GB Pay Negotiations
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[QUOTE=Major Cleve Saville] Think how much money the company would save if office staff were productive for 55 hours a week.
Same old dialogue, you forget the 190 hours in 4 weeks, standbys at home, contactables etc etc.
And Miss inform - you presumably read all the posts about Pilots jumping out of Emirates / they only just got their Feb rosters etc. I suspect that quiet a few would trade positions and join GB given the choice.
No win
Same old dialogue, you forget the 190 hours in 4 weeks, standbys at home, contactables etc etc.
And Miss inform - you presumably read all the posts about Pilots jumping out of Emirates / they only just got their Feb rosters etc. I suspect that quiet a few would trade positions and join GB given the choice.
No win
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[QUOTE=Mr Angry from Purley]
O.K think how much money the company would save if all the office staff did 47 1/2 hours a week (no coffee or lunch breaks): happy now? Never let it be said I lack balance.
If you are management can we all take it standbys are time off then? Because I believe that is what you are saying.
No allowance made for the long days or constantly disrupted shift patterns either. I suggest we all agree to work office hours 9-5, every weekend off; More than happy to! Or the typical 3 on 3 off shift pattern the other shift workers get. I am up for that as well!!
Same old dialogue: Life is unbearable here but count yourself lucky life is more unbearable in Emirates, Ryanair, Easyjet blah blah (not just for the quiet few!) etc etc.
Yes life is worse elsewhere, pilots are leaving other airlines and other airlines have aircraft on the ground as a result: Is this your plan too? Is this the model you aspire too?
Mr Angry you must be management because you have difficulty seeing that if pilots are unhappy, perceive the grass is greener elsewhere (even if it is not), and leave, and as a consequence you cannot run your business it is a slight difficulty re: the plan (assuming you had one).
Emirates pilots are more than welcome to apply. How many pilots have joined from Emirates mmmm, let me see, would that be zero?
How many have left for Emirates? At least 3 in the last two years. I make that 3-0 to Emirates. Just what is your point? Emirates pilots would love to join GB 'given the choice' but don't due to an invisible force that prevents them? Maybe they have just not been won over by the quiet Irish charm of the Ops. Director.
Originally Posted by Major Cleve Saville
Think how much money the company would save if office staff were productive for 55 hours a week.
Same old dialogue, you forget the 190 hours in 4 weeks, standbys at home, contactables etc etc.
And Miss inform - you presumably read all the posts about Pilots jumping out of Emirates / they only just got their Feb rosters etc. I suspect that quiet a few would trade positions and join GB given the choice.
No win
Same old dialogue, you forget the 190 hours in 4 weeks, standbys at home, contactables etc etc.
And Miss inform - you presumably read all the posts about Pilots jumping out of Emirates / they only just got their Feb rosters etc. I suspect that quiet a few would trade positions and join GB given the choice.
No win
If you are management can we all take it standbys are time off then? Because I believe that is what you are saying.
No allowance made for the long days or constantly disrupted shift patterns either. I suggest we all agree to work office hours 9-5, every weekend off; More than happy to! Or the typical 3 on 3 off shift pattern the other shift workers get. I am up for that as well!!
Same old dialogue: Life is unbearable here but count yourself lucky life is more unbearable in Emirates, Ryanair, Easyjet blah blah (not just for the quiet few!) etc etc.
Yes life is worse elsewhere, pilots are leaving other airlines and other airlines have aircraft on the ground as a result: Is this your plan too? Is this the model you aspire too?
Mr Angry you must be management because you have difficulty seeing that if pilots are unhappy, perceive the grass is greener elsewhere (even if it is not), and leave, and as a consequence you cannot run your business it is a slight difficulty re: the plan (assuming you had one).
Emirates pilots are more than welcome to apply. How many pilots have joined from Emirates mmmm, let me see, would that be zero?
How many have left for Emirates? At least 3 in the last two years. I make that 3-0 to Emirates. Just what is your point? Emirates pilots would love to join GB 'given the choice' but don't due to an invisible force that prevents them? Maybe they have just not been won over by the quiet Irish charm of the Ops. Director.
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My view
I’m normally a reader, rather than a write on PPRUNE. However, I thought I’d just say a couple of things. I worked for FLYBE before coming to GB and I do appreciate that things have changed even in my short time with the company, but compared to FLYBE this place is fantastic. I never had roster stability and got called off all my stand-by’s and these could be for ANY base on the network. I’ve spent many a night in Northern Island Billy no mates wondering if this was what I signed up for at flight school. But I kept remaindering myself they gave me my break, so it was not all bad.
Also the people are 99.99% very approachable at GB and that goes for everyone. I do not like these early starts and late finishes more than you, but I also do not think the grass is that much greener next door. With these changing conditions comes choice, but I still would be careful before I jumped!
Good luck to you all – let hope our Balpa CC starts communicating better, since everything is rumour at GB and this is not an ideal way of communication.
Also the people are 99.99% very approachable at GB and that goes for everyone. I do not like these early starts and late finishes more than you, but I also do not think the grass is that much greener next door. With these changing conditions comes choice, but I still would be careful before I jumped!
Good luck to you all – let hope our Balpa CC starts communicating better, since everything is rumour at GB and this is not an ideal way of communication.
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So it's even worse at FLYBE? Well, that makes everything at GB just fine & dandy!
By sheer coincidence, no-one has ever left GB for FLYBE & I doubt that there have been any such movers from any of the tracked airlines. Or Emirates.
Who's the other 0.01%? The FOD?
You are merely confirming what we already know, that the grass is fairly equally brown on all sides of the fence & it currently boils down to which is the least cr@p job you can get! You currently consider that GB is less cr@p than FLYBE. Are you willing to allow GB to become equally cr@p then? At what stage will you say "Enough is enough?"
By sheer coincidence, no-one has ever left GB for FLYBE & I doubt that there have been any such movers from any of the tracked airlines. Or Emirates.
Who's the other 0.01%? The FOD?
You are merely confirming what we already know, that the grass is fairly equally brown on all sides of the fence & it currently boils down to which is the least cr@p job you can get! You currently consider that GB is less cr@p than FLYBE. Are you willing to allow GB to become equally cr@p then? At what stage will you say "Enough is enough?"
Last edited by Miss Inform; 28th Feb 2006 at 09:29.
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Far enough. I was not suggesting anyone would move from GB to FLYBE, but you would be surprised. Say you want to live in the West Country; FLYBE is one of a few options. It's all about choice and being negative only generates negativity. Life is not all about work and I will not be replying again, since I'm not interesting in picking wholes in this that and the other.
Lets not forget regardless what you think of management they are only doing their respective jobs, i.e. it get as much out of the work force for as little monies spent by the airline. Okay I agree the methods may not be agreeable to all, but don't lose sight of the fact that many senior pilots in GB have at one point lost their jobs with other airlines and with mortgages etc its not funny. We should just not lose out on the fact it could be worse.
Lets not forget regardless what you think of management they are only doing their respective jobs, i.e. it get as much out of the work force for as little monies spent by the airline. Okay I agree the methods may not be agreeable to all, but don't lose sight of the fact that many senior pilots in GB have at one point lost their jobs with other airlines and with mortgages etc its not funny. We should just not lose out on the fact it could be worse.
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Had a beer with a GB mate last night and he mentioned this thread so thought i would have a look as several of GB's men (and women) are coming to join us. Lots of valid stuff but also lots of usual Ppruners naive twaddle!! A few years ago GB was the place to be in the short haul business but the new team seem hell bent on eroding any kind of trust and confidence that has been established. There have been many new joiners who are of the opinion that because it's a better place than their last outfit why worry about the possible changes!
Well at the moment the bottom line is that the pilots almost took industrial action a few years ago and tracker was introduced to avoid lengthy discussions and avoid disputes. If tracker says zero you get zero and if it says 5% you are supposed to get 5%, we are all aware of the difficult trading conditions out there and i would suggest that all pilots are behind saving costs and improving efficiencies but the DFO's intransigent attitude is not helping matters. You don't get nothing for nothing, if tracker was agreed tomorrow the union would have no problem discussing other issues.
As my mate sees it this is the DFO trying to show some muscle and if you guys don't stand firm then you will be hammered on every issue in the future, you also need to show the incoming MD that you are a fair and moderate bunch and if that he plays ball with you then you will play ball with him.
The market for Airbus rated guys - especially captains is excellent and from what i am told GB, having recruited so many cadets (who are all good guys), has a real issue with finding F/O's with enough hours to promote. If any more captains resign it will dent the budget a bit to run courses - and this is where companys really lose out, F/O's come and go in search of a better deal but when a guy has a command in a company like GB and starts looking elsewhere, particularly back in the RHS, it must set off alarm bells in the managers office - musn't it??
Anyway there we go the result of a few beers!!
Well at the moment the bottom line is that the pilots almost took industrial action a few years ago and tracker was introduced to avoid lengthy discussions and avoid disputes. If tracker says zero you get zero and if it says 5% you are supposed to get 5%, we are all aware of the difficult trading conditions out there and i would suggest that all pilots are behind saving costs and improving efficiencies but the DFO's intransigent attitude is not helping matters. You don't get nothing for nothing, if tracker was agreed tomorrow the union would have no problem discussing other issues.
As my mate sees it this is the DFO trying to show some muscle and if you guys don't stand firm then you will be hammered on every issue in the future, you also need to show the incoming MD that you are a fair and moderate bunch and if that he plays ball with you then you will play ball with him.
The market for Airbus rated guys - especially captains is excellent and from what i am told GB, having recruited so many cadets (who are all good guys), has a real issue with finding F/O's with enough hours to promote. If any more captains resign it will dent the budget a bit to run courses - and this is where companys really lose out, F/O's come and go in search of a better deal but when a guy has a command in a company like GB and starts looking elsewhere, particularly back in the RHS, it must set off alarm bells in the managers office - musn't it??
Anyway there we go the result of a few beers!!
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Hey R3Hard, You mention:
Would that be Sir Dickie's flying club ? If so, see ya there soon 
Had a beer with a GB mate last night and he mentioned this thread so thought i would have a look as several of GB's men (and women) are coming to join us
Last edited by Greenfinch; 28th Feb 2006 at 17:47.
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Major
SORRY MAJOR.. I just get narked when you blame all your woes on Rostering + Crewing (or Missinfo did anyway).
At the end of the day its the CAA that set the rules and whilst we all probably agree we need 55 hrs in a week to survive, if the 4 weekly total was less than 190 (say 160) then this would solve most of your gripes in one foul swoop. Unfortunately with EU Sub Part Q (EU FTL) nearly upon us, its likely its only gonna get worse.
SORRY MAJOR.. I just get narked when you blame all your woes on Rostering + Crewing (or Missinfo did anyway).
At the end of the day its the CAA that set the rules and whilst we all probably agree we need 55 hrs in a week to survive, if the 4 weekly total was less than 190 (say 160) then this would solve most of your gripes in one foul swoop. Unfortunately with EU Sub Part Q (EU FTL) nearly upon us, its likely its only gonna get worse.
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Here we go again - "It's legal!"
(So it must be okay.)
You seem to forget that the limits laid down are absolute limits, for very occasional use only & are not hourly/daily/weekly/monthly/annual targets, although this is how they are now treated by the company & administered by the rostering + crewing departments...
(So it must be okay.)
You seem to forget that the limits laid down are absolute limits, for very occasional use only & are not hourly/daily/weekly/monthly/annual targets, although this is how they are now treated by the company & administered by the rostering + crewing departments...
Last edited by Miss Inform; 28th Feb 2006 at 22:37.
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STOP THE PRESS............
In the latest twist, a memo released today by DFO reads "please rest assured that the tracker salary increase will be implemented wef 1st April 2006"
However, the same paragraph also states "we most certainly dont expect something for nothing"
Is it a case of giving with one hand, only to take it away with the other?!?!
However, the same paragraph also states "we most certainly dont expect something for nothing"
Is it a case of giving with one hand, only to take it away with the other?!?!
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When is a pay rise not a pay rise?
Sound like my pay rise a couple of years ago under the mainline pay restructuring. A 10% pay rise coupled with an increase in hours from 700 to 770 per year.
Once your work/life balance is eroded it seem as if no-one is interested in clawing it back again.
I wish you all the best.
Once your work/life balance is eroded it seem as if no-one is interested in clawing it back again.
I wish you all the best.
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As one very well-disposed towards GB, I have followed this thread with great interest. I am aware of the current concern in the camp regarding pay and conditions, but many of its pilots (certainly those writing here!) seem to have an unrealistic grasp of the situation that GB finds itself in. The truth is this has been an extremely difficult year for the company - and it is not likely to get any easier in the foreseeable future. GB is having to fight the juggernauts of both easyJet and Ryanair head-on, while at the same time trying to appeal to loyal BA customers. Nearly every route GB operates is under attack - only today easyJet announced direct flights to Marrakech from Gatwick starting in July for example. That will inevitably affect its LHR-RAK service which has always been one of the 'star turns'.
It is very easy to criticise your management but they have to balance the books. As far as I know there was never any suggestion that the tracker would disappear - except by rumour control rather than known facts. What this is really about is the fight to get 900 hours per year from each pilot - the sooner everyone at GB recognises both the inevitability and necessity of such a move the better it will be. Your competition is working significantly harder than you at the moment and that is simply not supportable in the long term. As one who now flies 900 hours, all I can say is that once you have arrived it is not too bad - the hard bit is getting there!
To all the doom-mongers - GB is not dead and buried but it will need to change. They are a great airline with great people but they are fighting against huge odds. The GB 'product' is superb and is totally different to the one that Ryanair or easyJet offers - there will therefore always be a market for what they are offering. The secret is ensuring that in handling the inevitable changes and concessions required from both sides, the BALPA CC obtain the very best deal possible for the pilots. No one should forget that although the 900 hours simply have to come, they are the 'jewel in the crown' of the pilot contract. If your managers' eyes don't water when you tell them what you want for them then you probably asked too little! Best of luck to one and all.
It is very easy to criticise your management but they have to balance the books. As far as I know there was never any suggestion that the tracker would disappear - except by rumour control rather than known facts. What this is really about is the fight to get 900 hours per year from each pilot - the sooner everyone at GB recognises both the inevitability and necessity of such a move the better it will be. Your competition is working significantly harder than you at the moment and that is simply not supportable in the long term. As one who now flies 900 hours, all I can say is that once you have arrived it is not too bad - the hard bit is getting there!
To all the doom-mongers - GB is not dead and buried but it will need to change. They are a great airline with great people but they are fighting against huge odds. The GB 'product' is superb and is totally different to the one that Ryanair or easyJet offers - there will therefore always be a market for what they are offering. The secret is ensuring that in handling the inevitable changes and concessions required from both sides, the BALPA CC obtain the very best deal possible for the pilots. No one should forget that although the 900 hours simply have to come, they are the 'jewel in the crown' of the pilot contract. If your managers' eyes don't water when you tell them what you want for them then you probably asked too little! Best of luck to one and all.
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"No one should forget that although the 900 hours simply have to come........"
, that's completely the wrong thing to be saying !!! You must be a manager's dream.Don't forget, 900 hours is an ABSOLUTE LEGAL LIMIT not a rostering target. It is not just an arbritary figure plucked out of the air by someone at the Belgrano, but a figure arrived at after much scientific research.
From the foreword of CAP371.....
It was recognised in the 1950s that a contributory factor in some aircraft accidents may have been aircrew fatigue. The Bader Report was commissioned and the Flight Time Limitation Board convened, with the object of regulating the hours worked by aircraft crew. Restrictions placed on the number of hours worked, developed over the years, have gone a long way towards ensuring that crew are sufficiently rested prior to commencing a flying duty period.
I am about to leave GB for a Co. that has a 750 hour agreement. From recent conversations I've had with colleagues on the line, if 900 hours is introduced at GB many more will be following me.
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Greenfinch: Well said! I think I know who you are & where you are going - good luck mate, I'm sure you've made a good decision! Notwithstanding today's communique from Party Political HQ, (Still nothing from the CC: do they actually exist?) I'm sure you are correct about others following...
NSF must be going down really well at easyJet, they are truly lucky to have him...
NSF must be going down really well at easyJet, they are truly lucky to have him...
Last edited by Miss Inform; 1st Mar 2006 at 23:09.
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Yes the CC does exist, otherwise there would have been an increase in hours in return for your Tracker pay rise this year. The GB CC has been going through huge change over the last 12 months and has only recently achieved a stable condition, with four out of five of its membership being new to the job. Despite this, and to the surprise of the management, they have proved remarkably resilient in their dealings with the company.
Whilst I agree totally that communication with the membership has to improve, not everything can improve straightaway. The recently concluded and successful pay talks have taken the majority of it’s time and resources. The next big challenge will be the upcoming productivity talks, and during this communication with the members will be essential. Constructive comments on the GB Forum are always welcome, cheap shots on Pprune are not.
Whilst I agree totally that communication with the membership has to improve, not everything can improve straightaway. The recently concluded and successful pay talks have taken the majority of it’s time and resources. The next big challenge will be the upcoming productivity talks, and during this communication with the members will be essential. Constructive comments on the GB Forum are always welcome, cheap shots on Pprune are not.
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I can only point you in the direction of a relatively new captain who, as an FO, was particularly vociferous and forthright on the Forum. Although certain management tried to intimidate him, it would appear that his contributions didn’t hinder his career progression. He is also able to say he stood up and was counted.
In my experience a well thought out and constructive post, which doesn’t resort to primary school insults, can only add to the debate. It may even be helpful to the management in working out the mood of their employees.
In my experience a well thought out and constructive post, which doesn’t resort to primary school insults, can only add to the debate. It may even be helpful to the management in working out the mood of their employees.