenees in the descent....

When I last looked I didn't notice many captain salaries on a par with surgeons though....

PP

[Will Hung]

Hey Guys, ever heard of the most basic economic principle - SUPPLY AND DEMAND ?

[Lembrado]

PP

Comparing a pilots job (captain) with that of a surgeon is laughable - you imply that all operations are a routine affair.

Other than that comment, points well made.

L.

[markflyer6580]

I earned £36 for 9 hours yesterday! The joys of self employment!

[tiggerific_69]

Dave
you could be on a cabin crew salary...
work that one out as an hourly rate!

[mustafagander]

OK, tell me when a surgeon is "out there" unable to take advise from a soul. Airline captains live life that way - our biggest risk decisions are all done alone.

[puddle-jumper2]

Cwatters,

I also commute 2 hours a day. Some I know are up to 4 hours but that's pushing it.

As someone has already said though..... it's all about market forces and what your willing to put up with.

Surgeons are not easily replaced, neither are pilots. All the reason to fight for what we deserve. Q the union.

[anotherthing]

Dave,

you stated you paid £70k to train, you don't sleep very night, you work some weekends etc etc. Was this not apparent to you before you decided on your career?

Kingoftheslipstream - I am an ATCO working in the London TMA - if i was to sit down and work out my wage based on passengers I had controlled per year, I would be counting pennies per hour (cents) and possibly not even in the plural!!

I see you worked in the military beforehand - Iflew in the mil as well.... despite all your protestations, I bet you have to agree that flying in civvy street is far less demanding and is probably boring compared to your military days (unless of course you were a tanker or truckie).

Dave has a good job with a good wage. It's maybe not a wage that he feels is commensurate with his skill or responsibility - I would probably agree; I certainly feel I am underpaid at times!

The other things that come with it - unsocial hours etc is part and parcel of the job,it's a known factor and therefore anyone who pays good money to train to be a pilot has no right to then turn round years later and whinge about standard practices!!

[Pilot Pete]

Originally Posted by Lembrado

PP

Comparing a pilots job (captain) with that of a surgeon is laughable - you imply that all operations are a routine affair.

Not the intention. The comparison was with the decision making element when things go wrong. What I would say though is that surgeons plan their operations thoroughly, just like a captain does with each flight. To the surgeon who has done hundreds of operations in the same area, they are 'routine' to him (a quote from a recent surgeon who diagnosed at a small ganglion in my right hand). All operations have the potential for things to go wrong, just like any flight I conduct, but the vast majority go without hitch, or with relatively minor problems which are sorted out on the day, just like my average flight. So, sure, where anaesthetic is being used and patients vary from fit and healthy otherwise to obese smokers, there is an increased risk and therefore the term 'routine' is perhaps not appropriate in that context, but to the surgeon the operation is routine because he is so well planned and has made a full risk assessment before even thinking of putting 'knife to skin'. Exactly why a flight from A to B is pretty much routine too, although there is still the risk of things not going to plan.

As with the surgeon, we always have the option of not going (say really bad weather), just as he would do if he felt the risks associated with the operation outweighed the potential benefit to the patient.

Operations come in many shapes and sizes and with differing degrees of technical difficulty and associated risk. Again, just like flights: major city airport to major city airport in a heavily controlled environment, no terrain issues and a radar vectored ILS with an 8nm final is about at straightforward as it gets, but go to somewhere like Samos, where I went yesterday with terrain, an instrument approach offset by 90 degrees to the runway, a visual segment flown very close to terrain with a curved descent rolling out onto about a 2nm final with an 18 gusting 28 kt crosswind onto a short runway and you get the picture.....

Pioneering operations are delving into the possible unknown, with significantly increased risk of failure and complications. In this area the surgeon stands alone and can only be compared with the likes of space explorers, certainly not your average line pilot, but those are the Professors of their career, pushing the boundaries and are a 'cut above the rest' (pun intended!). I wouldn't dream of comparing a pilot to them, unless he was a test pilot breaking real new ground (bit like the supersonic test pilots).

The point I would make is that your average airline captain should (in an equal world) earn more than your average GP, probably somewhere near your average surgeon as the jobs are comparable in my mind. They aren't, due to market forces, and possibly the fact that surgeons are still members of an exclusive club, whereas pilots are not.

PP

[M.Mouse]

I recently flew with an FO who joined BA from Ryanair. A very balanced, likeable and competent individual who had achieved something like 2,500 hours with Ryanair. We spent an hour or two in the cruise discussing his previous employer.

I was truly staggered at the whole pilot package with Ryanair. It goes to prove that while their are plenty of us willing to virtually pay for the chance to do the job the salaries for newbies and with the smaller airlines will always be abysmal. As my man said it has subsequently proved worthwhile!

I cannot criticise anybody doing what is necessary to gain that elusive first job and subsequent experience but that willingness is the very thing which keeps them in relative poverty for so long and fuels the continued downward pressure on the higher salaries and benefits which I and my colleagues currently enjoy.

I believe it is called market forces.

Who is the dummy, Mr. O'Leary or the pilot willing to work for him?

[Human Factor]

well, sleeping in a 5 star hotel is also work...

I suppose it is as it's not time spent at home, although Dave didn't include that in his figures.

[UTRF]

Aw diddums

Can't see your point old chap.
You spend most of your time sat on your backside watching dials and screens...not as if your over-worked, is it?
Perhaps you want to spend some time behind the counter in McD's, on your feet all day, then you might get some sympathy.

[chandlers dad]

If you really want to be sad, look at what we pay someone to fix our plumbing in the house when it leaks. How about the gent working on your Porsche or Benz? Bet its not far under what most pilots with less than 10 years senority are making.

As well we get to look forwards to being a WalMart greeter or McDonnalds employee every six months when doing our sim ride or medical.

Yes, we did choose it for a vocation but the more and more they pile crap on the situation it sure makes me think about doing something else. Now just noticed that Delta, among others in the states, have been allowed by the court to stop paying pilots pensions. It just gets better and better...

CD

[Strepsils]

Some of the replies to this really make me wish this site was restricted to professional pilots only (and ATCO/ENG's).

You spend most of your time sat on your backside watching dials and screens...not as if your over-worked, is it?

I assume ignorance is bliss, UTRF? UYOA more like.


"Spend some time behind the counter in McD's"?

Would you really want the average McD's assistant in charge of your holiday/business flight?

You pay peanuts, you get monkeys.