Racial Discrimination
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Re: Racial Discrimination
Many people here refer to being employed by a major airline/operator. Whilst it is good news that in those companies racial boundaries apparently do not exist anymore (in any case regarding the hiring process), I am not so sure if the same would apply to smaller companies, freight companies and corporate aviation. In other words, to those companies that are not so much in the sportlight.
Some of the most bigoted pilots I have come across worked for small operators or in freight. I do not expect myself to make me popular by saying that, but it's my experience. (On an aside, perhaps this mindset is the reason too that these sort of people get stuck in these smaller companies, unable to move on).
Some of the most bigoted pilots I have come across worked for small operators or in freight. I do not expect myself to make me popular by saying that, but it's my experience. (On an aside, perhaps this mindset is the reason too that these sort of people get stuck in these smaller companies, unable to move on).
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Re: Racial Discrimination
Pelican: I agree with what you are saying to an extent as that is also my experience. There are however different ways of dealing with it. I was in the RAF for many years and in the early years racism was common place simply because the arrival of a black navigator, oriental pilot etc was something of a novelty. In the best tradition of the armed services there was merciless banter and I look back on some of the jokes that were made with considerable embarrassment and awkwardness. Nonetheless we have moved on and I would be staggered if some of the shameful things I heard would happen now.
Similarly when I went to a UK freight operator on my first commercial job I can remember my fleet manager, who knew I had some friends who were black, asking me, "Did you see your nigger friends over the weekend?" The odd thing is that he would not have seen what he was saying as offensive. He, and others, would make countless comments of that nature. I took the view then, as I do now, that the best way of dealing with that is to let it pass. I would often discuss with him his views and we agreed to disagree but I saw no merit in calling the police or making some huge deal about it. The truth is that this particular individual would now be hounded out of his job but I have never felt comfortable with that approach. What is interesting about him is that although he held very extreme views, he was actually a very fair man and would never, for example, have failed someone because they were black or not recruited them in the first place. Such a statement seems contradictory but that is the way it was. This guy had worked in Africa for many years and consequently held very entrenched views. The way you win over such people is not to vilify them but to have rational discussion on the issue. I understand that some people need a bit of a rant every now and again and frankly I have no problem listening to anyone's point of view even if it is totally contradictory to my own. People have very strong views on issues like immigration and so on but because they do does not mean that every Asian, black, oriental or whoever will be actively discriminated against.
If we are honest, we in the UK have been on a journey and we are not fully there yet. My own experience is that Britain is one of the most fair countries around - in stark contrast to what is common place in the Middle East, Far East or Africa. Does that mean that we never have problems with racism? Of course not. It does mean there is a huge willingness to offer fair deals to anyone based on their ability to do their job and not on the colour of their skin. As virtually every contributor here has said, racism is by and large only an issue if you choose to make it one. I live and work among every race and creed and it is a great experience. No one really cares what you are - they do care if you bleat and whine all the time. Be the best you can be, show tolerance and respect to those around you even if you not naturally agree with them and you will go far. That does not mean you sell out on the things which are important to you - it does mean that you are not abusive or unpleasant.
Similarly when I went to a UK freight operator on my first commercial job I can remember my fleet manager, who knew I had some friends who were black, asking me, "Did you see your nigger friends over the weekend?" The odd thing is that he would not have seen what he was saying as offensive. He, and others, would make countless comments of that nature. I took the view then, as I do now, that the best way of dealing with that is to let it pass. I would often discuss with him his views and we agreed to disagree but I saw no merit in calling the police or making some huge deal about it. The truth is that this particular individual would now be hounded out of his job but I have never felt comfortable with that approach. What is interesting about him is that although he held very extreme views, he was actually a very fair man and would never, for example, have failed someone because they were black or not recruited them in the first place. Such a statement seems contradictory but that is the way it was. This guy had worked in Africa for many years and consequently held very entrenched views. The way you win over such people is not to vilify them but to have rational discussion on the issue. I understand that some people need a bit of a rant every now and again and frankly I have no problem listening to anyone's point of view even if it is totally contradictory to my own. People have very strong views on issues like immigration and so on but because they do does not mean that every Asian, black, oriental or whoever will be actively discriminated against.
If we are honest, we in the UK have been on a journey and we are not fully there yet. My own experience is that Britain is one of the most fair countries around - in stark contrast to what is common place in the Middle East, Far East or Africa. Does that mean that we never have problems with racism? Of course not. It does mean there is a huge willingness to offer fair deals to anyone based on their ability to do their job and not on the colour of their skin. As virtually every contributor here has said, racism is by and large only an issue if you choose to make it one. I live and work among every race and creed and it is a great experience. No one really cares what you are - they do care if you bleat and whine all the time. Be the best you can be, show tolerance and respect to those around you even if you not naturally agree with them and you will go far. That does not mean you sell out on the things which are important to you - it does mean that you are not abusive or unpleasant.
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Re: Racial Discrimination
Very interesting last two posts.
Hi Salapilot.
Apparently this is a very touchy issue for you, but I would tend to agree with CWS on the grounds of public appearance. To the passengers, a pilot should remain an anonymous individual strictly dedicated to his duties. I guess this is also what the uniform is for: it makes us look the same, no matter who we are individually. So I personally believe any willingly visible sign of cultural origin, religion, or other belief is out of place on the flightdeck.
And as far as your management is concerned, they don't have any other choice than showing respect. Simply because in a "major", doing otherwise would arise an endless legal battle...
Cheers, TTF.
Originally Posted by salapilot
try and be as civil as i can about the reply from CWS...........basically he's talking a load of B******s !....
Quote:
stick to your religion but get rid of the turban while on duty/work in any european airline.
What a contradiction of terms ! I wear a Turban and work for a "major" European Carrier and have never expereienced any problems with all my colleagues, including management who have had nothing but respect for me and my faith.
sp
Quote:
stick to your religion but get rid of the turban while on duty/work in any european airline.
What a contradiction of terms ! I wear a Turban and work for a "major" European Carrier and have never expereienced any problems with all my colleagues, including management who have had nothing but respect for me and my faith.
sp
Apparently this is a very touchy issue for you, but I would tend to agree with CWS on the grounds of public appearance. To the passengers, a pilot should remain an anonymous individual strictly dedicated to his duties. I guess this is also what the uniform is for: it makes us look the same, no matter who we are individually. So I personally believe any willingly visible sign of cultural origin, religion, or other belief is out of place on the flightdeck.
And as far as your management is concerned, they don't have any other choice than showing respect. Simply because in a "major", doing otherwise would arise an endless legal battle...
Cheers, TTF.
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Re: Racial Discrimination
Hi TTF
Interesting post, which leaves me with a very simple question........who's definition of "anonymous individual” are you using ?
You appear to take the color blind approach, which means treating all people the same, which in turn inevitably means treating everyone as "white middle class". Wake up and look around you. We live in a multi cultural society, which includes people of all religious denominations. To say the flight deck should be reserved for a certain "type" of person, stinks of discrimination.
As far as my management not having any other choice but to respect me, is a load of twaddle. Quite simply if they had no choice, why would they have taken me on in the first place ???
Thanks
Sp
Interesting post, which leaves me with a very simple question........who's definition of "anonymous individual” are you using ?
You appear to take the color blind approach, which means treating all people the same, which in turn inevitably means treating everyone as "white middle class". Wake up and look around you. We live in a multi cultural society, which includes people of all religious denominations. To say the flight deck should be reserved for a certain "type" of person, stinks of discrimination.
As far as my management not having any other choice but to respect me, is a load of twaddle. Quite simply if they had no choice, why would they have taken me on in the first place ???
Thanks
Sp
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Re: Racial Discrimination
Originally Posted by salapilot
You appear to take the color blind approach, which inevitably means treating everyone as "white middle class". (...) To say the flight deck should be reserved for a certain "type" of person, stinks of discrimination.
Anyway, I talked about WILLINGLY VISIBLE signs, not physical appearance. Whether people have black or white skin, blond or brown hair, green or blue eyes, etc... is not the question at all. Nobody should care about that, we all said it.
What I meant is: WILLINGLY VISIBLE signs (i.e. that you decide to make visible to fellow crewmembers & pax) of your religion, cultural background or other beliefs are out of place -- even if you are white and catholic for that matter! Get it?
Now, you are very passionate about the issue and obviously this discussion is going to go round and round, so let's leave it at that.
Cheers,
-- TTF.
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Re: Racial Discrimination
a pilot should remain an anonymous individual...
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Re: Racial Discrimination
Right. So you detail to them your religion, your political party affiliation, the village you come from and the pilot union you belong to. That is more like what they want, I am sure.
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Re: Racial Discrimination
My first thought would be: don't worry about it, but then I'm a white guy...
I had a problem with some bloke who accused me of it though, but it turned out he'd cried wolf too often...to cut a long story short my lawyer savaged him in the following defamation matter and it all ended happily for me but it has made me think...
I guess we need to learn to live with each other.
I had a problem with some bloke who accused me of it though, but it turned out he'd cried wolf too often...to cut a long story short my lawyer savaged him in the following defamation matter and it all ended happily for me but it has made me think...
I guess we need to learn to live with each other.
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Re: Racial Discrimination
Hit the nail on the head Brian. The learning to live together has always been the problem. Until such time we can appreciate other cultures, religion, race etc, then there will always be a certain amount of ignorance.
treetopflyer, you are right, this subject matter is very important to me. When someone says (or suggests even) that I am not able to wear my Turban to my work place, indicates to me that you have no appreciation of my faith or indeed other religions.
sp
treetopflyer, you are right, this subject matter is very important to me. When someone says (or suggests even) that I am not able to wear my Turban to my work place, indicates to me that you have no appreciation of my faith or indeed other religions.
sp
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Re: Racial Discrimination
Ahhh Master Baitor
"light twin"???, at least i dont have to where a bullet proof vest to work ! or make a visit to the clinic each week to see if i have the latest STD after all those visits to Ford Sierra !
Answer your phone matey !
sp
"light twin"???, at least i dont have to where a bullet proof vest to work ! or make a visit to the clinic each week to see if i have the latest STD after all those visits to Ford Sierra !
Answer your phone matey !
sp
