Swiss European Air Lines - Pheonix or Funeral
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Re: Swiss European Air Lines - Pheonix or Funeral
It really is a shame what happened to swiss civil aviation:
10/15 years ago swissair was one of, if not the most prestigious airline and was called "the flying bank". long tradition, super product. wow.
then their former management and chairmen chose the wrong strategy and bought all those unwealthy companys and got bancrupt.
**** happens and it did happen big time.
that is a story not easy but manageable to digest...
but: they got a second chance to rebuilt an airline on the shoulders of crossair, AFTER sept 11th, AND with over 2000 million euros from the governement. at the time, swiss was the best capitalized airline in the world and could have bought british airways or lufthansa in cash or the major shares of air france.
but with this lousy management and the unfortunately too big power of aeropers ( pilot ass. of former swissair ) they just started way too big with 26 longhaul aircraft for such a tiny country and everything went down the drain again!
i am convinced: if the former boss of crossair, not an easy man but one who knew what he was doing, stayed in power, today swiss would be again a profit making company to look up to.
the recipe was easy: take the jewel crossair, reenforce it with the "fillet part" of former swissair ( 12 longhaul, 20 midhaul and former crx - 10 acft), fly the profit making and not only the prestigious routes and unite the 2 pilot corps once and forever. dont sell the fuel hedge but sell the embraer 170 options for over 250 million euros instead of paying a penalty for delaying and then cancelling the ordered ones. et voila ;-)
but those managers, claiming responsability just fill their pockets and never have to work again in their lives.
it is a shame what happened!
10/15 years ago swissair was one of, if not the most prestigious airline and was called "the flying bank". long tradition, super product. wow.
then their former management and chairmen chose the wrong strategy and bought all those unwealthy companys and got bancrupt.
**** happens and it did happen big time.
that is a story not easy but manageable to digest...
but: they got a second chance to rebuilt an airline on the shoulders of crossair, AFTER sept 11th, AND with over 2000 million euros from the governement. at the time, swiss was the best capitalized airline in the world and could have bought british airways or lufthansa in cash or the major shares of air france.
but with this lousy management and the unfortunately too big power of aeropers ( pilot ass. of former swissair ) they just started way too big with 26 longhaul aircraft for such a tiny country and everything went down the drain again!
i am convinced: if the former boss of crossair, not an easy man but one who knew what he was doing, stayed in power, today swiss would be again a profit making company to look up to.
the recipe was easy: take the jewel crossair, reenforce it with the "fillet part" of former swissair ( 12 longhaul, 20 midhaul and former crx - 10 acft), fly the profit making and not only the prestigious routes and unite the 2 pilot corps once and forever. dont sell the fuel hedge but sell the embraer 170 options for over 250 million euros instead of paying a penalty for delaying and then cancelling the ordered ones. et voila ;-)
but those managers, claiming responsability just fill their pockets and never have to work again in their lives.
it is a shame what happened!
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Re: Swiss European Air Lines - Pheonix or Funeral
So what we have here is an industry (parts of) on the ground and shattered to bits with little hope of recovery and two pilot corps STILL pissing on each others legs!!
Hilarious!
I wonder when we will see the new Swisshansa colors?
On the by by, Kanger: Gut getextet, sehr gut! You make me proud buddy!
Let me double Spuds comments:
ZUM KOTZEN!! OBER ECHT EH!!!
Hilarious!
I wonder when we will see the new Swisshansa colors?
On the by by, Kanger: Gut getextet, sehr gut! You make me proud buddy!
Let me double Spuds comments:
ZUM KOTZEN!! OBER ECHT EH!!!
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Re: Swiss European Air Lines - Pheonix or Funeral
Originally Posted by gofer
As Dani says:
CRX are used to little money - Dosé's salary was around 200K as MD and that new ex Lusthansa & ex Blindebahn chaps is over 800K.
Justice is a thing of the past I fear.
CRX are used to little money - Dosé's salary was around 200K as MD and that new ex Lusthansa & ex Blindebahn chaps is over 800K.
Justice is a thing of the past I fear.
Did he deserve it.............?
Still remember the cowbells during the oneworldparty?
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Re: Swiss European Air Lines - Pheonix or Funeral
IMHO they should have terminated his employment contract with the standard 3 months notice. Rewarding incompetence/deliberately playing along as a marionette for the money should never be rewarded.
The irony continues though. He is now an executive board member of the Basel city tram corporation. Having allowed the BSL hub to be destroyed with the economic consequences for the north west Switz. region/France/Germany and then being given such a position seem to me to be totally incompatible.
Kanger
The irony continues though. He is now an executive board member of the Basel city tram corporation. Having allowed the BSL hub to be destroyed with the economic consequences for the north west Switz. region/France/Germany and then being given such a position seem to me to be totally incompatible.
Kanger
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Re: Swiss European Air Lines - Pheonix or Funeral
Surprised? You always needed to be a crook to be nicely rewarded in Basle.
Just look at the likes of Ospel, Vasella, Suter and now Dosé.
Just look at the likes of Ospel, Vasella, Suter and now Dosé.
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Re: Swiss European Air Lines - Pheonix or Funeral
Sorry to tell you Gretchenfrage, but I have hardly ever seen such a unqualified post, mixing completely different topics and people...
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Re: Swiss European Air Lines - Pheonix or Funeral
Dear Voeni.
History will tell and the topic was ... ? Right - Phoenix or Funeral.
Now: Ospel will have his nice award in the forthcoming film, about how he cooperated with his buddy Suter to throw Swissair into the turmoil.
Vasella, with his company Novartis, might have given a certain amount to the start-up Swiss, but they almost instantly wrote off the investment. Needless to point out what signal a move like this sends to share + stakeholders.
Finally i hope i do not have to repeat all the goodies Dosé has done to sustain this start-up, do i?
So in the end, it's not that much mixing topics and people i presume!! My sole sarcastic note was that all these dealings and findings somewhat point to a common origin, namely Basle.
Sorry for touching a nerve.
GF
History will tell and the topic was ... ? Right - Phoenix or Funeral.
Now: Ospel will have his nice award in the forthcoming film, about how he cooperated with his buddy Suter to throw Swissair into the turmoil.
Vasella, with his company Novartis, might have given a certain amount to the start-up Swiss, but they almost instantly wrote off the investment. Needless to point out what signal a move like this sends to share + stakeholders.
Finally i hope i do not have to repeat all the goodies Dosé has done to sustain this start-up, do i?
So in the end, it's not that much mixing topics and people i presume!! My sole sarcastic note was that all these dealings and findings somewhat point to a common origin, namely Basle.
Sorry for touching a nerve.
GF
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Re: Swiss European Air Lines - Pheonix or Funeral
Is there still someone here around who believes that Ospel's and Suter's move wouldn't have saved the airline industry in Switzerland, saved about 2.5 billions of CHF and a lot of faces in politics?
OK, some would have had to pay for it, that is Aeropers, and... - anyone else? They can keep a few more years in their seats now, but not more.
OK, some would have had to pay for it, that is Aeropers, and... - anyone else? They can keep a few more years in their seats now, but not more.
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Re: Swiss European Air Lines - Pheonix or Funeral
Quote:
"Is there still someone here around who believes that Ospel's and Suter's move wouldn't have saved the airline industry in Switzerland"
Answer:
Yes, me. It definetely wouldn't have saved anything.
So what exactly did you want to say with your statement, Dani, as we seem to agree that these two gentlemen wouldn't save anything of Switzerlands airline industry?????
"Is there still someone here around who believes that Ospel's and Suter's move wouldn't have saved the airline industry in Switzerland"
Answer:
Yes, me. It definetely wouldn't have saved anything.
So what exactly did you want to say with your statement, Dani, as we seem to agree that these two gentlemen wouldn't save anything of Switzerlands airline industry?????
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Re: Swiss European Air Lines - Pheonix or Funeral
Of course suter would have saved this airline!! one might like suter or not, but he 100% could not have done it worse, that is for sure.
he would have started with a reasonable longrange fleet of maybe 10 aircraft and shortened all those goodies of the golden boys ( aeropers, who invented the aviation business...)
because crossair was a jewel and almost always made black figures. then add the "fillet part of ex swissair" ( yes, this existed...), not sell the fuel hedge but take on the embraer 170 and their options, which could have been sold for about 250 million euros...
fly the routes that bring money and not just prestige...
and unite the two pilot corps.
the formula for success was in fact easy. with 2500 million euros...? COMMON...
he would have started with a reasonable longrange fleet of maybe 10 aircraft and shortened all those goodies of the golden boys ( aeropers, who invented the aviation business...)
because crossair was a jewel and almost always made black figures. then add the "fillet part of ex swissair" ( yes, this existed...), not sell the fuel hedge but take on the embraer 170 and their options, which could have been sold for about 250 million euros...
fly the routes that bring money and not just prestige...
and unite the two pilot corps.
the formula for success was in fact easy. with 2500 million euros...? COMMON...
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Re: Swiss European Air Lines - Pheonix or Funeral
CAPTAINNIC:
Just for the record of the mighty Suter's jewel: Crossair went almost bancrupt twice (you could read this in it's business reports) and was bought out by Swissair. Even days before the buy-out of Crossair from the SAir-Group, it gladly took 10 millions from SAir it was unable to bring up itself, to pay Embraer. These are uniterpreted facts.
Sure enough Suter would have done better with Swiss than Dosé! But if he would have started with the 10 LH aircraft (which seems reasonable), believe me, even he couldn't have sustained 82 regional aircraft. He would have cut this fleet back to the same reasonable third we see today and all his admirers would have called him Judas. The same would have happened with the non-profiteable routes: Basle would have been hit the hardest and the former Suter-statue-builders would have cried wolf!
By the way: You are darn right that the pilot corps should have been united. The most fervent saboteurs to it however were the CCP/SPA, along with their rivals Aeropers. Again a fact that just doesn't make sense to me.
If the Swiss adventure would have been started with only one pilot corps, there would have been a fair chance, for as they would have more easily adapted to the new realities. Having a opponent was very convenient: Neither wanted to change or give up anything, constantly barking that the losses and problems only originated from the other side.
Unfortunately such a statement only leads to the perpetual "yeah,.... i always said so! The others should have been fired...", but never to the analysis of own mistakes and how to improve the situation.
Swissair AND Crossair went broke. Swiss is about to go down the bins aswell. The only question is, if Franz can avoid this.
GF
Just for the record of the mighty Suter's jewel: Crossair went almost bancrupt twice (you could read this in it's business reports) and was bought out by Swissair. Even days before the buy-out of Crossair from the SAir-Group, it gladly took 10 millions from SAir it was unable to bring up itself, to pay Embraer. These are uniterpreted facts.
Sure enough Suter would have done better with Swiss than Dosé! But if he would have started with the 10 LH aircraft (which seems reasonable), believe me, even he couldn't have sustained 82 regional aircraft. He would have cut this fleet back to the same reasonable third we see today and all his admirers would have called him Judas. The same would have happened with the non-profiteable routes: Basle would have been hit the hardest and the former Suter-statue-builders would have cried wolf!
By the way: You are darn right that the pilot corps should have been united. The most fervent saboteurs to it however were the CCP/SPA, along with their rivals Aeropers. Again a fact that just doesn't make sense to me.
If the Swiss adventure would have been started with only one pilot corps, there would have been a fair chance, for as they would have more easily adapted to the new realities. Having a opponent was very convenient: Neither wanted to change or give up anything, constantly barking that the losses and problems only originated from the other side.
Unfortunately such a statement only leads to the perpetual "yeah,.... i always said so! The others should have been fired...", but never to the analysis of own mistakes and how to improve the situation.
Swissair AND Crossair went broke. Swiss is about to go down the bins aswell. The only question is, if Franz can avoid this.
GF
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Re: Swiss European Air Lines - Pheonix or Funeral
well... fact is that former swissair as such did not do sooo bad and together with crossair it formed a good symbiosis.
so one should think that with a united pilot corps, the downsize of former swissair by about 40% and former crossair by about 25% AND over 2 billion euros!!! this must absolutely be a big success.
because there is a high price market in switzerland, which didnt just vanish from one day to the other. and if both companys ( swissair and crossair) gave up the 30% least profitable routes, make some code share and/or agreements with other airlines on the "mid-profitable routes"...
if this ingredients do not work, then all other airlines would not work...
this is like a penalty in soccer without goal-keeper ;-)
but now it is a disaster to miss a second chance with that amount of start-capital. and the responsible ones, instead of going to jail, they just walk away with their pockets full of money. i am disgusted!
so one should think that with a united pilot corps, the downsize of former swissair by about 40% and former crossair by about 25% AND over 2 billion euros!!! this must absolutely be a big success.
because there is a high price market in switzerland, which didnt just vanish from one day to the other. and if both companys ( swissair and crossair) gave up the 30% least profitable routes, make some code share and/or agreements with other airlines on the "mid-profitable routes"...
if this ingredients do not work, then all other airlines would not work...
this is like a penalty in soccer without goal-keeper ;-)
but now it is a disaster to miss a second chance with that amount of start-capital. and the responsible ones, instead of going to jail, they just walk away with their pockets full of money. i am disgusted!
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Re: Swiss European Air Lines - Pheonix or Funeral
Gretchenfrage, I better call you Mephisto, you are dreeeaming!
Crossair would have survived easily and would have grown to a nice niche company as SN Brussels airline does. And without the 2.5 bn CHF. Of course this would have happened without Aeropers, no single Aeropers pilot would have been hired (maybe with Crossair salary...). Look at Belgium and this gives you all the answers. Sabena did the same error for 40 years and soon Switzerland will find out, because it's the only way.
Basel btw is one of the most growing airports in central Europe and has now more pax capacity flown by a Swiss airline than ever before, the seats per aircraft have trippled!
Of course Crossair would have kept at least 80 aircraft, but grounded all these shiny Airbusses. This is a regional company, like Swiss should be, not a global player, do you still don't get it? I would say even 10 long haul aircraft are off the market. Maybe ok if half of them are ACJs.
Crossair would have survived easily and would have grown to a nice niche company as SN Brussels airline does. And without the 2.5 bn CHF. Of course this would have happened without Aeropers, no single Aeropers pilot would have been hired (maybe with Crossair salary...). Look at Belgium and this gives you all the answers. Sabena did the same error for 40 years and soon Switzerland will find out, because it's the only way.
Basel btw is one of the most growing airports in central Europe and has now more pax capacity flown by a Swiss airline than ever before, the seats per aircraft have trippled!
Of course Crossair would have kept at least 80 aircraft, but grounded all these shiny Airbusses. This is a regional company, like Swiss should be, not a global player, do you still don't get it? I would say even 10 long haul aircraft are off the market. Maybe ok if half of them are ACJs.
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Re: Swiss European Air Lines - Pheonix or Funeral
Originally Posted by Seasprite
I think you forgot to mention the 2.6 mio swiss francs he received as a farewell bonus!? Seems that everyone was eager to make his descision to leave easy. Afterall he quit by himself and still got the money to play golf.
Did he deserve it.............?
Still remember the cowbells during the oneworldparty?
Did he deserve it.............?
Still remember the cowbells during the oneworldparty?
Hoi Dani
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Re: Swiss European Air Lines - Pheonix or Funeral
Thin Albert and Dani.
For goodness sake, grow up! If you think that Swissair pilots (Ex-pilots that is) are responsible for the demise of Swissair, then you are both pretty naive people. Yes there were people in the old Swissair that probably thought they were better than those pilots flying for the old Crossair, but they were most definitely not the majority, who by and large were pretty good guys and like yourselves pretty good operators. Just what did you expect Aeropers to do? Roll over and invite the Crossair pilots to take over all their member's seats in the Swissair aircraft? The whole reason for having a union, is to safeguard its members interests. Looking at your own unions performance since 2002, can you honestly say they have looked after the interests of ALL their pilots? Much easier to blame the bad ol' Aeropers.
Management were solely to blame for the downfall of one of the worlds premier airlines and again, once it was gifted to its once subsidary, Crossair, management under the leadership of Dose, it again was driven into the rocks. You give far too much credence to the power of Aeropers. They did not decide how many aircraft of diifferent types, would fly with what frequency to what destinations in the newly formed Swiss. The aviation world, en masse, is under enormous strain from their respective management to cut costs. lets use a little common sense here instead of being bitter and twisted individuals looking to blame others whose position you perhaps envy?
For goodness sake, grow up! If you think that Swissair pilots (Ex-pilots that is) are responsible for the demise of Swissair, then you are both pretty naive people. Yes there were people in the old Swissair that probably thought they were better than those pilots flying for the old Crossair, but they were most definitely not the majority, who by and large were pretty good guys and like yourselves pretty good operators. Just what did you expect Aeropers to do? Roll over and invite the Crossair pilots to take over all their member's seats in the Swissair aircraft? The whole reason for having a union, is to safeguard its members interests. Looking at your own unions performance since 2002, can you honestly say they have looked after the interests of ALL their pilots? Much easier to blame the bad ol' Aeropers.
Management were solely to blame for the downfall of one of the worlds premier airlines and again, once it was gifted to its once subsidary, Crossair, management under the leadership of Dose, it again was driven into the rocks. You give far too much credence to the power of Aeropers. They did not decide how many aircraft of diifferent types, would fly with what frequency to what destinations in the newly formed Swiss. The aviation world, en masse, is under enormous strain from their respective management to cut costs. lets use a little common sense here instead of being bitter and twisted individuals looking to blame others whose position you perhaps envy?
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Re: Swiss European Air Lines - Pheonix or Funeral
Excellent words, stumpie, every word!
Thin Albert: People like you are the real problem in Swiss aviation, still bashing each other although there's almost nothing anymore to fight about! I'm sick of guys like you, but on the other hand I take pity with you, I'm sure life's no fun with such bitterness in it! Just my opinion... (and I'm not SR!)
Dani: Crossair with 80 aircrafts? C'mon, are you serious? That is ridiculous, it could never have worked out. Even SN Brussels cut its fleet!
And BTW: Basel is growin' fast because of EZY, and solely because of EZY. From an aviation management standpoint, it's far from reality to believe, that an airline like former crossair could stimulate the market as well as EZY does (completely different business plans, customers, priorities)
Thin Albert: People like you are the real problem in Swiss aviation, still bashing each other although there's almost nothing anymore to fight about! I'm sick of guys like you, but on the other hand I take pity with you, I'm sure life's no fun with such bitterness in it! Just my opinion... (and I'm not SR!)
Dani: Crossair with 80 aircrafts? C'mon, are you serious? That is ridiculous, it could never have worked out. Even SN Brussels cut its fleet!
And BTW: Basel is growin' fast because of EZY, and solely because of EZY. From an aviation management standpoint, it's far from reality to believe, that an airline like former crossair could stimulate the market as well as EZY does (completely different business plans, customers, priorities)
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Re: Swiss European Air Lines - Pheonix or Funeral
I agree with a lot of what has been said (EZS isn't LX, cuts would have taken place etc.), but you definetly don't have the big picture if you are saying that Aeropers is "just" a union.
You have to know that the influence of this "enterprise" goes into the highest ranks of politics and enonomy. Together with the complete lack of knowledge of the other side (i.e. the public and the government) and the weekness of former Crossair's management, this was a recipee for a failure. You might also know that Swissair was and Swiss is mainly ruled by (former) Aeropers pilots in middle to top management, and that they are smart enough to sell their ideas. Only problem is that the market can't be overruled, that's why all this misery always backfires. I predict that because of this fact no airline in Switzerland with the participation of Aeropers can ever be successful.
Dani
You have to know that the influence of this "enterprise" goes into the highest ranks of politics and enonomy. Together with the complete lack of knowledge of the other side (i.e. the public and the government) and the weekness of former Crossair's management, this was a recipee for a failure. You might also know that Swissair was and Swiss is mainly ruled by (former) Aeropers pilots in middle to top management, and that they are smart enough to sell their ideas. Only problem is that the market can't be overruled, that's why all this misery always backfires. I predict that because of this fact no airline in Switzerland with the participation of Aeropers can ever be successful.
Dani
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Re: Swiss European Air Lines - Pheonix or Funeral
Dani
At least you come to agree that cuts would have had to be made to LX......
SN has 32 regionals for 10 million inhabitatns, Switzerland with 7 million therefore would be able to sustain some 23 regionals: It was you who said that the market can't be overruled.
What you're saying about Aeropers is only partly true. Yes it's not just a union. But you greatly overestimate their influence, just as they do themselves! This is their greatest weakness. And it's true that some board members joined Swissair and Swiss management, but they turned around just as fast and became bitter ennemies to the union.
The demise of Swiss and it's regional part is a true and involuntary team-work of two very stupid unions and a formar very stupid management.
GF
At least you come to agree that cuts would have had to be made to LX......
SN has 32 regionals for 10 million inhabitatns, Switzerland with 7 million therefore would be able to sustain some 23 regionals: It was you who said that the market can't be overruled.
What you're saying about Aeropers is only partly true. Yes it's not just a union. But you greatly overestimate their influence, just as they do themselves! This is their greatest weakness. And it's true that some board members joined Swissair and Swiss management, but they turned around just as fast and became bitter ennemies to the union.
The demise of Swiss and it's regional part is a true and involuntary team-work of two very stupid unions and a formar very stupid management.
GF
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Re: Swiss European Air Lines - Pheonix or Funeral
Gretchen
A good marketing model, but without some key thinking - BRU was/is an international intercontinental hub and the other Belgian Airports are close enough to BRU to be land fed. In CH BSL never was intercontinental, GVA really isn't since the 90's and ZRH is only partially there - so not only do you have feeder flights into ZRH - but you also have feeder flights out of ZRH, BSL, GVA and LUG and that to multiple intercontinental hubs, CDG, LHR, BRU, AMS, FRA, MUC, CPH and even Rome. In addition you have adjacent catchment areas that you must add to your CH population because the Swiss airports are the closest or geographically easiest. So your catchment area is probaby similar and your traffic is 2 way (which could mean up to double your loads.
Next remember that as an inner European hub you can generate business providing better service than some of the direct flights, or providing connections that don't otherwise exist, or exist but with much worse connections. When BSL focussed on this trade in the late 90's loads went up 10-15% in a few months - and most of that is cream if you did your marketing right to start the route anyway.
Finally the plane sizes play a role. Crossair was operating with smaller bodies so the numbers can go up without the model becoming untrue. Of course post 9/11 no model was easily sustainable in the short term but EZY has proven that many of the ex. Switzerland routes are sustainable withbigger planes but a different twist to prices and market (no connection business - just discount point-to-point). Business has also changed its focus slightly and is now going for cheapest, not most convenient.
Having watched the managements and 2 unions from the wings your last sentence says it all. But for me the saddest statement comes today from the liquidator of Swissair who has moved to the opinion that the company could have been saved !
A good marketing model, but without some key thinking - BRU was/is an international intercontinental hub and the other Belgian Airports are close enough to BRU to be land fed. In CH BSL never was intercontinental, GVA really isn't since the 90's and ZRH is only partially there - so not only do you have feeder flights into ZRH - but you also have feeder flights out of ZRH, BSL, GVA and LUG and that to multiple intercontinental hubs, CDG, LHR, BRU, AMS, FRA, MUC, CPH and even Rome. In addition you have adjacent catchment areas that you must add to your CH population because the Swiss airports are the closest or geographically easiest. So your catchment area is probaby similar and your traffic is 2 way (which could mean up to double your loads.
Next remember that as an inner European hub you can generate business providing better service than some of the direct flights, or providing connections that don't otherwise exist, or exist but with much worse connections. When BSL focussed on this trade in the late 90's loads went up 10-15% in a few months - and most of that is cream if you did your marketing right to start the route anyway.
Finally the plane sizes play a role. Crossair was operating with smaller bodies so the numbers can go up without the model becoming untrue. Of course post 9/11 no model was easily sustainable in the short term but EZY has proven that many of the ex. Switzerland routes are sustainable withbigger planes but a different twist to prices and market (no connection business - just discount point-to-point). Business has also changed its focus slightly and is now going for cheapest, not most convenient.
Having watched the managements and 2 unions from the wings your last sentence says it all. But for me the saddest statement comes today from the liquidator of Swissair who has moved to the opinion that the company could have been saved !