Planes on ground, and pilots with no Jobs???
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Planes on ground, and pilots with no Jobs???
Not really a discussion more of a statement.
Title says it all
Confussed, because I am
Good luck to all pilots out there
Title says it all
Confussed, because I am
Good luck to all pilots out there
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So are you advocating flying them unprofitably?
If your statement read yields rising and fleets falling in size, it might make sense, but a decision to fly is not made upon labour provided, but only whether profit can be earned with the labour provided.
Pilots with no jobs just make the going market rate for the job decline. It doesn't affect the oil price or revenue earning side.
If your statement read yields rising and fleets falling in size, it might make sense, but a decision to fly is not made upon labour provided, but only whether profit can be earned with the labour provided.
Pilots with no jobs just make the going market rate for the job decline. It doesn't affect the oil price or revenue earning side.
Last edited by Re-Heat; 25th Apr 2006 at 09:25.
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Re Heat,
I admire your learned comments on the current job market but despite your incredibly extensive knowledge on the subject I think you've missed the point.
From what I've seen, some of the problems seem to revolve around lack of sim slots (for sim checks and training). It appears to me that many airlines are keen to recruit plenty of new pilots but simply cannot accomodate the large intake that they require. Be patient, Things are improving.
Re-Heat, Please don't make harsh judgements on people's instrument flying ability. Im sure you appreciate the financial and personal dedication that is is required for the IR and after all that, the heartache involved in trying to get a job. We should be supporting each other, not trying to belittle each other's perceived abilities. After all, it was just a statement.
I admire your learned comments on the current job market but despite your incredibly extensive knowledge on the subject I think you've missed the point.
From what I've seen, some of the problems seem to revolve around lack of sim slots (for sim checks and training). It appears to me that many airlines are keen to recruit plenty of new pilots but simply cannot accomodate the large intake that they require. Be patient, Things are improving.
Re-Heat, Please don't make harsh judgements on people's instrument flying ability. Im sure you appreciate the financial and personal dedication that is is required for the IR and after all that, the heartache involved in trying to get a job. We should be supporting each other, not trying to belittle each other's perceived abilities. After all, it was just a statement.
Last edited by topper3; 25th Apr 2006 at 01:13.
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Re-Heat - that was rather unnecessary old chap. The poster made a valid point for discussion. There are plenty of brand new aeroplanes out there that could do with crews but that can't be achieved due to training issues.
And if you're going to point out someone's bad grammar by quoting them and completely unneccessarily inserting "sic", best check your own is ok - especially if the "offender" may not have English as a first language.
And if you're going to point out someone's bad grammar by quoting them and completely unneccessarily inserting "sic", best check your own is ok - especially if the "offender" may not have English as a first language.
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Point taken, but I made no judgement on anyone's flying ability - just noting that currency is required.
A lack of training capacity and experienced pilots is the alternative answer depending upon how the statement is viewed - or depending upon the question the reply above.
A lack of training capacity and experienced pilots is the alternative answer depending upon how the statement is viewed - or depending upon the question the reply above.
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An airline manager friend told me that there are 7 new Ryanair 737NGs sat at Prestwick not being used because Ryanair hasn't got enough crews to operate them. Is this true? If not then its another false rumour but if it is true then it is a positive indication for all my fellow pilots who are still looking for work and who live in hope at confirmation of a pilot shortage.
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Originally Posted by fly-half
An airline manager friend told me that there are 7 new Ryanair 737NGs sat at Prestwick not being used because Ryanair hasn't got enough crews to operate them. Is this true? If not then its another false rumour but if it is true then it is a positive indication for all my fellow pilots who are still looking for work and who live in hope at confirmation of a pilot shortage.
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I agree that airlines need to reduce there costs in order to provide a service to passengers, without having to increase the cost of flights, but what does cost have to do with requiring F/O's to have 500Hrs Multi Crew before they can even apply.
To me it seems that this is where the problem lies. There are many pilots out there with good hours, having worked Air Taxi or other commercial operations. some even willing to Self Sponsor their TR, but yet can not get their foot in the door due to All their flight time being on Single Pilot Aircraft.
Ryanair is not the only outfit that I have heard Rumours of flights been cancelled and aircraft been stuck on the ground due to the lack of flight crew.
To me it seems that this is where the problem lies. There are many pilots out there with good hours, having worked Air Taxi or other commercial operations. some even willing to Self Sponsor their TR, but yet can not get their foot in the door due to All their flight time being on Single Pilot Aircraft.
Ryanair is not the only outfit that I have heard Rumours of flights been cancelled and aircraft been stuck on the ground due to the lack of flight crew.
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That is what I mean in my second reply above - you cannot staff new aircraft entirely with new cadets, or even people with hundreds of hours but no jet experience. The shortage does not lie at the lower levels, as there is always a requirement for experienced pilots to fly with those new recruits, both legally and from an insurance perspective - rather that even at the salaries being paid for DECs, those people are not attracted to move at the salary offered.
There is never going to be a requirement to look long term and invest in cadets where there are so many of us who are prepared to fund ourselves to attain that goal - but even the richest cannot fund experience of a thousand hours required to fill the hole that does exist - even new hires ex-RAF are not of the experience in multi-crew environments to fulfil that role.
I do believe that DECs can even get Ryanair to pay for TRs these days? Correct me if I am wrong.
There is never going to be a requirement to look long term and invest in cadets where there are so many of us who are prepared to fund ourselves to attain that goal - but even the richest cannot fund experience of a thousand hours required to fill the hole that does exist - even new hires ex-RAF are not of the experience in multi-crew environments to fulfil that role.
I do believe that DECs can even get Ryanair to pay for TRs these days? Correct me if I am wrong.
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Re-Heat,
I think what David is saying is that the shortage is not just with Captains but also with what the airlines view as “experienced FO’s” (I’ve heard this too). Now, looking at their minimum requirements (mostly around the 500 hours mark) one can come to the conclusion that in their (the Airline’s) view, experience is equal to 500 hours on type. The difference between a 250 hour low hours guy and a 500 hour guy is only a type rating and 250 hours of line flying/training. This difference (of a TR and 250 hours) many low hours guys are to willing to bridge by paying for a type rating and working for next to nothing for 250 hours. They are willing to be bonded for a certain number of years. All the airlines are required to do is offer the guy/gal a job based on them obtaining their TR within a set time and to a certain standard. After this would come the appropriate sim assessment and if they are happy with the person they accept them and line train them for a certain number of hours. (Now this is were I could be displaying my ignorance….So I’ll ask what might appear to be an obvious question to some… In order to do line flying/training are you required to fly with a Line Training Captain?) If there are issues with regards to licensing/insurance then the appropriate bodies need to be lobbied given the current climate. Who keeps who in business here!
The question is why do airlines prefer to see their aircraft sitting on the ground and cancel flights due to a shortage of experienced FO’s when it takes less than 3 months for extremely motivated guys to get their TR and then a further 3 months for them to gain 250 hours?
Also you say, because there is a vast amount of people who want to be pilots at the lower level of the scale, airlines do not need to invest in any cadet programs and they do not need to take on low hours recently graduated fATPL’s. However, please explain the situation we are currently in then. Why are airlines suffering from a shortage of experienced pilots (FO’s and Captain’s)? The reason as I see it is because somewhere along this journey of ‘Wannabe Pilot’ to ‘Airline Pilot’ is a restriction (a convergent duct if you like!) that prevents wannabe’s from reaching the levels required by the airlines. This comes about because of lack of opportunities at the lower levels, the sort of opportunities that would allow a pilot to otherwise progress steadily to the experience levels required by Airlines. It also comes about because of the Single Crew/Multi Crew debacle and because the sort of aircraft types the people in JAA-JAA land think fall under certain operating categories are either no longer used or treated like the plague by airlines and operators alike.
As always I’m willing to be corrected by the more experienced.
Thanks
I think what David is saying is that the shortage is not just with Captains but also with what the airlines view as “experienced FO’s” (I’ve heard this too). Now, looking at their minimum requirements (mostly around the 500 hours mark) one can come to the conclusion that in their (the Airline’s) view, experience is equal to 500 hours on type. The difference between a 250 hour low hours guy and a 500 hour guy is only a type rating and 250 hours of line flying/training. This difference (of a TR and 250 hours) many low hours guys are to willing to bridge by paying for a type rating and working for next to nothing for 250 hours. They are willing to be bonded for a certain number of years. All the airlines are required to do is offer the guy/gal a job based on them obtaining their TR within a set time and to a certain standard. After this would come the appropriate sim assessment and if they are happy with the person they accept them and line train them for a certain number of hours. (Now this is were I could be displaying my ignorance….So I’ll ask what might appear to be an obvious question to some… In order to do line flying/training are you required to fly with a Line Training Captain?) If there are issues with regards to licensing/insurance then the appropriate bodies need to be lobbied given the current climate. Who keeps who in business here!
The question is why do airlines prefer to see their aircraft sitting on the ground and cancel flights due to a shortage of experienced FO’s when it takes less than 3 months for extremely motivated guys to get their TR and then a further 3 months for them to gain 250 hours?
Also you say, because there is a vast amount of people who want to be pilots at the lower level of the scale, airlines do not need to invest in any cadet programs and they do not need to take on low hours recently graduated fATPL’s. However, please explain the situation we are currently in then. Why are airlines suffering from a shortage of experienced pilots (FO’s and Captain’s)? The reason as I see it is because somewhere along this journey of ‘Wannabe Pilot’ to ‘Airline Pilot’ is a restriction (a convergent duct if you like!) that prevents wannabe’s from reaching the levels required by the airlines. This comes about because of lack of opportunities at the lower levels, the sort of opportunities that would allow a pilot to otherwise progress steadily to the experience levels required by Airlines. It also comes about because of the Single Crew/Multi Crew debacle and because the sort of aircraft types the people in JAA-JAA land think fall under certain operating categories are either no longer used or treated like the plague by airlines and operators alike.
As always I’m willing to be corrected by the more experienced.
Thanks
Last edited by Superpilot; 26th Apr 2006 at 10:32.
PPRuNe Handmaiden
Superpilot, what Reheat is saying is that the CAA (or whoever) will not allow a significant number of low houred pilots into the company. You must have a certain percentage of experienced FOs and Captains before they will allow more low houred pilots in.
The company must maintain a certain ratio between the low houred guys and the experienced guys.
The company must maintain a certain ratio between the low houred guys and the experienced guys.
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It is rather the lack of training captains that is causing a back log, and as far as I am aware the last time I was at PIK there were no FR 737NG's sitting parked up, at least I never saw any of them.
