Delta Pilots Threaten Strike Over Pay Cuts (merged)
This is probably the perfect solution.
A possible hang-up is that if a Captain writes up a problem in the logbook (and on almost every leg
) which he never found a problem with in the past, then how is this perceived by Flight Ops. Mgmt?
This can be "walking on thin ice". Or as the first soldier in a minefield.
A possible hang-up is that if a Captain writes up a problem in the logbook (and on almost every leg
) which he never found a problem with in the past, then how is this perceived by Flight Ops. Mgmt? This can be "walking on thin ice". Or as the first soldier in a minefield.
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http://today.reuters.com/
Delta judge wary of 'union busting'
Mon Nov 28, 2005 7:08 PM ET
By Christian Plumb
NEW YORK (Reuters) - The judge presiding over Delta Air Lines Inc.'s bankruptcy said on Monday that the carrier's motion seeking to void its pilots' labor contract had the taint of "union busting."
"The issue is whether or not at this time I should permit the rejection of the union contract," U.S. Bankruptcy Judge Prudence Beatty said. "One can talk about union busting and that is precisely what this kind of motion has the taint of.
..."
Her remarks came amid a testy exchange between the judge and Delta lawyer Jack Gallagher in which Beatty, who the pilots have in the past accused of siding against them, assailed some of the airline's main arguments.
The No. 3 U.S. carrier is asking the court to void the pilots' contract so it can force them to accept $325 million in givebacks, part of $3 billion in cost cuts and revenue hikes it says it needs to stem its losses.
"Frankly, I think you have a bias here," she told Gallagher. "It's a personal bias against the pilots."
Gallagher argued that the airline needed to weigh the pilots' rights against those of its 44,000 other employees.
"There is not enough money left in this company to continue to pay these pilots," he said.
Earlier, the pilots' lawyer Bruce Simon grilled the carrier's chief financial officer, questioning the numbers in Delta's restructuring plan.
"Your projection of your fuel expense is $100 million above what the market tells us today," said Simon, a lawyer for the Air Line Pilots Association, which represents Delta's 6,000 pilots.
Delta's plan for stemming its cash drain next year and regaining positive cash flow in 2007 was finalized in September, reflecting oil prices which peaked shortly after Hurricane Katrina.
The plan is based on an estimate of jet fuel priced at $1.73 per gallon in 2006 and 2007. That compares with current market forecasts of $1.69 a gallon, Simon said, adding that each penny of added fuel cost is equivalent to $25 million to $26 million in costs on an annual basis.
The price of jet fuel "has now moderated very significantly," Simon said before a courtroom packed with uniformed pilots and other observers.
Delta Chief Financial Officer Edward Bastian, in his second day on the witness stand, acknowledged that fuel prices had gone down, but said that big risks remained.
Under questioning from Simon, Bastian also acknowledged that the Atlanta-based carrier does not have a contingency plan in place in case of a strike, which the pilots have threatened if the court throws out their contract.
"We've made very clear that we think that if a strike were to occur it would be devastating for the company," he said.
Bastian said in a brief interview following the hearing that Delta still hopes to reach an out-of-court settlement with the pilots, though he said no formal talks were under way.
(Additional reporting by Paritosh Bansal)
Delta judge wary of 'union busting'
Mon Nov 28, 2005 7:08 PM ET
By Christian Plumb
NEW YORK (Reuters) - The judge presiding over Delta Air Lines Inc.'s bankruptcy said on Monday that the carrier's motion seeking to void its pilots' labor contract had the taint of "union busting."
"The issue is whether or not at this time I should permit the rejection of the union contract," U.S. Bankruptcy Judge Prudence Beatty said. "One can talk about union busting and that is precisely what this kind of motion has the taint of.
..."
Her remarks came amid a testy exchange between the judge and Delta lawyer Jack Gallagher in which Beatty, who the pilots have in the past accused of siding against them, assailed some of the airline's main arguments.
The No. 3 U.S. carrier is asking the court to void the pilots' contract so it can force them to accept $325 million in givebacks, part of $3 billion in cost cuts and revenue hikes it says it needs to stem its losses.
"Frankly, I think you have a bias here," she told Gallagher. "It's a personal bias against the pilots."
Gallagher argued that the airline needed to weigh the pilots' rights against those of its 44,000 other employees.
"There is not enough money left in this company to continue to pay these pilots," he said.
Earlier, the pilots' lawyer Bruce Simon grilled the carrier's chief financial officer, questioning the numbers in Delta's restructuring plan.
"Your projection of your fuel expense is $100 million above what the market tells us today," said Simon, a lawyer for the Air Line Pilots Association, which represents Delta's 6,000 pilots.
Delta's plan for stemming its cash drain next year and regaining positive cash flow in 2007 was finalized in September, reflecting oil prices which peaked shortly after Hurricane Katrina.
The plan is based on an estimate of jet fuel priced at $1.73 per gallon in 2006 and 2007. That compares with current market forecasts of $1.69 a gallon, Simon said, adding that each penny of added fuel cost is equivalent to $25 million to $26 million in costs on an annual basis.
The price of jet fuel "has now moderated very significantly," Simon said before a courtroom packed with uniformed pilots and other observers.
Delta Chief Financial Officer Edward Bastian, in his second day on the witness stand, acknowledged that fuel prices had gone down, but said that big risks remained.
Under questioning from Simon, Bastian also acknowledged that the Atlanta-based carrier does not have a contingency plan in place in case of a strike, which the pilots have threatened if the court throws out their contract.
"We've made very clear that we think that if a strike were to occur it would be devastating for the company," he said.
Bastian said in a brief interview following the hearing that Delta still hopes to reach an out-of-court settlement with the pilots, though he said no formal talks were under way.
(Additional reporting by Paritosh Bansal)
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Pilot Strike at DAL
Delta pilots strike
There was a thread re DAL pilots striking. Since some of us now have to work for a living, I was not able to respond in a timely manner. So I’ll start a new thread. It will be several days before I will be able to respond. Flight Instructing in a country that has poor comm. See what develops.
I am a retired WAL/DAL pilot (forced age 60). Thirty Eight years of Union Dues and only used the Union Goons once. I got lots of bad advice, and watch the union destroy several airlines, Eastern is a good example. On the front page of the Miami Herald, there was a picture of the hangar doors closed for the last time. In the foreground, head of ALPA, and Teamsters, fist in the air-headline "We Won". Right, they got Frank Larenzo and thirty thousand people were unemployed. I paid union dues to support these clowns?
If the Union leaders tell you Delta can't replace you, think again. CAL was struck by ALPA many years ago. ALPA said, “they can’t replace us”. Within six months to a year CAL running a full schedule. In fact after the strike the CAL pilots made more than the WAL pilots.
Jerry came to the WAL pilots asking for 10%, two years in a row. The Union guerillas knew better an told him to shove it. Third year it was 50%, and we had thirty days to get on board. Funny thing, the WAL employees finally worked with Jerry, and ended up dam well off.
You can work with the company, and all profit. Or strike DAL and be replaced, and get a real job. Trust me when you look at how much we get paid, working conditions: you will never find anything as good. Unless you marry for money. But pilots will eat their young.
S====
o==
B======
There was a thread re DAL pilots striking. Since some of us now have to work for a living, I was not able to respond in a timely manner. So I’ll start a new thread. It will be several days before I will be able to respond. Flight Instructing in a country that has poor comm. See what develops.
I am a retired WAL/DAL pilot (forced age 60). Thirty Eight years of Union Dues and only used the Union Goons once. I got lots of bad advice, and watch the union destroy several airlines, Eastern is a good example. On the front page of the Miami Herald, there was a picture of the hangar doors closed for the last time. In the foreground, head of ALPA, and Teamsters, fist in the air-headline "We Won". Right, they got Frank Larenzo and thirty thousand people were unemployed. I paid union dues to support these clowns?
If the Union leaders tell you Delta can't replace you, think again. CAL was struck by ALPA many years ago. ALPA said, “they can’t replace us”. Within six months to a year CAL running a full schedule. In fact after the strike the CAL pilots made more than the WAL pilots.
Jerry came to the WAL pilots asking for 10%, two years in a row. The Union guerillas knew better an told him to shove it. Third year it was 50%, and we had thirty days to get on board. Funny thing, the WAL employees finally worked with Jerry, and ended up dam well off.
You can work with the company, and all profit. Or strike DAL and be replaced, and get a real job. Trust me when you look at how much we get paid, working conditions: you will never find anything as good. Unless you marry for money. But pilots will eat their young.
S====
o==
B======
Maybe that is all there is to it.
What about the significance of Delta's "open shop"? This was practically a secret many years ago.
And years ago about 20% or more of their pilots did not even belong to ALPA, based on an article in "Aviation Week & ST".
Did that not have a major effect on negotiating strength?
How about the lack of specific scope clause language which allowed a large amount of pilot outsourcing, and enabled Bombardier to sell or lease an unprecedented number of 50-seat jets, not just to Comair, but to a large number of regional airlines all over the US. This was a major, watershed event for pilot job at all of the US major airlines-and it created far fewer jobs for pilots at the regionals to apply for.
Apparently, Hank Duffy did little or nothing to encourage Delta to hire Eastern pilots, but I don't know the actual, complete story.
What about the significance of Delta's "open shop"? This was practically a secret many years ago.
And years ago about 20% or more of their pilots did not even belong to ALPA, based on an article in "Aviation Week & ST".
Did that not have a major effect on negotiating strength?
How about the lack of specific scope clause language which allowed a large amount of pilot outsourcing, and enabled Bombardier to sell or lease an unprecedented number of 50-seat jets, not just to Comair, but to a large number of regional airlines all over the US. This was a major, watershed event for pilot job at all of the US major airlines-and it created far fewer jobs for pilots at the regionals to apply for.
Apparently, Hank Duffy did little or nothing to encourage Delta to hire Eastern pilots, but I don't know the actual, complete story.
Last edited by Ignition Override; 1st Dec 2005 at 23:55.
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What other unions boast an average income of $160k?
Personally I think unions have no place amongst professional people. In a free market economy, the fittest will survive. The weakest will fail. As applicable to Delta as to Ford or AT&T.
Bankruptcy means inability to pay debts. Dissolution of the assets. It's over. Chapter 13 means "lets try and get out of it". It is a collective effort.
Loss of Delta would cause me major personal headaches, I dont want to see it happen. But that doesn't mean it shouldn't happen.
Personally I think unions have no place amongst professional people. In a free market economy, the fittest will survive. The weakest will fail. As applicable to Delta as to Ford or AT&T.
Bankruptcy means inability to pay debts. Dissolution of the assets. It's over. Chapter 13 means "lets try and get out of it". It is a collective effort.
Loss of Delta would cause me major personal headaches, I dont want to see it happen. But that doesn't mean it shouldn't happen.
Suggest you check out the river pilots. They make 160K pa look like a pikers wage. Also longshoreman. Crane operators in San Juan harbor do 250 K. No idea what the Port Newark boys do but I'll bet it is more than that.
My only problem is getting in.
My only problem is getting in.
This may be incidental. Unusual, opinionated remarks were made over a week ago by the "impartial" bankruptcy judge who presides over Delta's financial reorganization. Days later, possibly to avoid the perception of strong bias (maybe she was on the defensive), according to Reuters News, she reportedly had a conflict with Delta mgmt.'s attorney. Whether these are just words to get people off of her back so that observers relax and become complacent (legal/political types polish this skill into a very advanced art), time will tell.
But as for the major pay cuts made recently by pilots at almost all US major airlines (except for the highly-successful Southwest, which has been heavily unionized for many years), these are significant. This does not include benefit cuts and work rules changes (paradoxically, some mgmts don't want to guarantee pilots more than 4 hours [4:00] minimum pay per day, but they moan about productivity...who can reconcile this contradiction? One tentative contract lowered the guarantee from min. 4:15 to 4:00 per day. Is a little light now illuminating a pitch-black cave? A closed mind?).
How many thousands of bankruptcy attorneys and judges are also living on a salary which is 30-50% lower than a year ago? How many thousands were laid off, whereby many work in an entirely different field? Some airlines in chapter 11 are paying huge fees per hour (reportedly around $800) to the attorneys and to some secretarial types. These people reorganize lots of debt etc, at the going "market rates". Basically, push papers, plan, negotiate and argue cases.
But paying somebody an approximate "market rate" for flying an aircraft, whether automated or not, with normal systems and under good conditions or making critical weather versus fuel (or systems) decisions, incorporating thousands of hours of flight experience does not count? Critical, timely decisions, which do and will influence the safe arrival of a hundred or hundreds of lives (no time to sit back for hours or days and be the expert "Monday Morning Quarterback" after an accident, as investigative attorneys and judges have for reflection...for high "market rates" per hour) in all but the most severe weather conditions. This happens as two-pilot crews check on which unfamiliar airports (no rescue service available at 2200L?unfamiliar high terrain nearby?) might be reached using rough estimates (little or no time to attempt a call to Dispatch, or the transmitters have blocked signals) as to how much fuel is required under quickly changing weather conditions, market pay rates are not applicable?
Under one airline mgmt's recent proposal in a Chapter 11, 1113 C or E court filing, the First Officer on a jet with about 100, maybe 120 seats should earn about what a Seattle, WA, city or school bus driver can earn. By the way, the co-founder of the fabulously successful COSTCO retail chain only wants and earns a regular salary of $400,000 per year: his contract is only one page long, and he can be "terminated for cause". His employees are paid 2 or 3 times what WALMART's workers earn. And so labor costs are THE problem? JETBLUE's CEO Mr. Neeleman also receives a similar salary. How about CEOs at AMR, Delta, United, NWA and USAirways (check Stephen Wolf in the 90s)? Market rates? Did I say incredibly greedy and "overreaching", especially during Chapter 11? No, I did not.
OK, we pilots all just "fell off the back of the turnip wagon"
, on our first trip from our remote, muddy peasant village. We are not highly-trained professionals, no, not at all, but are subordinate, unlettered, unwashed serfs, with no idea how to get back to our 'thorp',and should be thankful to be given more than one loaf of bread and onion per day (the origin of our word "lord" means "loaf-giver").
But as for the major pay cuts made recently by pilots at almost all US major airlines (except for the highly-successful Southwest, which has been heavily unionized for many years), these are significant. This does not include benefit cuts and work rules changes (paradoxically, some mgmts don't want to guarantee pilots more than 4 hours [4:00] minimum pay per day, but they moan about productivity...who can reconcile this contradiction? One tentative contract lowered the guarantee from min. 4:15 to 4:00 per day. Is a little light now illuminating a pitch-black cave? A closed mind?).
How many thousands of bankruptcy attorneys and judges are also living on a salary which is 30-50% lower than a year ago? How many thousands were laid off, whereby many work in an entirely different field? Some airlines in chapter 11 are paying huge fees per hour (reportedly around $800) to the attorneys and to some secretarial types. These people reorganize lots of debt etc, at the going "market rates". Basically, push papers, plan, negotiate and argue cases.
But paying somebody an approximate "market rate" for flying an aircraft, whether automated or not, with normal systems and under good conditions or making critical weather versus fuel (or systems) decisions, incorporating thousands of hours of flight experience does not count? Critical, timely decisions, which do and will influence the safe arrival of a hundred or hundreds of lives (no time to sit back for hours or days and be the expert "Monday Morning Quarterback" after an accident, as investigative attorneys and judges have for reflection...for high "market rates" per hour) in all but the most severe weather conditions. This happens as two-pilot crews check on which unfamiliar airports (no rescue service available at 2200L?unfamiliar high terrain nearby?) might be reached using rough estimates (little or no time to attempt a call to Dispatch, or the transmitters have blocked signals) as to how much fuel is required under quickly changing weather conditions, market pay rates are not applicable?
Under one airline mgmt's recent proposal in a Chapter 11, 1113 C or E court filing, the First Officer on a jet with about 100, maybe 120 seats should earn about what a Seattle, WA, city or school bus driver can earn. By the way, the co-founder of the fabulously successful COSTCO retail chain only wants and earns a regular salary of $400,000 per year: his contract is only one page long, and he can be "terminated for cause". His employees are paid 2 or 3 times what WALMART's workers earn. And so labor costs are THE problem? JETBLUE's CEO Mr. Neeleman also receives a similar salary. How about CEOs at AMR, Delta, United, NWA and USAirways (check Stephen Wolf in the 90s)? Market rates? Did I say incredibly greedy and "overreaching", especially during Chapter 11? No, I did not.
OK, we pilots all just "fell off the back of the turnip wagon"
, on our first trip from our remote, muddy peasant village. We are not highly-trained professionals, no, not at all, but are subordinate, unlettered, unwashed serfs, with no idea how to get back to our 'thorp',and should be thankful to be given more than one loaf of bread and onion per day (the origin of our word "lord" means "loaf-giver").
Last edited by Ignition Override; 9th Dec 2005 at 03:58.
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>>What about the significance of Delta's "open shop"? This was practically a secret many years ago.
And years ago about 20% or more of their pilots did not even belong to ALPA, based on an article in "Aviation Week & ST".
Did that not have a major effect on negotiating strength?<<
Well, actually, Eastern was "open shop" (or more accurately agency shop) as well. All of the states in the Southeast have "right to work" laws mandating some form of "voluntary" union participation. Most ALPA contracts in right to work states require a "contract maintenance fee" for non-union members, allegedly covering only only those expenses related to the collective bargaining process.
With the largest pilot group at a single airline in the U.S., the APA at American, membership has traditionally been voluntary with no contract maintenance fee, a true open shop. I'm not sure if this has changed in the recent concessionary contracts.
And years ago about 20% or more of their pilots did not even belong to ALPA, based on an article in "Aviation Week & ST".
Did that not have a major effect on negotiating strength?<<
Well, actually, Eastern was "open shop" (or more accurately agency shop) as well. All of the states in the Southeast have "right to work" laws mandating some form of "voluntary" union participation. Most ALPA contracts in right to work states require a "contract maintenance fee" for non-union members, allegedly covering only only those expenses related to the collective bargaining process.
With the largest pilot group at a single airline in the U.S., the APA at American, membership has traditionally been voluntary with no contract maintenance fee, a true open shop. I'm not sure if this has changed in the recent concessionary contracts.
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the greedy "pros" aver at Delta are getting exactaly what they demanded and deserve "max pay till the last day" Greed and lazyness got them where they are today, good on them.
They had max pay now it is time to get the rest of it. The days of money for not working are over. Stop crying and start working more than 8 days a month.
ALPA has driven these airlines into the ground shame on them.
They had max pay now it is time to get the rest of it. The days of money for not working are over. Stop crying and start working more than 8 days a month.
ALPA has driven these airlines into the ground shame on them.
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BREAKING NEWS
MSNBC News Services
Updated: 8:31 p.m. ET Dec. 11, 2005
NEW YORK - Delta Air Lines Inc. said Sunday it reached a tentative agreement with the union representing its 6,000 pilots that would cut compensation by 15 percent beginning this week while the two sides continue negotiating.
Delta, which sought bankruptcy protection in September, said the interim agreement with the Air Line Pilots Association is subject to pilot ratification by no later than Dec. 28.
“This agreement reflects the resolve of Delta people to work together to help save the company,” said Ed Bastian, Delta’s chief financial officer, in a statement. “We recognize and appreciate the additional sacrifice this will represent.”
The union did not immediately return a call for comment.
Delta said the agreement provides for a 14 percent hourly wage reduction “and reductions in other pilot pay and cost items equivalent to approximately an additional 1 percent hourly wage reduction.” The interim cost reductions would be effective Dec. 15 and would remain in effect while the parties seek to reach a comprehensive agreement.
The company and ALPA would seek to negotiate a comprehensive agreement by March 1, with pilot membership ratification by March 22.
Delta and ALPA will request that the bankruptcy court suspend a hearing on the company’s motion to reject the existing collective bargaining agreement, pending the ratification process for the new agreement, Delta said.
Delta said that achieving pilot labor cost reductions is an important element of its restructuring plan. The restructuring plan calls for an additional $3 billion in annual cost reductions and revenue improvements by the end of 2007.
MSNBC News Services
Updated: 8:31 p.m. ET Dec. 11, 2005
NEW YORK - Delta Air Lines Inc. said Sunday it reached a tentative agreement with the union representing its 6,000 pilots that would cut compensation by 15 percent beginning this week while the two sides continue negotiating.
Delta, which sought bankruptcy protection in September, said the interim agreement with the Air Line Pilots Association is subject to pilot ratification by no later than Dec. 28.
“This agreement reflects the resolve of Delta people to work together to help save the company,” said Ed Bastian, Delta’s chief financial officer, in a statement. “We recognize and appreciate the additional sacrifice this will represent.”
The union did not immediately return a call for comment.
Delta said the agreement provides for a 14 percent hourly wage reduction “and reductions in other pilot pay and cost items equivalent to approximately an additional 1 percent hourly wage reduction.” The interim cost reductions would be effective Dec. 15 and would remain in effect while the parties seek to reach a comprehensive agreement.
The company and ALPA would seek to negotiate a comprehensive agreement by March 1, with pilot membership ratification by March 22.
Delta and ALPA will request that the bankruptcy court suspend a hearing on the company’s motion to reject the existing collective bargaining agreement, pending the ratification process for the new agreement, Delta said.
Delta said that achieving pilot labor cost reductions is an important element of its restructuring plan. The restructuring plan calls for an additional $3 billion in annual cost reductions and revenue improvements by the end of 2007.
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To put all of this in perspective, Net Jets pays it's BBJ captains $229K per year. I think the major airlines of the world can stop bleating. It is also worth mentioning that the unions have backed down from confronting thier managements these past few years, and subsequently have empowered them to seek ever deeper and more draconian cuts in pay and benefits. Delta pilots 'agreeing' to 'only' a 14% cut (on top of the 30% last year) have only guaranteed that they will soon be amongst the lowest paid in the industry. I will also predict that within 6 months Delta will cancel the pensions. Sad.
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DAL pilots lived high on the hog after 9-11 while all the majors took big cuts, but they would not work with the CO.
They demanded more money and less work. That mind set got them to where they are today. They walked around with their noses in the air and looked down thier noses and were pricks on the crew busses, when ever you had to ride with them. They acted like the world should bow in respect when they passed.
Well its pay back time and how sweet it is. The big pay rate might have worked if they worked for it but they demanded to make the money and sit at the house too.
If they wanted what the Co Execs got then they should have got into managment. Stop crying and face the music, you had max pay to a fault and now it is pay back time....good on them.
They demanded more money and less work. That mind set got them to where they are today. They walked around with their noses in the air and looked down thier noses and were pricks on the crew busses, when ever you had to ride with them. They acted like the world should bow in respect when they passed.
Well its pay back time and how sweet it is. The big pay rate might have worked if they worked for it but they demanded to make the money and sit at the house too.
If they wanted what the Co Execs got then they should have got into managment. Stop crying and face the music, you had max pay to a fault and now it is pay back time....good on them.
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Rantsalot/411A. Your comments are a sad commentary on your maturity and common sense. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that ANY lowering of pay and conditions, regardless of the airline in question, just makes it less likely that the entire profession will maintain it's worth. Attitudes like yours are a sad reflection of some of the losers that this, and many other professions attract. Rantsalot, you sound like the typical underachiever, chips on both shoulders. 411A, well, not much left to say about you really. Too many days in the hot desert sun. 
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The facts are the facts, never be more trouble than you are worth.
DAL pilots thought they were worth alot more than they were. More money and less work finaly caught up with them and now they are singing the blues.
They should have looked at the glass as half full instead of trying to one up the Jones. They have given the airline pilot profession the same reputation as baseball players in that when both cry about money the public and managment dosent want to hear about it.
Stop trying to make excueses for them. They were jerks from the moment they got the max pay, were jerks about their jumpseat and I only hope they are all on the street soon.
DAL pilots thought they were worth alot more than they were. More money and less work finaly caught up with them and now they are singing the blues.
They should have looked at the glass as half full instead of trying to one up the Jones. They have given the airline pilot profession the same reputation as baseball players in that when both cry about money the public and managment dosent want to hear about it.
Stop trying to make excueses for them. They were jerks from the moment they got the max pay, were jerks about their jumpseat and I only hope they are all on the street soon.
rantsalot,
Good grief, Man !!! I suppose everyone is entitled to his own opinion. However, you are NOT entitled to your own "facts". No pilot group controls the jumpseat...that's a management function with the pilots trying to influence the situation as best they can. Sometimes, it just doesn't go the way one would like.
I can tell you...for a "fact"...the DL pilots have tried to get that flow-through JS for a long time. The JS at DL has been a political football as long as I can remember. It may be coming about shortly...wait and see what happens. Maybe some of those "jerks" will be better able to accomodate you in the future; I know they would like to be able to do that.
In the meantime, spend a little more time working on your character and emotional development. It appears that Mommy took your "binky" away and the only response, given your level of maturity, is to slug the dog.
Just a bit too much glee at other people's misfortune, but YOUR turn is coming...bet the rent money on it, Kid.
Good grief, Man !!! I suppose everyone is entitled to his own opinion. However, you are NOT entitled to your own "facts". No pilot group controls the jumpseat...that's a management function with the pilots trying to influence the situation as best they can. Sometimes, it just doesn't go the way one would like.
I can tell you...for a "fact"...the DL pilots have tried to get that flow-through JS for a long time. The JS at DL has been a political football as long as I can remember. It may be coming about shortly...wait and see what happens. Maybe some of those "jerks" will be better able to accomodate you in the future; I know they would like to be able to do that.
In the meantime, spend a little more time working on your character and emotional development. It appears that Mommy took your "binky" away and the only response, given your level of maturity, is to slug the dog.
Just a bit too much glee at other people's misfortune, but YOUR turn is coming...bet the rent money on it, Kid.
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Rants:
Delta has lost over 25 Billion dollars in the last few years.
Nothing to do with pilot wages.
No one in management will ever be held accountable for it's completely blatant negligence.
Instead, management, the media and people who have no idea what we do for a living will blame the pilots.
Even when things are good these business plans earn a very small percentage of profit.
Delta should have been completely transforming many years ago. This also applies to Northwest, United and US Air.
For as long as I can remember, it has been management executive types, together with attorneys and judges, who have raped airlines, leaving wakes of destruction in their paths.
Throughout the years I have met aviators like yourself who think we earn to much money.
To compare us to hoop shooters is ridiculous. They get to miss 60% of their shots per game.
We don't get to miss any.
God bless you and please smell the coffee.
Buttafuoco
Delta has lost over 25 Billion dollars in the last few years.
Nothing to do with pilot wages.
No one in management will ever be held accountable for it's completely blatant negligence.
Instead, management, the media and people who have no idea what we do for a living will blame the pilots.
Even when things are good these business plans earn a very small percentage of profit.
Delta should have been completely transforming many years ago. This also applies to Northwest, United and US Air.
For as long as I can remember, it has been management executive types, together with attorneys and judges, who have raped airlines, leaving wakes of destruction in their paths.
Throughout the years I have met aviators like yourself who think we earn to much money.
To compare us to hoop shooters is ridiculous. They get to miss 60% of their shots per game.
We don't get to miss any.
God bless you and please smell the coffee.
Buttafuoco
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The ALPA guys (DAL included) have never seen a 14 or 16 day month without screaming bloody murder. For what they got paid for what few days they work they should be happy to get it.
Instead they just kept demanding more money and less work. I agree that managment is half the equation but managments main fault was agreeing to ALPA's crazy contract demands. They hamstrung the airline by requiring more pilots than needed, and imposed work rules that let many sit at home and get paid.
I have heard several DAL and United pilots laughing in the van about how the new contract (before the correction) was like stealing and we are rapeing the Co. Well guys it was not LIKE STEALING is was stealing to not work for the big money you WERE getting. Now it is time to pay the piper.
I recommend the ALPA guys get rid of overpaid Capt. Worth and get a proper work ethic and get back to flying airplanes again. If you dont want to fly then get out of the seat and let the many pilots that do want to fly have the seat.
Do pilots loose all desire to fly airplanes and loose all work ethics when they get the ALPA card ????
Instead they just kept demanding more money and less work. I agree that managment is half the equation but managments main fault was agreeing to ALPA's crazy contract demands. They hamstrung the airline by requiring more pilots than needed, and imposed work rules that let many sit at home and get paid.
I have heard several DAL and United pilots laughing in the van about how the new contract (before the correction) was like stealing and we are rapeing the Co. Well guys it was not LIKE STEALING is was stealing to not work for the big money you WERE getting. Now it is time to pay the piper.
I recommend the ALPA guys get rid of overpaid Capt. Worth and get a proper work ethic and get back to flying airplanes again. If you dont want to fly then get out of the seat and let the many pilots that do want to fly have the seat.
Do pilots loose all desire to fly airplanes and loose all work ethics when they get the ALPA card ????
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Some more opinions in this article:
______________________________________
Pilots likely to bite bullet, OK deal
By RUSSELL GRANTHAM, KIRSTEN TAGAMI
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
Published on: 12/13/05
The interim pay cut deal between Delta Air Lines and its pilots union should gain reluctant ratification, a cross-section of observers predicted Monday.
The airline and union leaders hammered out an agreement Sunday that will chop wage rates by 14 percent and end a bankruptcy court battle over Delta's request to void its current pilot contract and impose terms.
It commits the two sides to more negotiations over a broader deal by March 1, however, and it calls for arbitration if those talks don't succeed.
"I'm not absolutely certain the pilots will pass it, but I think the odds are probably very favorable. The wolf is at the throat, so to speak," said Les Hough, director of research at the Usery Center for the Workplace at Georgia State University.
He thinks the pilots will prefer this agreement "over something even more draconian that the bankruptcy judge could mandate."
Ratification must be completed by Dec. 28, after which the two sides will start talks on a broader agreement. Delta and the union present the plan today to U.S. Bankruptcy Judge Prudence Beatty for her approval, which is expected.
Both the union and Delta gave ground in the interim deal. Delta had insisted on a 19 percent pay cut, while the union publicly offered 9 percent. Hough said Delta executives probably realized a win in court and imposed terms would embitter pilots and risk operational problems.
Richard Henry, a Boeing 767 captain for Delta, predicted the airline's 6,000 pilots will ratify.
"It reflects the reality of our situation, of our current environment," said Henry, 48, who lives in east Cobb County with his wife and three kids.
'Just the beginning'
"This will make a total of 46 percent pay cut in the past 12 months," said Henry, an 18-year Delta veteran, but "this is just the beginning. They want work-rule changes and other things."
Pilots took a 32 percent pay cut about a year ago, in a deal that helped Delta avert a Chapter 11 filing then. But continuing losses and sharply higher fuel prices this year sent it into bankruptcy proceedings in September and prompted requests for more pilot pay cuts.
Kit Darby, who runs Air Inc., an Atlanta-based pilot career service, said the interim cut would put Delta "in line" with other distressed carriers whose pilots have taken cuts.
The annual pay of a 10th-year Delta pilot flying as captain of its smallest mainline jet would be $118,788, according to Air Inc. Pay for the same job ranges from $110,952 at Northwest, which recently reached a similar stopgap deal in bankruptcy, to $181,248 at discount carrier Southwest Airlines, one of the few carriers that has remained consistently profitable.
"Absolutely no one wants to take a financial cut," said Darby, but most pilots would rather accept a pay cut than endanger their jobs through a strike. Delta's union leaders had suggested they might call a strike if terms were imposed.
"Live to fight another day is what most pilots come to at this point," said Darby, a United pilot.
Jon Ash, a longtime aviation consultant in Washington, called the compromise "very positive for both parties. You really wanted to avoid having the judge impose a decision."
The airline's motion to void the pilots' contract and impose terms had bogged down in hearings while Beatty prodded the two sides to settle — the typical outcome in such cases involving airlines. A potential deadline for a ruling this Friday may have prompted movement toward a compromise.
The Air Line Pilots Association is endorsing the interim deal and will hold pilot meetings to explain the terms. "There are a lot of positives," said ALPA spokesman John Culp, including that the deal cuts "the judge out of the pattern."
He said Delta also agreed to negotiate profit-sharing and stock-related compensation for pilots once it emerges from Chapter 11, as well as giving pilots credit for earlier concessions and future pension losses if Delta terminates its pension plans. Delta has not said it plans to terminate its pension plans but stopped contributing to them shortly after entering Chapter 11.
http://www.ajc.com/business/content/...3bizdelta.html
______________________________________
Pilots likely to bite bullet, OK deal
By RUSSELL GRANTHAM, KIRSTEN TAGAMI
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
Published on: 12/13/05
The interim pay cut deal between Delta Air Lines and its pilots union should gain reluctant ratification, a cross-section of observers predicted Monday.
The airline and union leaders hammered out an agreement Sunday that will chop wage rates by 14 percent and end a bankruptcy court battle over Delta's request to void its current pilot contract and impose terms.
It commits the two sides to more negotiations over a broader deal by March 1, however, and it calls for arbitration if those talks don't succeed.
"I'm not absolutely certain the pilots will pass it, but I think the odds are probably very favorable. The wolf is at the throat, so to speak," said Les Hough, director of research at the Usery Center for the Workplace at Georgia State University.
He thinks the pilots will prefer this agreement "over something even more draconian that the bankruptcy judge could mandate."
Ratification must be completed by Dec. 28, after which the two sides will start talks on a broader agreement. Delta and the union present the plan today to U.S. Bankruptcy Judge Prudence Beatty for her approval, which is expected.
Both the union and Delta gave ground in the interim deal. Delta had insisted on a 19 percent pay cut, while the union publicly offered 9 percent. Hough said Delta executives probably realized a win in court and imposed terms would embitter pilots and risk operational problems.
Richard Henry, a Boeing 767 captain for Delta, predicted the airline's 6,000 pilots will ratify.
"It reflects the reality of our situation, of our current environment," said Henry, 48, who lives in east Cobb County with his wife and three kids.
'Just the beginning'
"This will make a total of 46 percent pay cut in the past 12 months," said Henry, an 18-year Delta veteran, but "this is just the beginning. They want work-rule changes and other things."
Pilots took a 32 percent pay cut about a year ago, in a deal that helped Delta avert a Chapter 11 filing then. But continuing losses and sharply higher fuel prices this year sent it into bankruptcy proceedings in September and prompted requests for more pilot pay cuts.
Kit Darby, who runs Air Inc., an Atlanta-based pilot career service, said the interim cut would put Delta "in line" with other distressed carriers whose pilots have taken cuts.
The annual pay of a 10th-year Delta pilot flying as captain of its smallest mainline jet would be $118,788, according to Air Inc. Pay for the same job ranges from $110,952 at Northwest, which recently reached a similar stopgap deal in bankruptcy, to $181,248 at discount carrier Southwest Airlines, one of the few carriers that has remained consistently profitable.
"Absolutely no one wants to take a financial cut," said Darby, but most pilots would rather accept a pay cut than endanger their jobs through a strike. Delta's union leaders had suggested they might call a strike if terms were imposed.
"Live to fight another day is what most pilots come to at this point," said Darby, a United pilot.
Jon Ash, a longtime aviation consultant in Washington, called the compromise "very positive for both parties. You really wanted to avoid having the judge impose a decision."
The airline's motion to void the pilots' contract and impose terms had bogged down in hearings while Beatty prodded the two sides to settle — the typical outcome in such cases involving airlines. A potential deadline for a ruling this Friday may have prompted movement toward a compromise.
The Air Line Pilots Association is endorsing the interim deal and will hold pilot meetings to explain the terms. "There are a lot of positives," said ALPA spokesman John Culp, including that the deal cuts "the judge out of the pattern."
He said Delta also agreed to negotiate profit-sharing and stock-related compensation for pilots once it emerges from Chapter 11, as well as giving pilots credit for earlier concessions and future pension losses if Delta terminates its pension plans. Delta has not said it plans to terminate its pension plans but stopped contributing to them shortly after entering Chapter 11.
http://www.ajc.com/business/content/...3bizdelta.html