Ouch! That bl**dy well hurts......
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 228
Likes: 15
From: Here and there....currently here.
Originally Posted by TURIN
Well as an engineering technician I find it a bloomin affront to be lumped in with the pilots!
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 8,571
Likes: 3
From: Arizona USA
Hmmm, pilots and train drivers.
Yep, this about sums it up for the younger guys.
I notice that the category for CAPTAIN (or, if you prefer, COMMANDER) is absent.
By reference, this is clearly in an elevated category, as in 'senior management.'
Now, if we could only get the salary commensurate with the experience....at least in the long(er) term.
Yep, this about sums it up for the younger guys.
I notice that the category for CAPTAIN (or, if you prefer, COMMANDER) is absent.
By reference, this is clearly in an elevated category, as in 'senior management.'
Now, if we could only get the salary commensurate with the experience....at least in the long(er) term.
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 181
Likes: 0
From: Cartoon strip
Hmm, so much for statistics. Apparently that would put me in Section 1:
1137 Research and development managers
(http://www.statistics.gov.uk/methods...c/section1.asp)
However, I know my salary level is about the same as a typical senior FO in a lot of UK + Irish airlines and my day to day responsibilities are nowhere close when it comes to people (as opposed to financial).
No doubt this cost the UK gov many £'s to produce.....money well spent if you are a statistician that is......
1137 Research and development managers
(http://www.statistics.gov.uk/methods...c/section1.asp)
However, I know my salary level is about the same as a typical senior FO in a lot of UK + Irish airlines and my day to day responsibilities are nowhere close when it comes to people (as opposed to financial).
No doubt this cost the UK gov many £'s to produce.....money well spent if you are a statistician that is......
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 254
Likes: 0
From: New Zealand
Perhaps this list is a sign of the times, just as the following from Daily Mail is.
Rolls Royce boss despairs at lack of British engineering talent
By MANFREDA CAVAZZA and BECKY BARROW, Daily Mail
22:00pm 27th July 2006
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/liv...n_page_id=1770
Britain's most presitigious manufacturing firm has admitted that it is being forced to look overseas for talented graduates.
The boss of Rolls-Royce - a byword for excellence around the world - warned of the skills crisis in this country.
The company is already getting about a quarter of its annual intake of graduates from overseas, mainly America and Germany.
But Sir John Rose, 53, chief executive, said this will rise as British graduates favour soft subjects, such as media studies and hospitality.
He said: 'There is no doubt that there are some skills where we are increasingly having to go overseas.
'For a number of key skills, we are having to go to Germany and America.'
It is a cruel twist for a firm which is renowed around the world for its expertise, with a company motto: 'Trusted to deliver excellence.'
Among its many achievements, the FTSE 100 firm makes the engines for the A380, the world's biggest passenger plane.
In an article, written for this newspaper last year, Sir John spoke of his worries not just for Rolls-Royce, but the whole of the British manufacturing industry.
More than seven million people used to work in manufacturing in this country in the 1970s, but this number has collapsed to just 3.3 million. He wrote: 'As a society, we are hugely reliant on a skills base that we have taken for granted over many generations.
'But these skills could effectively disappear in our own lifetime.'
Last year, for example, more people did A-levels in media studies than physics.
Since 1990, the Institute of Physics said yesterday the number of people taking physics A-level has fallen nearly 40 per cent from 45,334 to 28,119.
Of the 183 graduates recruited by Rolls-Royce, three quarters have either an engineering or a science degree. About 10 per cent are business studies graduates.
His remarks come in the same week that the British Chambers of Commerce warned that British firms are increasingly favouring foreign workers.
Director-general David Frost said bosses tell him that Polish workers and other Eastern Europeans are their number one choice for many jobs.
These workers have 'higher-level skills and a far better attitude to work than local people.'
Most of them are 'enthusiastic' and 'committed', compared to their British equivalents who are low-skilled and lazy.
Less than half of school-leavers get five GCSEs at grade A to C, including English and maths. It is predicted that China and India will soon be producing an extraordinary five million graduates every year, including 600,000 in science and engineering.
Half of the country's leading employers say they will struggle to fill graduate vacancies this year despite soaring numbers of students leaving university.
The survey, from the Association of Graduate Recruiters, said bosses complain some have difficulty holding a proper conversation, struggle to make decisions and are not motivated.
Nearly 60 per cent of the 222 firms in the survey, including giants such as Microsoft and Unilever, did not expect to receive sufficient applications from graduates with the correct skills.
Rolls-Royce was born in 1906 when Henry Royce met Charles Rolls and the pair decided to create the eponymous firm to build 'the best car in the world.'
In 1971, the company was divided into two - the cars are now made by the German giant BMW and Rolls-Royce plc is the FTSE 100 manufacturing firm.
Rolls Royce boss despairs at lack of British engineering talent
By MANFREDA CAVAZZA and BECKY BARROW, Daily Mail
22:00pm 27th July 2006
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/liv...n_page_id=1770
Britain's most presitigious manufacturing firm has admitted that it is being forced to look overseas for talented graduates.
The boss of Rolls-Royce - a byword for excellence around the world - warned of the skills crisis in this country.
The company is already getting about a quarter of its annual intake of graduates from overseas, mainly America and Germany.
But Sir John Rose, 53, chief executive, said this will rise as British graduates favour soft subjects, such as media studies and hospitality.
He said: 'There is no doubt that there are some skills where we are increasingly having to go overseas.
'For a number of key skills, we are having to go to Germany and America.'
It is a cruel twist for a firm which is renowed around the world for its expertise, with a company motto: 'Trusted to deliver excellence.'
Among its many achievements, the FTSE 100 firm makes the engines for the A380, the world's biggest passenger plane.
In an article, written for this newspaper last year, Sir John spoke of his worries not just for Rolls-Royce, but the whole of the British manufacturing industry.
More than seven million people used to work in manufacturing in this country in the 1970s, but this number has collapsed to just 3.3 million. He wrote: 'As a society, we are hugely reliant on a skills base that we have taken for granted over many generations.
'But these skills could effectively disappear in our own lifetime.'
Last year, for example, more people did A-levels in media studies than physics.
Since 1990, the Institute of Physics said yesterday the number of people taking physics A-level has fallen nearly 40 per cent from 45,334 to 28,119.
Of the 183 graduates recruited by Rolls-Royce, three quarters have either an engineering or a science degree. About 10 per cent are business studies graduates.
His remarks come in the same week that the British Chambers of Commerce warned that British firms are increasingly favouring foreign workers.
Director-general David Frost said bosses tell him that Polish workers and other Eastern Europeans are their number one choice for many jobs.
These workers have 'higher-level skills and a far better attitude to work than local people.'
Most of them are 'enthusiastic' and 'committed', compared to their British equivalents who are low-skilled and lazy.
Less than half of school-leavers get five GCSEs at grade A to C, including English and maths. It is predicted that China and India will soon be producing an extraordinary five million graduates every year, including 600,000 in science and engineering.
Half of the country's leading employers say they will struggle to fill graduate vacancies this year despite soaring numbers of students leaving university.
The survey, from the Association of Graduate Recruiters, said bosses complain some have difficulty holding a proper conversation, struggle to make decisions and are not motivated.
Nearly 60 per cent of the 222 firms in the survey, including giants such as Microsoft and Unilever, did not expect to receive sufficient applications from graduates with the correct skills.
Rolls-Royce was born in 1906 when Henry Royce met Charles Rolls and the pair decided to create the eponymous firm to build 'the best car in the world.'
In 1971, the company was divided into two - the cars are now made by the German giant BMW and Rolls-Royce plc is the FTSE 100 manufacturing firm.
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 394
Likes: 0
From: USA
"Less than half of school-leavers get five GCSEs at grade A to C, including English and maths. It is predicted that China and India will soon be producing an extraordinary five million graduates every year, including 600,000 in science and engineering."
From recent stories in The Economist and other places I gather the 5M graduates and 600,000 in science and engineering include any warm bod that has signed up for a course and been popped out the other end, even if it is only a 80 hour fam, not near GCSE A or even C.
Bet the managers also like the E. European folks to work for less dosh too.
From recent stories in The Economist and other places I gather the 5M graduates and 600,000 in science and engineering include any warm bod that has signed up for a course and been popped out the other end, even if it is only a 80 hour fam, not near GCSE A or even C.
Bet the managers also like the E. European folks to work for less dosh too.
Riding the Euro Gravy Plane
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 455
Likes: 0
From: Strasbourg
Socio-Economic Groups
Guys and girls,
I wouldn't be too upset as Socio-economic groups don't really have any meaning on how well respected any particular profession may be. In this case it's a government study which means that some idiot wrote a cheque for 10 million pounds to one of the many companies which specialise in producing such studies for consumer companies and advertisers. Said company would then have taken a study already done for someone else and changed the line 'dear mr CEO of moulinex food mixers' to 'dear mr whitehall mandarin' while also promoting govt. officals from group 8 to group 1.
Grouping is normally done on a points basis like 'do you own a video recorder ?' if yes then +6 points, so if you own 3 video recorders, 4 tvs, a dishwasher and a food mixer you'll be in a fairly high group. Trying to class whole professions is clearly futile and normally pointless. For example, makers of high end sunglasses clearly know that people in aviation will pay €250 for a pair of sunglasses in the same way that people who make stethoscopes know, if they want to stay in business, that their most likely customers are the medical profession.
Just to illustrate the point take "catering manager" from group one in the study. This is the manager of your local McDonalds or Burger King. Working in McDonalds is probably a hard job but cannot be compared to being the Commander of Boeing 747 responsible for the lives of 400 people. Maybe catering managers buy a lot of video recorders....
The other thing which makes this study b*llocks is there's no differential between different types of pilots, apparently you are just "pilots" Though a 25 year old Flt Lt flying tornadoes in the RAF is actually in group one though because he's also a military officer. Clearly it's rubbish...
So to conclude guys.... if you want to be in a higher group get down to your local electrical store and buy a few VCRs, dishwashers and foodmixers
I wouldn't be too upset as Socio-economic groups don't really have any meaning on how well respected any particular profession may be. In this case it's a government study which means that some idiot wrote a cheque for 10 million pounds to one of the many companies which specialise in producing such studies for consumer companies and advertisers. Said company would then have taken a study already done for someone else and changed the line 'dear mr CEO of moulinex food mixers' to 'dear mr whitehall mandarin' while also promoting govt. officals from group 8 to group 1.
Grouping is normally done on a points basis like 'do you own a video recorder ?' if yes then +6 points, so if you own 3 video recorders, 4 tvs, a dishwasher and a food mixer you'll be in a fairly high group. Trying to class whole professions is clearly futile and normally pointless. For example, makers of high end sunglasses clearly know that people in aviation will pay €250 for a pair of sunglasses in the same way that people who make stethoscopes know, if they want to stay in business, that their most likely customers are the medical profession.
Just to illustrate the point take "catering manager" from group one in the study. This is the manager of your local McDonalds or Burger King. Working in McDonalds is probably a hard job but cannot be compared to being the Commander of Boeing 747 responsible for the lives of 400 people. Maybe catering managers buy a lot of video recorders....
The other thing which makes this study b*llocks is there's no differential between different types of pilots, apparently you are just "pilots" Though a 25 year old Flt Lt flying tornadoes in the RAF is actually in group one though because he's also a military officer. Clearly it's rubbish...
So to conclude guys.... if you want to be in a higher group get down to your local electrical store and buy a few VCRs, dishwashers and foodmixers
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 29
Likes: 0
From: in my dreams
Originally Posted by SXB
Working in McDonalds is probably a hard job but cannot be compared to being the Commander of Boeing 747 responsible for the lives of 400 people.
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 150
Likes: 0
From: A GOOD PLACE TO FLY, DRINK, **** AND SLEEP.
Personally I don't care!
Because I know I'm superior to all those other idiots anyway! Can't get excited by people who don't understand our profession but still try to bracket us anyway. The numpties would think differently if they had to take ATPL exams or before producing that junk pile of a list I'm sure.
Psychophysiological entity
Joined: Jun 2001
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 3,383
Likes: 169
From: Walton on the Naze Essex.
There are a lot of ‘graduates' stacking shelves in Texas. But then, they will always be in work because there are more and more and more and more businesses starting, selling self-gratification.
I remember an article coming out in the Log or some such in the early 60s. ‘And pilots will soon be considered to be of no more standing than carriage drivers.'
And waddayaknow...we let it happen.
I remember an article coming out in the Log or some such in the early 60s. ‘And pilots will soon be considered to be of no more standing than carriage drivers.'
And waddayaknow...we let it happen.
Psychophysiological entity
Joined: Jun 2001
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 3,383
Likes: 169
From: Walton on the Naze Essex.
Mmm..just noticed that I missed the point in my post above, that the quote was taken from a time when aviation was in its infancy.
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 150
Likes: 0
From: A GOOD PLACE TO FLY, DRINK, **** AND SLEEP.
I've done my time stacking shelves. It sucked. So I damn well made sure i was gonna get somewhere in this civil aviation game. I'm proud of what I've achieved...........So no pen pushing peasant numpty is gonna underate what it takes to become a pilot in a cut-throat dog-eat dog industry..... Ever. Be proud chaps and don't let the bastards grind you down.
If you're still stacking shelves, but have the ambition to plant your butt in a fast slippy seat, you should still count yourself as better than the numpties!
Godspeed good chaps.
If you're still stacking shelves, but have the ambition to plant your butt in a fast slippy seat, you should still count yourself as better than the numpties!
Godspeed good chaps.
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 26
Likes: 0
From: UK
I think they had the right idea in "The Hitchhikers's guide to the Galaxy" - when the earth was supposedly doomed, they launched a spacecraft containing an "advance party" of hairdressers, personnel officers, management consultants and telephone sanitisers to go and colonise a new planet .......
If I remember rightly, the rest of mankind back on Earth was then wiped out a few years later, by a virus contracted from a dirty telephone ........
If I remember rightly, the rest of mankind back on Earth was then wiped out a few years later, by a virus contracted from a dirty telephone ........
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 74
Likes: 0
Originally Posted by metabolix
Just a bit of fun
I really don't think anyone is taking it seriously
I really don't think anyone is taking it seriously
You should be:
The National Statistics Socio-economic Classification Analytic Classes
1 Higher managerial and professional occupations
1.1 Large employers and higher managerial occupations
1.2 Higher professional occupations
2 Lower managerial and professional occupations
3 Intermediate occupations
4 Small employers and own account workers
5 Lower supervisory and technical occupations
6 Semi-routine occupations
7 Routine occupations
8 Never worked and long-term unemployed
Would it be reasonable to assume the long term aim of government is to create more groups 1, 1.1 & 1.2 within government; to work out how to tax groups 2, 3, 4 & 5 more. Groups 6 & 7 will mainly consist of immigrants who have no vote, don’t vote, or can’t read the form. Those formerly in group 6 & 7 will expand group 8.
Once groups 1, 1.1, 1.2 & 8 equals more than 50% of the voting population, you can never vote government out, or only vote for an opposition with very similar policies.
