BA rosters: down to earth
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ixion17,
Where do you get 44K from ? This is not the starting "pensionable" pay, it is lower. However, the pensionable pay goes up every year, and assuming you are under 31 (or more likely 36), you will retire on a "pensionable" of almost £120K (todays figures).........
Where do you get 44K from ? This is not the starting "pensionable" pay, it is lower. However, the pensionable pay goes up every year, and assuming you are under 31 (or more likely 36), you will retire on a "pensionable" of almost £120K (todays figures).........
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Uh oh - I knew this would get complicated!
I have used the simple 'formula' of 9% of basic pay (£44kish for starters) . The reality is that pensionable pay at the start is around £32k and for which you get a contribution of 12%. The company pays in 7% and the individual pays in 5%. Still equates to 9% of basic pay but makes the sums easier.
You are correct that the pension contribution will go up with your basic salary, ending up at around £10k after a couple of decades (for a basic salary of £120k). However, in my opinion this doesn't really alter the end game sums over 20 years as compound interest is a bigger factor and makes the early years contibutions as important, if not more. However, for those looking at more than 20 years in the company then higher payments and compound interest both start to work in your favour, and MAY even be better than a final salary scheme!
The new pension scheme is probably average for a large company these days. At least it is 'your' money and can't be touched if the company goes broke in the interim, as some of our American colleagues are discovering to their cost. IMO it should be improved by the company making a larger contribution to the pot to bring it into line with the offerings from the competition.
As ever I am no expert and am more than happy to be corrected on any of this.
I have used the simple 'formula' of 9% of basic pay (£44kish for starters) . The reality is that pensionable pay at the start is around £32k and for which you get a contribution of 12%. The company pays in 7% and the individual pays in 5%. Still equates to 9% of basic pay but makes the sums easier.
You are correct that the pension contribution will go up with your basic salary, ending up at around £10k after a couple of decades (for a basic salary of £120k). However, in my opinion this doesn't really alter the end game sums over 20 years as compound interest is a bigger factor and makes the early years contibutions as important, if not more. However, for those looking at more than 20 years in the company then higher payments and compound interest both start to work in your favour, and MAY even be better than a final salary scheme!
The new pension scheme is probably average for a large company these days. At least it is 'your' money and can't be touched if the company goes broke in the interim, as some of our American colleagues are discovering to their cost. IMO it should be improved by the company making a larger contribution to the pot to bring it into line with the offerings from the competition.
As ever I am no expert and am more than happy to be corrected on any of this.
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expedite_climb wrote:
The problem with that is that that high pensionable salary at the end is of naff all use to you. You have no years left to let compound interest work it's magic.
Different when under final salary it's your two best years that determine your pension.
That's not to say £120k is not good, it's very good but for a money purchase pension to be any good you need shed loads to be going in from the beginning.
you will retire on a "pensionable" of almost £120K (todays figures).........
Different when under final salary it's your two best years that determine your pension.
That's not to say £120k is not good, it's very good but for a money purchase pension to be any good you need shed loads to be going in from the beginning.
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Figures worked out today. Current age 35. Retire 55/60.
No AVC = £6540/ £9030.
Max AVC = £11800/16300.
The only way this scheme can work is if a) you are very young which most DEP's are not or b) you already have a decent pension to import.
Makes the state pension look reasonable!
No AVC = £6540/ £9030.
Max AVC = £11800/16300.
The only way this scheme can work is if a) you are very young which most DEP's are not or b) you already have a decent pension to import.
Makes the state pension look reasonable!
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This sounds indeed exactly like a pension scheme you could find in most European airlines. A percentage of your basic salary goes into a fund on your own name, and starts building a nice capital. Anything in there is yours to grab at retirement, the well being of the company is no factor.
Question: normally, you can get the whole sum in one payment, if you wish or choose for monthly sums. Is this possible at BA too?
And to get back on the thread: thanks for all the replies guys. There is stuff about:
Rosters, payment, pension, social life, destinations,...
Keep it coming on these topics!
Now: what is left? What does one need to know about BA, if you're deciding to join or not?
For example: how bad are you taxed? And on what - basic salary/flight pay/check-in clear allowances - ?
How about reserve duties?
The period to captaincy had been covered on another thread: let's not start that one again. I live on hope anyways: it won't be that bad.
Optimistic greetz
Question: normally, you can get the whole sum in one payment, if you wish or choose for monthly sums. Is this possible at BA too?
And to get back on the thread: thanks for all the replies guys. There is stuff about:
Rosters, payment, pension, social life, destinations,...
Keep it coming on these topics!
Now: what is left? What does one need to know about BA, if you're deciding to join or not?
For example: how bad are you taxed? And on what - basic salary/flight pay/check-in clear allowances - ?
How about reserve duties?
The period to captaincy had been covered on another thread: let's not start that one again. I live on hope anyways: it won't be that bad.
Optimistic greetz
Last edited by flyA380; 12th May 2005 at 19:13.
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Remember how fast they are recruiting, those already in this year or joining in the near future will climb the seniority list on their fleet very fast to begin with. The first to join this year are already getting trip lines with some decent stuff on them!
Couldonlyaffordafiver
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Right, pay attention you lot!!
Your pension is based upon 12% of your PENSIONABLE PAY. This is not the same as your basic pay. It equates to 9% of that, near as dammit.
For example, if you join on the 777, your basic in year 1 will be £42841. Your pensionable (which BAMPS is based upon) is £32130 so your 12% contribution rate comes from that. If you join on shorthaul (A320), your basic pay will be a little less but your pensionable pay will be the same.
Edited 'cos I've been up all night and lost the ability to count....
Your pension is based upon 12% of your PENSIONABLE PAY. This is not the same as your basic pay. It equates to 9% of that, near as dammit.
For example, if you join on the 777, your basic in year 1 will be £42841. Your pensionable (which BAMPS is based upon) is £32130 so your 12% contribution rate comes from that. If you join on shorthaul (A320), your basic pay will be a little less but your pensionable pay will be the same.
Edited 'cos I've been up all night and lost the ability to count....
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Seniority on the 777
Just going back to the 777 lifestyle thread...
What you have heard about seniority vs quality of life at BA is all true. On the 777 being junior isn't the end of the world but the more people below you, the more choices you'll have.
Here's the good news: There are between 300 and 330 F/O's on the fleet depending on training and recruitment. If you start tomorrow, of course you'll be at the bottom, but not for long. As mentioned, there are about 90 DEP's starting on the 777 in the next 12 months. That means that you'll be 30% of the way up the list before you even get to go to the same place twice.
So after your first year, you'll be in quite an enviable position. Some guys take 8 years to get to the same level on the '400. The other nice thing is that everyone is frozen on type for the first 5 years after training. That means that you are guaranteed to maintain that buffer below you until you have a bit of seniority within the company as a whole.
Come on in, the water's lovely.
LFW
What you have heard about seniority vs quality of life at BA is all true. On the 777 being junior isn't the end of the world but the more people below you, the more choices you'll have.
Here's the good news: There are between 300 and 330 F/O's on the fleet depending on training and recruitment. If you start tomorrow, of course you'll be at the bottom, but not for long. As mentioned, there are about 90 DEP's starting on the 777 in the next 12 months. That means that you'll be 30% of the way up the list before you even get to go to the same place twice.
So after your first year, you'll be in quite an enviable position. Some guys take 8 years to get to the same level on the '400. The other nice thing is that everyone is frozen on type for the first 5 years after training. That means that you are guaranteed to maintain that buffer below you until you have a bit of seniority within the company as a whole.
Come on in, the water's lovely.
LFW
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I'm one of the 90 mentioned in LFW's post above & I'm being painted a pretty naff picture of the working pattern on the 777. Will new starters on the 777 just be doing East Coast bullets for the first 6/12/18 months?
Roughly how many days off a month are we likely to get in the first few months - I've been told by by my AME that one guy he treats just left the 777 fleet after spending a grand total of 6 days at home in Feb. (Bearing in mind he does commute from Manch area).
I must admit I was well excited to be moving to BA on the 777 after several years of EZY but I have to say I'm rather less enthusiastic now I've got to know a bit more. I was hoping to be less knackered in the long run but it seems not to be the case. Can anyone enlighten me?
Roughly how many days off a month are we likely to get in the first few months - I've been told by by my AME that one guy he treats just left the 777 fleet after spending a grand total of 6 days at home in Feb. (Bearing in mind he does commute from Manch area).
I must admit I was well excited to be moving to BA on the 777 after several years of EZY but I have to say I'm rather less enthusiastic now I've got to know a bit more. I was hoping to be less knackered in the long run but it seems not to be the case. Can anyone enlighten me?
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Do not panic, I have spent nearly 6 years on the 777 and it is not that bad. I was near the bottom of the p1 list for over a year. If you go for a blindline, ie pre-ops allocate your work, you must have a minimum of 3 local nights off after every trip unless you agree to do back to backs which suits commuters. You should get a minimum of 10 days off and sometimes more if the work reduces as it does in the winter. It is a fab jet and ba is a good company to work for. Anybody who joins from outside, like wot I did, are glad they did..
777 Driver
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I was offered the 777 but decided to stay where I am. If you are a skipper on a jet stay where you are. If you fly a turboprop and are less than 27 take it. The first five years you will have a life from hell.
Lets have a look
1. No weekends
2. Wage drop
3. Holidays when you don't want them.
4. LGW or LHR.
5. Away from your family.
6. Night stopping with people you don't want to be with.
7. Hours and hours of boredom. (Think about a LGW-AGP)!
8. 20 years to command.
9. A pension calculated on a reduced salary.
10. Un-confirmed staff travel.
I could go on but I'm off to the Cup Final. Enjoy your day in Washington again!!!
Lets have a look
1. No weekends
2. Wage drop
3. Holidays when you don't want them.
4. LGW or LHR.
5. Away from your family.
6. Night stopping with people you don't want to be with.
7. Hours and hours of boredom. (Think about a LGW-AGP)!
8. 20 years to command.
9. A pension calculated on a reduced salary.
10. Un-confirmed staff travel.
I could go on but I'm off to the Cup Final. Enjoy your day in Washington again!!!
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Flying Fiona
Everyone is entitled to their opinion of course. But if you've not worked for BA, nor flown the B777, you may not be in a very strong position to comment.
For example: Do you even know how holidays are allocated?
I suspect those looking for information, may be more persuaded by people who actually know!
Everyone is entitled to their opinion of course. But if you've not worked for BA, nor flown the B777, you may not be in a very strong position to comment.
For example: Do you even know how holidays are allocated?
I suspect those looking for information, may be more persuaded by people who actually know!
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Fiona : Lets compare that to life in a low cost -
1. Maybe 1 weekend in 4 (will be knackered anyway)
2. First year BA take home pay will be around 500pounds more per month than SFO at easyJet. About 12 years Captains salary at low cost will equal first 12 years salary as FO with BA cumulatively.
3. Ditto, however I think BA's holiday system is fairer where if one year you don't get what you want, then next year you are more likely to.
4. LGW/LHR - some hassle I agree but commuting available if Long Haul
5. Not everyone has family, many have family abroad which may be more accessible through staff travel and lifestyle.
6. Night stopping with potentially 12 young females
7. Cant get away from the boredom I agree, at least at the end of a 10 hour shift you dont have to worry about coming back to work in 12 hours for another 4 sectors.
8. Command time is a disadvantage I agree, however salary makes up for it.
9. Pension pot at the end of a career significantly higher than staying with a low-cost.
10. Staff travel - I dont think anyone at a low cost would argue that BA's could be worse.
I am 30 and close to command at easyJet, but for me it is a no-brainer to join BA on the 777.
1. Maybe 1 weekend in 4 (will be knackered anyway)
2. First year BA take home pay will be around 500pounds more per month than SFO at easyJet. About 12 years Captains salary at low cost will equal first 12 years salary as FO with BA cumulatively.
3. Ditto, however I think BA's holiday system is fairer where if one year you don't get what you want, then next year you are more likely to.
4. LGW/LHR - some hassle I agree but commuting available if Long Haul
5. Not everyone has family, many have family abroad which may be more accessible through staff travel and lifestyle.
6. Night stopping with potentially 12 young females
7. Cant get away from the boredom I agree, at least at the end of a 10 hour shift you dont have to worry about coming back to work in 12 hours for another 4 sectors.
8. Command time is a disadvantage I agree, however salary makes up for it.
9. Pension pot at the end of a career significantly higher than staying with a low-cost.
10. Staff travel - I dont think anyone at a low cost would argue that BA's could be worse.
I am 30 and close to command at easyJet, but for me it is a no-brainer to join BA on the 777.
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So what is it then: can you expect to fly only east coast and middle east in your first year on the B777, or does the blank bidding system offer some special treats now and then?
I am starting on the B777 in September: how may more shiny fresh FO's will join AFTER me? (I am getting a grip on this seniority thing
)
I know, one shouldn't ask more than one question at a time to be efficient, but I can't help myself: what does reserve duty mean at BA - is that surviveable for a commuter?
Cheerful greetz
I am starting on the B777 in September: how may more shiny fresh FO's will join AFTER me? (I am getting a grip on this seniority thing
)I know, one shouldn't ask more than one question at a time to be efficient, but I can't help myself: what does reserve duty mean at BA - is that surviveable for a commuter?
Cheerful greetz
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Don't knock the East coast or the Gulf. When it comes down to it, you'll have 12 - 18 months 'honeymoon period' where everything is new and interesting. After which, you may well have moved someway up the seniority list. For example, Newark is not highly regarded (for many reasons) but it's only 45 mins on the train to Manhattan! Every destination is what YOU make of it.
On the B777 a block of reserve is 28 days! However:
The first 7 days are a week of FDOs (Fixed Days Off) Think of them as an extra weeks leave! Because even the most junior can bid for (and get) pretty well any stby block, the ability to select these extra weeks 'leave' can be really useful!
The following 21 days you need to be able to reach the car park (note - 'the car park'!) in 2 hours. Quite often, when there is work to be covered it will be allocated the day before, by around 1800. So you have plenty of notice. It is unusual, though not unheard of, to be asked to come to work 'immediately' from home standby.
If you fly a trip from stby, you are guaranteed (I believe) one local day off, before being liable once again for stby. At least once in your block, you will be allocated a long break (minimum 2 days off) Can't recall if this could happen down route!
All in all, it's probably not quite as bad as it sounds. Just as well really since I imagine you might be required to do 3 or so of these per annum in your early years.
Some senior trips also, fall down to reserve, so you can go to places you might not otherwise see.
Enjoy
On the B777 a block of reserve is 28 days! However:
The first 7 days are a week of FDOs (Fixed Days Off) Think of them as an extra weeks leave! Because even the most junior can bid for (and get) pretty well any stby block, the ability to select these extra weeks 'leave' can be really useful!
The following 21 days you need to be able to reach the car park (note - 'the car park'!) in 2 hours. Quite often, when there is work to be covered it will be allocated the day before, by around 1800. So you have plenty of notice. It is unusual, though not unheard of, to be asked to come to work 'immediately' from home standby.
If you fly a trip from stby, you are guaranteed (I believe) one local day off, before being liable once again for stby. At least once in your block, you will be allocated a long break (minimum 2 days off) Can't recall if this could happen down route!
All in all, it's probably not quite as bad as it sounds. Just as well really since I imagine you might be required to do 3 or so of these per annum in your early years.
Some senior trips also, fall down to reserve, so you can go to places you might not otherwise see.
Enjoy
Couldonlyaffordafiver
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If you fly a trip from stby, you are guaranteed (I believe) one local day off, before being liable once again for stby. At least once in your block, you will be allocated a long break (minimum 2 days off) Can't recall if this could happen down route!
Tandemrotor,
Are you coming back down south or staying up north?
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Flying Fiona
BA are not exclusive in your list of ten gripes. In fact, I would say that you could complain about the same gripes in virtually any long haul lifestyle. Most people do not end up flying long haul unless they want to be there, there are plenty of short haul jobs for those with experience. Therefore, go with your eyes wide open. Plenty of shorthaul people fly weekends; have a wage drop; are not based where they want to be (consequently are away from their families); have a pension calculated on a reduced salary, which after all is now the norm & have unconfirmed staff travel. To say these are the evils of long haul is misleading, there is plenty going on in short haul! You may get an earlier command in Easy, but it will probably not be at your base of choice, oh time away from home again, will involve commuting & few weekends off. I could also go on, but I too have enjoyed the Cup Final (as much as you could with a somewhat mediocre performance), and I fly long haul which leads me to the positives.
1. Average of 3 to 4 trips per month
2. Live where you like, even if it is in France!
3. Experience the delights of commuting 3 times a month rather than 5 times a week
4. Spend time off where you fly & yes with the right attitude see a bit of the world
5. Some people you meet on trips you may actually enjoy spending time with. Oh & have time to enjoy a legal beer
6. LGW or LHR, who cares, live where you want
7. Time with your family when you are off
8. Staff travel that works 9 times out of 10 at vastly reduced rates
9. Boredom with a fantastic view & after all you are being paid for it
At the end of the day if you want time at home, weekends off & time with your family I would suggest to anyone that a career in aviation is not where you should look. As far as I am concerned I have friends who have a far worse lifestyle. Commuting to a windowless office in a big city to spend time with the same people that you know you don't like whilst earning a vastly reduced salary with a boss that resembles David Brent is far from fun.
Long haul........yeah!
All spelling mistakes Cup Final Vodka induced.
BA are not exclusive in your list of ten gripes. In fact, I would say that you could complain about the same gripes in virtually any long haul lifestyle. Most people do not end up flying long haul unless they want to be there, there are plenty of short haul jobs for those with experience. Therefore, go with your eyes wide open. Plenty of shorthaul people fly weekends; have a wage drop; are not based where they want to be (consequently are away from their families); have a pension calculated on a reduced salary, which after all is now the norm & have unconfirmed staff travel. To say these are the evils of long haul is misleading, there is plenty going on in short haul! You may get an earlier command in Easy, but it will probably not be at your base of choice, oh time away from home again, will involve commuting & few weekends off. I could also go on, but I too have enjoyed the Cup Final (as much as you could with a somewhat mediocre performance), and I fly long haul which leads me to the positives.
1. Average of 3 to 4 trips per month
2. Live where you like, even if it is in France!
3. Experience the delights of commuting 3 times a month rather than 5 times a week
4. Spend time off where you fly & yes with the right attitude see a bit of the world
5. Some people you meet on trips you may actually enjoy spending time with. Oh & have time to enjoy a legal beer
6. LGW or LHR, who cares, live where you want
7. Time with your family when you are off
8. Staff travel that works 9 times out of 10 at vastly reduced rates
9. Boredom with a fantastic view & after all you are being paid for it
At the end of the day if you want time at home, weekends off & time with your family I would suggest to anyone that a career in aviation is not where you should look. As far as I am concerned I have friends who have a far worse lifestyle. Commuting to a windowless office in a big city to spend time with the same people that you know you don't like whilst earning a vastly reduced salary with a boss that resembles David Brent is far from fun.
Long haul........yeah!
All spelling mistakes Cup Final Vodka induced.