'Jumpseating' for crews
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 451
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
...but have a plan B
I've done it with IB many times...however, a friendly note of caution...its not an official policy as in the US...completely up to whether the skipper allows it on the day. Madrid flight ops management have apparently been actively discouraging the practice and it has become more difficult than it used to be. I've found that flights through BCN and the other outstations are more relaxed. There is no paperwork associated with the IB procedure...usually just get to the gate and then ask the Captain. (Exceptions that I know of: In MAD report to the flt ops briefing desk to find the crew. In LHR report to the dispatch office located immediately behind the IB ticketing counter to receive a manual boarding card). I have usually been treated royally...including a day when I was desperate to get to work and the only seat left was a spare FA jumpseat...given to me with a smile and J class catering to balance on my knee! You will probably get some more feedback from the guys if you ask in the Spanish Forum.
PG
PG
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: all over the place
Age: 43
Posts: 77
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi, there is a nice tradition in Spain going on about this, although its just a non regulated tradition which depends on the captains good will, and most are willing to give you a ride because they´ll need the favour back some day. The problem is that depending on your company policies, you might not be allowed to do this yourself, so the captain might think that since you don´t carry crew around on you flights, its not very fair on him to take responsability for your transport, and you will probably end up grounded. In fact some people have been sacked for this practice and therefore it gets harder by the day.
I would encourage you to try to implement this tradition on your own airlines, and that way all our lives would be much easier... i´ll keep dreaming, and in the mean time try and no to ask for many favours until I can correspond!
I would encourage you to try to implement this tradition on your own airlines, and that way all our lives would be much easier... i´ll keep dreaming, and in the mean time try and no to ask for many favours until I can correspond!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 40
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Cipri
Hi, there is a nice tradition in Spain going on about this, although its just a non regulated tradition which depends on the captains good will, and most are willing to give you a ride because they´ll need the favour back some day. The problem is that depending on your company policies, you might not be allowed to do this yourself, so the captain might think that since you don´t carry crew around on you flights, its not very fair on him to take responsability for your transport, and you will probably end up grounded. In fact some people have been sacked for this practice and therefore it gets harder by the day.
I would encourage you to try to implement this tradition on your own airlines, and that way all our lives would be much easier... i´ll keep dreaming, and in the mean time try and no to ask for many favours until I can correspond!
I would encourage you to try to implement this tradition on your own airlines, and that way all our lives would be much easier... i´ll keep dreaming, and in the mean time try and no to ask for many favours until I can correspond!
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: In a far better place
Posts: 2,480
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by DOJETDRIVER
If it was up to me, any pilot who works for an airline should be able to ride on any other airline regardless of country. I'm glad that the Spanish extend this courtesy. However, I think it's all the other European airlines who are resistant and not US airlines. The US TSA maybe, but not the airlines.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 40
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by captjns
Its not TSA it is the airlines. They don't want to be faced with fines for an improper crewmember trying to enter the US. US pilots can't jump seat to the US from Europe do stringent TSA requirements under APIS, unless it is on their own carrier.
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: btw SAMAR and TOSPA
Posts: 566
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This is the law
JAR–OPS 1.100 Admission to flight deck
(a) An operator must ensure that no person,
other than a flight crew member assigned to a
flight, is admitted to, or carried in, the flight deck
unless that person is:
(1) An operating crew member;
(2) A representative of the Authority
responsible for certification, licensing or
inspection if this is required for the performance
of his official duties; or
(3) Permitted by, and carried in
accordance with instructions contained in the
Operations Manual.
(b) The commander shall ensure that:
(1) In the interests of safety, admission to
the flight deck does not cause distraction and/or
interfere with the flight’s operation; and
(2) All persons carried on the flight deck
are made familiar with the relevant safety
procedures.
(c) The final decision regarding the admission
to the flight deck shall be the responsibility of the
commander.
In our national legislation para (c) was not adopted.
For non-crew member flight deck jum pseats the current procedure requires the AOM to be supplemented by a instructional procedure according JAR 1.100 (a)(3), which then needs to be authorized bythe national authority. In our case it was neither tried to add such a procedure nor would the national authority authorize it.
(a) An operator must ensure that no person,
other than a flight crew member assigned to a
flight, is admitted to, or carried in, the flight deck
unless that person is:
(1) An operating crew member;
(2) A representative of the Authority
responsible for certification, licensing or
inspection if this is required for the performance
of his official duties; or
(3) Permitted by, and carried in
accordance with instructions contained in the
Operations Manual.
(b) The commander shall ensure that:
(1) In the interests of safety, admission to
the flight deck does not cause distraction and/or
interfere with the flight’s operation; and
(2) All persons carried on the flight deck
are made familiar with the relevant safety
procedures.
(c) The final decision regarding the admission
to the flight deck shall be the responsibility of the
commander.
In our national legislation para (c) was not adopted.
For non-crew member flight deck jum pseats the current procedure requires the AOM to be supplemented by a instructional procedure according JAR 1.100 (a)(3), which then needs to be authorized bythe national authority. In our case it was neither tried to add such a procedure nor would the national authority authorize it.
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: MAN
Posts: 58
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The main problem here is that while the spanish crew take each other, they get irritated with people taken advantage of this privelege. They have worked trough the years to retain it.
At Ryanair, for instance, you can travel free if you are wearing your Ryanair uniform. This proves that the JAA regulation do allow taking extracrews. But, if you want your airline to do it you have to raise the issue.
Pilot Associations do ask their members what sort of issues would they like them to bring up at a board meeting. It is up to you to mention it. I know from my own experience that many of you guys love that perk. It does no cost the company anything at all. Hence, if your reps see that they are not getting anything from the board, they could try to get this.
Once again, is up to you guys. If you don't squeak you don't get oil.
At Ryanair, for instance, you can travel free if you are wearing your Ryanair uniform. This proves that the JAA regulation do allow taking extracrews. But, if you want your airline to do it you have to raise the issue.
Pilot Associations do ask their members what sort of issues would they like them to bring up at a board meeting. It is up to you to mention it. I know from my own experience that many of you guys love that perk. It does no cost the company anything at all. Hence, if your reps see that they are not getting anything from the board, they could try to get this.
Once again, is up to you guys. If you don't squeak you don't get oil.
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: North of CDG
Posts: 1,043
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It always amazes me that the national aviation authorities (and the international ones, too - re. the JAA) are stuck in the middle ages in this respect. It's quite simply a case of security gone mad and having a potentially very negative impact on flight safety. Surely, three trained brains (and three pairs of eyes) on the flight deck are better than two, specially if an emergency happens. It's all about CRM (remember Sioux City?), pure and simple.
Good to see that in some countries at least, that decision to is still up to the operating captain.
Cheers
Good to see that in some countries at least, that decision to is still up to the operating captain.
Cheers
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: all over the place
Age: 43
Posts: 77
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by threemiles
JAR–OPS 1.100 Admission to flight deck
(a) An operator must ensure that no person,
other than a flight crew member assigned to a
flight, is admitted to, or carried in, the flight deck
unless that person is:
(1) An operating crew member;
(2) A representative of the Authority
responsible for certification, licensing or
inspection if this is required for the performance
of his official duties; or
(3) Permitted by, and carried in
accordance with instructions contained in the
Operations Manual.
(b) The commander shall ensure that:
(1) In the interests of safety, admission to
the flight deck does not cause distraction and/or
interfere with the flight’s operation; and
(2) All persons carried on the flight deck
are made familiar with the relevant safety
procedures.
(c) The final decision regarding the admission
to the flight deck shall be the responsibility of the
commander.
In our national legislation para (c) was not adopted.
For non-crew member flight deck jum pseats the current procedure requires the AOM to be supplemented by a instructional procedure according JAR 1.100 (a)(3), which then needs to be authorized bythe national authority. In our case it was neither tried to add such a procedure nor would the national authority authorize it.
(a) An operator must ensure that no person,
other than a flight crew member assigned to a
flight, is admitted to, or carried in, the flight deck
unless that person is:
(1) An operating crew member;
(2) A representative of the Authority
responsible for certification, licensing or
inspection if this is required for the performance
of his official duties; or
(3) Permitted by, and carried in
accordance with instructions contained in the
Operations Manual.
(b) The commander shall ensure that:
(1) In the interests of safety, admission to
the flight deck does not cause distraction and/or
interfere with the flight’s operation; and
(2) All persons carried on the flight deck
are made familiar with the relevant safety
procedures.
(c) The final decision regarding the admission
to the flight deck shall be the responsibility of the
commander.
In our national legislation para (c) was not adopted.
For non-crew member flight deck jum pseats the current procedure requires the AOM to be supplemented by a instructional procedure according JAR 1.100 (a)(3), which then needs to be authorized bythe national authority. In our case it was neither tried to add such a procedure nor would the national authority authorize it.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: in the hills
Age: 68
Posts: 358
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Last I knew it is illegal to carry anyone other than operating crew on the flight deck in UK airspace, this includes foreign carriers, unless there are no other seats available. i.e. if there are any spare pax or crew seats in the back it is illegal to carry jumpseaters on flight deck.
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Asia
Posts: 106
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Unless that person is ....
(3) Permitted by, and carried in accordance with instructions contained in the
Operations Manual.
(3) Permitted by, and carried in accordance with instructions contained in the
Operations Manual.
The reality is that managers of airlines travel on staff ticket with reservation even when in holiday so they have no interest in the matter, and it is easier to forbid it than face any remote possible litigation.
A few months ago, I traveled with my wife on jump-seats (both in flight deck) with a major European airline!
Well done guys, many, many thanks.
In my actual airline, it is forbidden to take a company captain, qualified on type, in the cockpit unless authorized by an ‘underling’ from the scheduling.
This is for safety reason, wraf, wraf…
Now, one is a major reputable airline, the other an operation runs by guys that think they have heard someone who has a friend that know something about aviation, guess who is who
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Surrounding the localizer
Posts: 2,200
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
1 Post
Last I knew it is illegal to carry anyone other than operating crew on the flight deck in UK airspace, this includes foreign carriers, unless there are no other seats available. i.e. if there are any spare pax or crew seats in the back it is illegal to carry jumpseaters on flight deck
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Nearest Bombardier AMO
Posts: 417
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Dojetdriver,
Spanair certainly does!
Landed late at a Spanish airport less than 2 weeks ago, too late for me to make the flight booked out of there for me by our dispatchers. My Spanish colleague got on the horn to the flight I was meant to catch just as they were asking for clearance (we had just parked), got them to 'go numbers', had a quick chin-wag with them and next thing one of our engineers ran me over to them in his pick-up within minutes. I was last to board - obviously in uniform - the captain checked my licence and crew I.D., jotted down my licence-number and that was it. The girls parked me in business and I was home in no time!
To those Spanish pilots reading this: I was dumbstruck by the hospitality you guys afford other crew, and am impressed that you manage to keep such a tradition of friendliness alive even to this overly-hysterical day. I take my hat off to you.
Spanair certainly does!
Landed late at a Spanish airport less than 2 weeks ago, too late for me to make the flight booked out of there for me by our dispatchers. My Spanish colleague got on the horn to the flight I was meant to catch just as they were asking for clearance (we had just parked), got them to 'go numbers', had a quick chin-wag with them and next thing one of our engineers ran me over to them in his pick-up within minutes. I was last to board - obviously in uniform - the captain checked my licence and crew I.D., jotted down my licence-number and that was it. The girls parked me in business and I was home in no time!
To those Spanish pilots reading this: I was dumbstruck by the hospitality you guys afford other crew, and am impressed that you manage to keep such a tradition of friendliness alive even to this overly-hysterical day. I take my hat off to you.