Aer Lingus Recruitment?
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 638
Likes: 0
From: Timbuktu
Fine in theory - except it doesn't explain why relatively senior F/O's in ALT are still walking out on a monthly basis. And besides those who've already walked there are dozens more still thinking seriously about bailing in the near future.
This, in a company which is reputed to be on the verge of major expansion?? Are they CRAZY??!!
The blood letting at ALT isn't over Boy/CFC...so if you think its a good move - go ahead. Out of the kettle and into the fire.
This, in a company which is reputed to be on the verge of major expansion?? Are they CRAZY??!!
The blood letting at ALT isn't over Boy/CFC...so if you think its a good move - go ahead. Out of the kettle and into the fire.
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
From: London
As an ex-cadet I have to say I hold no grudge against EI for what they had to do post Sept 11th.
I think the decision that each of the 47 cadets makes with regard to returning to EI however, will be mainly based on where they are employed at the time and whether the offer from EI is attractive enough.
From the grapvine, there's plenty of expansion planned in the company with the probability of a few more 330's coming online soon and 777's followed by 787's in the future.
I think the decision that each of the 47 cadets makes with regard to returning to EI however, will be mainly based on where they are employed at the time and whether the offer from EI is attractive enough.
From the grapvine, there's plenty of expansion planned in the company with the probability of a few more 330's coming online soon and 777's followed by 787's in the future.
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 638
Likes: 0
From: Timbuktu
You're still speaking in riddles Boy, but if by 'losses' you mean RESIGNATIONS then I can assure you most vehemently - your information is wrong if you've been told nobody is leaving.
Tell your source to go back and check the A321 F/O roster.
Enough of this tittle tattle then - the point remains - why join a company (with a formal seniority system) which others are walking out of? Can't you take a hint?
Tell your source to go back and check the A321 F/O roster.
Enough of this tittle tattle then - the point remains - why join a company (with a formal seniority system) which others are walking out of? Can't you take a hint?
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 64
Likes: 0
From: Europe
Thanks to a conversation with an Aer Lingus source I have twigged where the confusion is coming from. You are referring, I suspect, to a recent publication which details info. about the pilots who took a "voluntary severance" package. If that is what you meant, then you have to accept that this is rather different from the impression created by words such as "pilots leaving on a monthly basis".
BTW I never made claims such as you suggest, I merely expressed surprise at the apparent implications of your posts - which I took to be that things were so bad that people were leaving in droves. Your general tone is repeated by the final sentence of your latest post. You clearly have a "hobby horse" that you want to mount. You're welcome to continue to do so, but I will leave you to go solo.
BTW I never made claims such as you suggest, I merely expressed surprise at the apparent implications of your posts - which I took to be that things were so bad that people were leaving in droves. Your general tone is repeated by the final sentence of your latest post. You clearly have a "hobby horse" that you want to mount. You're welcome to continue to do so, but I will leave you to go solo.
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 638
Likes: 0
From: Timbuktu
My dear Boy! I took you for a man-in-the-know, but as you've just revealed - you are working off second hand (incorrect) hearsay and 'publications'.
I'm not referring to any 'publication' at all! I'm referring to first hand factual knowledge. Mates of mine are among the leavers! Others are among the 'looking for options' group.
Sure they took voluntary severance, and got a wedge of cash. But these are not 50 year olds heading out to pasture. They are youngsters with years to go before retirement, and they'll be looking for work.
The money wasn't the push factor - a hundred grand or so won't last a lifetime, but if they're handing out wedge to leave and it suits you to go, HAPPY DAYS.
They are leaving for other reasons. Primarily the lack of prospects, and the poor treatment they've received at the hands of Aer Lingus management over the last few years.
Frankly, most pilots in ALT (the younger ones at least) wouldn't piss on Aer Lingus management right now if they were on fire.
There is a deep rooted and mutual animosity festering between management and pilots in that company, which will poison it for at least the next generation.
This is the legacy of that hero, Willy Walsh.
Dive in.
I'm not referring to any 'publication' at all! I'm referring to first hand factual knowledge. Mates of mine are among the leavers! Others are among the 'looking for options' group.
Sure they took voluntary severance, and got a wedge of cash. But these are not 50 year olds heading out to pasture. They are youngsters with years to go before retirement, and they'll be looking for work.
The money wasn't the push factor - a hundred grand or so won't last a lifetime, but if they're handing out wedge to leave and it suits you to go, HAPPY DAYS.
They are leaving for other reasons. Primarily the lack of prospects, and the poor treatment they've received at the hands of Aer Lingus management over the last few years.
Frankly, most pilots in ALT (the younger ones at least) wouldn't piss on Aer Lingus management right now if they were on fire.
There is a deep rooted and mutual animosity festering between management and pilots in that company, which will poison it for at least the next generation.
This is the legacy of that hero, Willy Walsh.
Dive in.
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 1,606
Likes: 0
From: UK
And how can you be grateful to an Airline that dumped you on the street.
Fool! (not directed at anyone)
Last edited by Re-Heat; 2nd December 2005 at 20:27.
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 638
Likes: 0
From: Timbuktu
I'm sure that remark wasn't directed at me Re-Heat, so I'll ignore it this time.
As regards market forces, all I'll say is - there's a right and a wrong way to do things. Even the most nasty blows can be softened with a little good will.
It seems the only goodwill extended to these guys was whatever IALPA could negotiate for them....even though they weren't even members at the time.
I remember many years ago meeting an Aer Lingus cadet who gave up a good career in the merchant navy to become a pilot.
Before his training was over the company went into a downturn. They fired him ruthlessly - I won't go into personal details, but believe me, the circumstances were very very sad.
I didn't see him for several years, until one day I was doing a walkaround of my a/c in Dublin.
I bumped right into him before recognising him.
He was loading bags.
He was a baggage handler on the a/c he should've been piloting.
Sick.
As regards market forces, all I'll say is - there's a right and a wrong way to do things. Even the most nasty blows can be softened with a little good will.
It seems the only goodwill extended to these guys was whatever IALPA could negotiate for them....even though they weren't even members at the time.
I remember many years ago meeting an Aer Lingus cadet who gave up a good career in the merchant navy to become a pilot.
Before his training was over the company went into a downturn. They fired him ruthlessly - I won't go into personal details, but believe me, the circumstances were very very sad.
I didn't see him for several years, until one day I was doing a walkaround of my a/c in Dublin.
I bumped right into him before recognising him.
He was loading bags.
He was a baggage handler on the a/c he should've been piloting.
Sick.
Joined: Jan 1997
Posts: 7,736
Likes: 1
From: UK
Signet, mellow, laid back but this sentence may accidently give the wrong impression to readers:
With respect, that wasn't actually your first post here. This from just 8 months ago - many years after the cadets were, err, released:
This presents an entirely different situation to those reading who simply want to fly and not have to look at other careers or education for extended periods. Readers might well wonder how many months or even weeks have you actually flown professionally since writing that post? Reviewing possibly unjustified inference from inaccurate or misleading implication is just so 'typically PPRuNe' and the reason for the big red words at the bottom of the page.
Regards
rob
PS - If your memory needs jogging think back to the 18th March this year. You also posted twice regarding applying for the CTC scheme.
Now I am an ex-cadet one of the 47, happilly employed in this business
I was sponsored through my training back in 2000 and qualified in Nov 2001 but got out of the game so to speak due to the state of the industry at that time.
.....................................
My ratings etc have never been renewed/revalidated since 2001, I know the 5 year rule on retraining so that won't be an issue as my time frame is less than 5 years.
.....................................
My ratings etc have never been renewed/revalidated since 2001, I know the 5 year rule on retraining so that won't be an issue as my time frame is less than 5 years.
Regards
rob
PS - If your memory needs jogging think back to the 18th March this year. You also posted twice regarding applying for the CTC scheme.
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 51
Likes: 0
From: Dublin, IE
@Signet 263
I think you'll find that maxalt is an Aer Lingus pilot (at least that's the impression I've gleaned from his previous posts) and so he probably did get sponsored as a cadet back in the good ol' days!
I have to put my hand up and admit that I too am an ex-cadet and one of the famous '44'. You speak very negatively of the company maxalt. If things are really that bad are you also considering moving on to greener pastures? If not, why not?
If the cadets are ever offered their jobs back there are many who wouldn't return, being happy with their current lot, and probably citing some of the reasons you have given for their decision. Off the top of my head there are at least 3 cadets working with BA longhaul, and then a few with Easyjet, Aer Arann, CityJet, Monarch, GB and others. I'm sure that the BA guy's won't be coming back. Out of my class of 10, I'd say about 6 would be interested in getting back to AL. Those that do wish to get back are under no illusion that the company that hired them in 2000 is dead and gone, and that things are not as rosy as they used to be. However for many, the Dublin base, the aircraft type and the money are just three reasons why many would move from their current flying jobs back to AL.
I think you'll find that maxalt is an Aer Lingus pilot (at least that's the impression I've gleaned from his previous posts) and so he probably did get sponsored as a cadet back in the good ol' days!
I have to put my hand up and admit that I too am an ex-cadet and one of the famous '44'. You speak very negatively of the company maxalt. If things are really that bad are you also considering moving on to greener pastures? If not, why not?
If the cadets are ever offered their jobs back there are many who wouldn't return, being happy with their current lot, and probably citing some of the reasons you have given for their decision. Off the top of my head there are at least 3 cadets working with BA longhaul, and then a few with Easyjet, Aer Arann, CityJet, Monarch, GB and others. I'm sure that the BA guy's won't be coming back. Out of my class of 10, I'd say about 6 would be interested in getting back to AL. Those that do wish to get back are under no illusion that the company that hired them in 2000 is dead and gone, and that things are not as rosy as they used to be. However for many, the Dublin base, the aircraft type and the money are just three reasons why many would move from their current flying jobs back to AL.
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 24
Likes: 0
From: Up there!
Herecomes the bride - As regards your original question regarding possible recruitment. Whilst there has been no talk of pilot recruitment by the company - believe me that is bound to be on the agenda next year.
All the pilots on Europe are being rostered the maximum possible hours permissable. Whilst not reaching the maximum hours, the A330 pilots are also working harder than in previous years.
The company has quite a few problems to sort out before any recruitment can be considered. First and foremost is how the funds are to be made available for any fleet expansion. This is estimated to be in the region of €2 billion.
Next is where the aircraft are going to come from. Besides the debate over the fleet renewal regarding the A350 or B787, the main problem at the moment is that the company can't get any additional A330's at the moment. The company have also indicated further expansion on Europe.
EI is certainly not dead man's shoes! I'll bet my hat on that one. Until an announcement can be made on exact aircraft numbers, no announcement will be made regarding recruitment. But any idiot will be able to tell you that EI has to expand. That expansion in the future will primarily be on the long haul side of things. Which will require substantial pilot numbers. Due to the seniority system those places will eventually be taken by the existing pilots. So any new recruit to EI will end up on the A320. Airbus pilots will be top of the list followed by suitably qualified experienced airline pilots.
I'd imagine that the company would be swamped with applications from ryanair, aer arran and cityjet. Why you ask, because despite the loss of working conditions and increased productivity since 9/11 - EI is now one of the best payers in Europe and has perhaps the best pension scheme around (a final salary scheme in which each pilot pays 7% and the company pays 21%)
Yes, three pilots (junior on the seniority list) recently resigned to go and work elsewhere. Two in the desert and one stateside. Like any company, for some the grass is always greener, especially when there is the lure of long-haul flying! But as regards a potential exodus - don't think so!
IALPA has stated that regarding any future recruitment, any new joiners will be on the same terms and conditions.
Like all companies, there are problems at EI. But slowly and surely these are being sorted out. WW has left and started to swing his axe elsewhere (watch your back nigel!!!), and the new guy at least knows how to deal with people, as oppossed to being very good at firing people!
EI has dramatically changed since 9/11, but at least it survived and is now a profitable airline with a future. Secondly we have a strong union that has the ability to somewhat protect our livelyhood! How many pilots have that luxury nowadays?
All the pilots on Europe are being rostered the maximum possible hours permissable. Whilst not reaching the maximum hours, the A330 pilots are also working harder than in previous years.
The company has quite a few problems to sort out before any recruitment can be considered. First and foremost is how the funds are to be made available for any fleet expansion. This is estimated to be in the region of €2 billion.
Next is where the aircraft are going to come from. Besides the debate over the fleet renewal regarding the A350 or B787, the main problem at the moment is that the company can't get any additional A330's at the moment. The company have also indicated further expansion on Europe.
EI is certainly not dead man's shoes! I'll bet my hat on that one. Until an announcement can be made on exact aircraft numbers, no announcement will be made regarding recruitment. But any idiot will be able to tell you that EI has to expand. That expansion in the future will primarily be on the long haul side of things. Which will require substantial pilot numbers. Due to the seniority system those places will eventually be taken by the existing pilots. So any new recruit to EI will end up on the A320. Airbus pilots will be top of the list followed by suitably qualified experienced airline pilots.
I'd imagine that the company would be swamped with applications from ryanair, aer arran and cityjet. Why you ask, because despite the loss of working conditions and increased productivity since 9/11 - EI is now one of the best payers in Europe and has perhaps the best pension scheme around (a final salary scheme in which each pilot pays 7% and the company pays 21%)
Yes, three pilots (junior on the seniority list) recently resigned to go and work elsewhere. Two in the desert and one stateside. Like any company, for some the grass is always greener, especially when there is the lure of long-haul flying! But as regards a potential exodus - don't think so!
IALPA has stated that regarding any future recruitment, any new joiners will be on the same terms and conditions.
Like all companies, there are problems at EI. But slowly and surely these are being sorted out. WW has left and started to swing his axe elsewhere (watch your back nigel!!!), and the new guy at least knows how to deal with people, as oppossed to being very good at firing people!
EI has dramatically changed since 9/11, but at least it survived and is now a profitable airline with a future. Secondly we have a strong union that has the ability to somewhat protect our livelyhood! How many pilots have that luxury nowadays?
Joined: Jan 1997
Posts: 7,736
Likes: 1
From: UK
Nice try but no cigar.
Each substantive point ducked - whether ignoring Max's background or the query as to how long you've flown professionally since qualifying.
You closed with the word 'discuss' - don't like it then delete your post. You invited comment. Your second post somehow doesn't seem so relaxed or confident.
You conveyed a certain impression in your 1st post. I debunked it after you having invited comment on it. Readers will make up their own minds as to the merits of what we have written.
I like to fly my 2 seat Jodel - it results in no bitterness.
regards again,
rob
Each substantive point ducked - whether ignoring Max's background or the query as to how long you've flown professionally since qualifying.
You closed with the word 'discuss' - don't like it then delete your post. You invited comment. Your second post somehow doesn't seem so relaxed or confident.
You conveyed a certain impression in your 1st post. I debunked it after you having invited comment on it. Readers will make up their own minds as to the merits of what we have written.
I like to fly my 2 seat Jodel - it results in no bitterness.
regards again,
rob
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 638
Likes: 0
From: Timbuktu
Caught bang to rights, eh Signet! What a spoofer.
When you said you were 'one of the 47' I had my doubts right away anyhow - good work by PPRuNe Towers checking you out. Personally I couldn't be arsed. It seems obvious enough to me that anyone who gets fired during training is unlikely to be as grateful as you claimed to be. Are turkeys voting for Xmas now?
Phoenix rising - so I'm an ALT pilot eh? Would you care to back that up with some evidence - there's a serious outbreak of BS on this thread and you're contributing to it.
As it happens I'm nothing - repeat NOTHING - to do with ALT.
Go on, prove otherwise.
I've plenty of mates there though - and I know whats going on from talking to them.
Milehighdriver -
The ALT pension you refer to - do you seriously believe that future joiners will be hired on the same terms? Seriously???
Not a hope mate - the next intake will be Yellow Packs. Self trained/sponsored, on a decreased package, including a 'do-it-yourself' pension scheme. No more company guarentees or defined benefit schemes for them. Hell, as youngsters they won't care anyhow! They won't even realise they've been shafted for at least 10 years!
My mates in ALT won't put up a fight for them - lets face it, when a bunch of shiny new long haul aircraft + Commands are being dangled in front of the incumbents will they kick it to touch over a yellow packers pension? Not a hope. The incumbents know well that the defined scheme is heading for extinction - pull up the ladder time!
Would I leave ALT if I was there? Given my age, if I was already on the seniority list, good bread, long haul command threatening? Nah - I'd stick it out.
But plenty of younger guys are looking at many more years to command and they're running out of patience. The 3 who just left are only the LATEST 3 to leave - there've been 50 or more youngsters resign in the last 3 years, and PLENTY MORE still waiting to go.
You asked for advice/info? Here it is;
I'm glad I'm near retirement - I wouldn't wanna be starting out in this business today, whether with ALT, FR, or anyone else. The whole shebang is screwed forever more. Don't be fooled by the happy clappers on this thread who see the world through rose tinted spectacles.
When you said you were 'one of the 47' I had my doubts right away anyhow - good work by PPRuNe Towers checking you out. Personally I couldn't be arsed. It seems obvious enough to me that anyone who gets fired during training is unlikely to be as grateful as you claimed to be. Are turkeys voting for Xmas now?
Phoenix rising - so I'm an ALT pilot eh? Would you care to back that up with some evidence - there's a serious outbreak of BS on this thread and you're contributing to it.
As it happens I'm nothing - repeat NOTHING - to do with ALT.
Go on, prove otherwise.
I've plenty of mates there though - and I know whats going on from talking to them.
Milehighdriver -
The ALT pension you refer to - do you seriously believe that future joiners will be hired on the same terms? Seriously???
Not a hope mate - the next intake will be Yellow Packs. Self trained/sponsored, on a decreased package, including a 'do-it-yourself' pension scheme. No more company guarentees or defined benefit schemes for them. Hell, as youngsters they won't care anyhow! They won't even realise they've been shafted for at least 10 years!
My mates in ALT won't put up a fight for them - lets face it, when a bunch of shiny new long haul aircraft + Commands are being dangled in front of the incumbents will they kick it to touch over a yellow packers pension? Not a hope. The incumbents know well that the defined scheme is heading for extinction - pull up the ladder time!
Would I leave ALT if I was there? Given my age, if I was already on the seniority list, good bread, long haul command threatening? Nah - I'd stick it out.
But plenty of younger guys are looking at many more years to command and they're running out of patience. The 3 who just left are only the LATEST 3 to leave - there've been 50 or more youngsters resign in the last 3 years, and PLENTY MORE still waiting to go.
You asked for advice/info? Here it is;
I'm glad I'm near retirement - I wouldn't wanna be starting out in this business today, whether with ALT, FR, or anyone else. The whole shebang is screwed forever more. Don't be fooled by the happy clappers on this thread who see the world through rose tinted spectacles.
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 51
Likes: 0
From: Dublin, IE
Phoenix rising - so I'm an ALT pilot eh? Would you care to back that up with some evidence - there's a serious outbreak of BS on this thread and you're contributing to it.
As it happens I'm nothing - repeat NOTHING - to do with ALT.
Go on, prove otherwise.
As it happens I'm nothing - repeat NOTHING - to do with ALT.
Go on, prove otherwise.
I don't have any ambition to prove who you do or do not work for. I couldn't care less. You gave me the impression you were working for ALT from the conviction in your posts on this thread. Sorry if I offended you.
So you, like 'Boy', are also working off second hand knowledge then? Excuse me if I take any facts you post with a pinch of salt then.
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 638
Likes: 0
From: Timbuktu
You can take it any way you like mate!
I was down the pub last night with one of my ALT mates (cadet trained by ALT btw!).
His mobile phone rang and it was his crewing department asking him if he would come in on a day off (next day) to help them out.
He gave them a rather curt negative response I thought (but then I'm just a big old softy).
WW is gone, but not forgotten in ALT. And even though the new guy might try to patch up relations - he has a helluva job on his hands.
Whats the future for ALT if the pilots would rather **** on the company than dig them out of a tight corner now and again?
I'm no lacky, but I find it amusing when I see the COMMITTMENT the lads in ALT have to sticking it to their employer. Its not like they don't get paid well for coming in for the day - but most would seemingly rather burn the 500 euro than get out of bed for the management.
This is the company thats all 'on the up'?
I was down the pub last night with one of my ALT mates (cadet trained by ALT btw!).
His mobile phone rang and it was his crewing department asking him if he would come in on a day off (next day) to help them out.
He gave them a rather curt negative response I thought (but then I'm just a big old softy).
WW is gone, but not forgotten in ALT. And even though the new guy might try to patch up relations - he has a helluva job on his hands.
Whats the future for ALT if the pilots would rather **** on the company than dig them out of a tight corner now and again?
I'm no lacky, but I find it amusing when I see the COMMITTMENT the lads in ALT have to sticking it to their employer. Its not like they don't get paid well for coming in for the day - but most would seemingly rather burn the 500 euro than get out of bed for the management.
This is the company thats all 'on the up'?
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 181
Likes: 0
From: Cartoon strip
Good heavens, am I the only pprune reader who was under the impression (from maxalt's many 100's of contributions over the years) that maxalt was a long haul pilot with Aer Lingus? Can we assume maxalt is:
- a pilot?
- long haul?
- Irish?
- based in Dublin?
- but which airline? (not too many choices based on the last 4)
Or is he just mates with some pilots? Confused, you will be....
Just curious.
- a pilot?
- long haul?
- Irish?
- based in Dublin?
- but which airline? (not too many choices based on the last 4)
Or is he just mates with some pilots? Confused, you will be....
Just curious.
