Emirates, is it really so bad, your views?

[Stu Bigzorst]

I was really enjoying reading this thread, but it looks like the original poster deleted her first post and hence the thread.

Am I allowed to quote????


KarranJDC
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Emirates; is it so very bad really- your views?
Hi guys, I am not a pilot (and a female manager in Emirates to boot), so I hope you don't mind me posting on your web-site...

I have read much of the content on here with great interest and would like to ask 'do pilots feel a part of the team within an airline, or do some, as rumour has it, feel they are the airline'? and 'if not, what would motivate you to feel more team orientated and committed'?

You see in Emirates, and all companies, front line customer service is paramount and you guys, with the odd exception, do a really great job, but so do many others. Let me tell you, the little guys who work for us in the airport earn about AED2,000 PCM (about GBP300) and for those not in Dubia, the cost of living here is, I feel on par with London. These guys deal daily with long shifts, very rude customers and in most cases a lengthy 2 to 3 hr round journey to work daily, dreadful accomodation (2 to a room working opposing shifts) and for peanuts.

Yes, they have not had the training and do not have the responsibility et al that you guys very clearly have but they play an important role to; I am just asking that some of you consider the plight of others.

I would also ask you to consider managers in Emirates who do not have the luxury of escaping the beaurocracy, petty politics et al that you guys are able to. To boot, we do not enjoy the pay and benefits that are afforded to you. If we were not here, you would not be paid, have no housing, have no planes to fly and indeed have no customers to transport.

Yes guys, you are all very much appreciated by most of us, sometimes this is not articulates appropriately, but hey do consider others and ensure you are all team members!

Your views

KarranJDC




ZQA297/30
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Sounds like Emirates is paying ground staff sweatshop rates. How can BA/LH/etc compete when 90% of the workforce is working for 1/5 of what Europeans work for?
I don't suppose the passengers care, they just want the best deal for the money.
And please, don't tell MOL or he will want to hire them all at Ryanair.




typhoonpilot
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quote:
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If we were not here, you would not be paid, have no housing, have no planes to fly and indeed have no customers to transport.
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This is going to be fun

TP




radnav
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A poor, overused and quite frankly pathetic thread subject. This sort of subject matter has been done to death with just about every airline including Emirates.

Group hug and cuddle. Let us all hold hands and go down together.



Shake
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JDC

There was a time when at least you were made to feel a part of something before becoming just another part.

Those days are gone.

As for being part of a team, that has got to be a joke. 'Team EK' has effectively left the pilots on the outside looking in. What sort of 'team' treats its 'players' in the way EK does?

As I remember, the last 'team talk' we had (over a season ago) we were told in no uncertain terms what the management though of us and how easily replaced we could be. NOT that simple though now is it? Not getting enough of the right players in sufficient numbers like they thought.

Quote: 'I would also ask you to consider managers in Emirates who do not have the luxury of escaping the beaurocracy, petty politics et al that you guys are able to'. Now I know you are joking. 90% of our working days are spent dodging the same dung you have to and a bit more.

I appreciate that we are all underpaid and overworked. However, Team EK would rather us organise a free transfer to another team rather than to pay us any more.

I would have once proudly worn EKs shirt for the rest of my career, now it really doesn't matter....they're just another team...a team unfortunately looking at relegation...walk on, walk on...


[Last edited by Shake on 4th March 2005 at 12:40]

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Vorsicht
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If you have in fact been reading this website, why are you asking the question?

The answer is already out there!!!!!




KarranJDC
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Hi guys and thanks for comments..good, bad or childish!

Voricht...the views of pilots on this site are not consistent, hence the Q's. In any case, pilots complain about not being excluded without in some cases stating the underlying cause. In some cases it could be the sheep scenario! We all know that most pilots (as with other professionals) are not so shallow to site 'money' as the main or only issue! At lease MOST of us realise this and see the pilot community as by definition intelligent both in terms of intellect and emotions.... Pity you did not see fit to state the cause of any such disatisfaction you may have as opposed to bashing someone who can be bothered to try and understand and feed into addressing the issue! I guess your response highlights some of the challenges faced. And if you bash those who ask, dont moan when you are not asked and things are done to you and not with you!

Radnav...then you have no issues in this respect; hurray, one happy bunny!

Typhoonpilot, suggest you please put your comments and quotes in context!

Shake...thanks for constructive and adult comments! May not agree with all of them but much of what you say appears to holds water.

I guess you cant please all of the people all of the time; do some just like to moan whilst others are trying, behind the scenes to take some action.

Oh and thanks to all those who sent me comments privately; pilots complain that no one listens and they are concerned about articulating views to management or speaking up in public and going against the flow...the fact that some people on this site want to communicate their views confidentially should tell you all something?




Shake
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Ok, here's some construction:

Provide an effective forum, perhaps some kind of pilot council (non-management/non-union), where pilots concerns can be aired in strict confidence (no video/audio) without fear of retribution. A forum organised by pilots for pilots where the views given can then be presented to management in a constructive, more diplomatic manner; the results of which are presented back to the pilots.

I am sure that there is reason on both sides. This would provide a buffer between the pilots and the management; creating a chance to build up much needed trust and respect whilst also dealing with issues constructively and openly in a combined effort to deal with salient issues and move forward instead of treading water.

What are the chances? My guess is that any attempt to present any kind of uniform approach would never leave these pages.

JDC: We all have similar concerns which need to be addressed, some more urgent than others. I guess you haven't visited this forum that often. If you had you should get the picture that most have given up on the idea of any constructive change in the 'Team' ethic of EK. Most have the hope that the market will eventually turn and force EK to address the key issues. Pilots are not turning up for interviews or accepting job offers. Some are leaving. Perhaps the tide is turning...I hope so.


[Last edited by Shake on 4th March 2005 at 15:37]


Vorsicht
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JDC

So why would you think that the replies to your thread would be any more consistent.

We have dozens of nationalities, who have come to Dubai for dozens of reasons. Some are happy some are bitterly dissapointed. Hence the range of comments.

Unfortunately the company does not provide any realistic forum for addressing the concerns of its workforce, be it baggage handlers or pilots, so Pprune is all we have.

EK pilots have long considered Pprune as the only way to air our grievances. I find it hilarious that it now appears that management are now seeing Pprune as a realistic way to try and communicate.

That pretty well sums up our problems. EFFECTIVE COMMUNICATION. Or the lack of it. And before you take the usual fall back of how fantastic emirates has been at embracing technology, my point is that all the communication in EK is one way. I assume that is the same for every department, not just flight ops. As long as management continues with the attitude of "if i want your opinion, I'll tell you what it is" then this company is doomed to mediocracy in the long term.

I have taken my concerns personally to my managers, and they have been duly ignored. I won't do it again. It has been made perfectly clear to the pilot body that if they don't like it, they can leave. It has always been thus. Some individuals have been lucky enough to take them up on that offer.

My comments here are generally for my amusement only, not anyone elses. I cannot see any benefit from getting into an intelligent discussion with you or anyone else on Pprune because it will never make a difference.

Having said that. Post your name, position and staff number. If you are indeed someone that can make a difference and actually give a toss, then i would suggest you will get more correspondence than you might imagine. But as long as you are hiding behind a pseudonym, like the rest of us here, you can't hope to extract too much serious discussion.

If you think you can make a difference, here's some advice. Suggest to your management colleagues that they establish a body that represents the pilot group (not the usual management lackeys) that has the companies blessing and is invited to attend all managment meetings associated with conditions of employment.

No, I didn't think so.

Good Luck


[Last edited by Vorsicht on 4th March 2005 at 16:08]


turtleneck
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JDC.To give you a very blunt answer: No, things ARE NOT so bad at Emirates. But they have turned worse, deliberately, instigated by those poor managers who apparently don’t have the luxury to escape their self-created bureaucreacy snakepit. THIS downturn will backfire, as a matter of fact it has already started to do so. What ALREADY IS bad, is the despicable attitude of these same managers, especially towards pilots. It’s certainly a airline thing, just as it is a local phenomenon. It will unfortunately only change once the s*** hits the fan. THAT on the other hand is a managerial thing, pathetic Q’s from whatever decoy thereof only delays the remedy: Pilots treated and payed correctly have always been cheaper than if exploited and kicked around.

And a bit more....... (still quoting from the deleted thread)




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stuck-in-the-sand
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A reply from stuck-in-the-sand\'s wife
OK JDC,

My husband read your post and just walked away shaking his head... So, yes, this is the pilot\'s wife responding.

After reading your opening, I must say that I\'m sure there are a few guys flying here who DO mind you using their forum for this kind of lame "be a team player speech" - and since you asked, YES life at EK is pretty dismal. Not just for the guys flying the line (who incidentally spend most of their time in Dubai either asleep or zombie-like), but for the families who live here also! Many of us gave up careers, moved our children and followed our husbands around the globe for them to pursue their flying gig with Emirates. Are they valued by management? NO. Are they respected for the decades they have devoted to this industry? NO. Are they paid a reasonable industry standard salary for the job they do? NO. Are their work conditions constantly changing for the worse? YES. So, how is it possible for these guys to feel part of any sort of TEAM? Yeah, maybe the TEAM of screwed again by Emirates!

As for your comment on the "little guys" that make so little... Well, it\'s brutal that an airline like Emirates that makes record profits annually takes even worse advantage of their "little guys". But...is that my husband\'s fault? Or any of the other pilots who fly here? Can the pilots fix this? NO, NO and NO. Instead of voicing this on the pilot forum perhaps you should take this up with your supervisor. You seem to have quite a loud voice for what\'s right and wrong.

This forum exists because there needs to be a way to communicate the injustices that exist here - and there are many. If Emirates management doesn\'t like it, then perhaps they should find some PEOPLE MANAGERS who have a clue.

[scroggs]

Provide an effective forum, perhaps some kind of pilot council (non-management/non-union), where pilots concerns can be aired in strict confidence (no video/audio) without fear of retribution. A forum organised by pilots for pilots where the views given can then be presented to management in a constructive, more diplomatic manner; the results of which are presented back to the pilots.

There is no reason why Emirates cannot have a private forum here at Pprune, as many other airlines do, if one or two of you can be persuaded to moderate it for the benefit of all of you (and not to use it as a stage for your own views!).

Contact admin for more information if you wish to go down this route.

[Shake]

Thanks Stu, this almost got away.

Scroggs: Private the forum maybe, confidential it will not be. It has been tried before and still posters prefered the anonimity of the public forums.

Paranoid? It pays to be here.

[Yarpy]

A couple of years ago I applied to Emirates for a First Officers position. Recently the company approached me for an interview. I called a friend of mine who is a Captain with the company and was shocked to find that he had resigned.

The issue, foremost, was lifestyle. Excessive and fatiguing rostering had ruined the job for him.

Quite simply, until Emirates addresses this problem and reduces the pilots flying hours to a level they accept, the airline will be riddled with problems.

Tired and exhausted crews will hate the airline and will put potential applicants off.

I wouldn't touch the airline with the long end of the proverbial barge pole.

KarranJDC: Please could you answer this question: Is Emirates prepared to reduce the pilots flying hours?

[Stu Bigzorst]

The same happened to me. I calculated that over a 5 year period, (so taking into account time to command), I would take a 46% pay cut.

No thank you!

[dorset_don]

Emirates; is it so very bad really- your views?

House, all bills paid ??
Education Allowance ???
Family medical care ????
Maids can have concessional travel too ??????
Limo service to and from work ????????
10 weeks profit share I believe last year ?????????
Oh, a very decent tax free salary ????????????
and the rest ....

Nah, what a crap outfit to work for !! Whose deluded round here? I must be friggin barmey to tell the truth when you can read all this drizzle ....working for a living, thought that was normal! Go get a reality check.

It would be nice to enjoy some of what you moaners get.

[Stu Bigzorst]

Dorset Don,

Was that aimed at me?

easyJet FO: £3000 (take home). Emirates £2400.
easyJet TTC 3000 hours, Emirates 6000.

Unless you want to retire in a tent in the UK, you need to keep your house/mortgage here, so the free accom is no additional benefit. And when I last looked, health and education were free in the UK.

Hilariously, when you get your command at Emirates, you'll be on just £3400. Compare that to easyJet, Ryanair or in fact any half decent UK airline and you'll wonder why anyone would want to go and play in the sand. Unless you want to escape from your family, that is....

Or have I missed something?

[superpilut]

OK dorset, then you pack your suitcases and say goodbye to everything familiar to you and sit in the sand.
These secondary joys are merely there to attract people IMO, otherwise no one would volunarily leave his culture, country and family behind..
Just my €0.02...

[Oilhead]

I attended a meeting not long during which the Director of Safety for one of the GUlf airlines was explaining that the pilot shortage at his airline was so critical that they were routinely pairing Captains with Captains, and that that in turn was presenting new problems for them. The competition for pilots between the major Gulf airlines (Etihad, Emirates, Gulf etc and some others) is so intense that certain airlines amongst those mentioned are seen as second or third choice.

OH

[Dropp the Pilot]

Oh, Emirates is pretty horrible all right, don't let anyone fool you.

They continued to pay my full salary without interruption after the 9/11 crisis.

When my last child was born we asked if it would be Ok to have the birth in my home country. Sure, they said, just bring us the bills. When I did the money was paid to the last cent within seven days without a quibble. Bastards.

Last year I had six weeks leave on four different continents. Mortifying.

To add insult to injury, I look at the provident fund and see that I only managed to contribute $104,000 USD towards my retirement over the last twelve months.

Will someone please help me? Where is my union when I need help?

Oh, heinous, heinous capitalism.......

[millerscourt]

DTP

Nothing special about having your baby in home country during your leave entitlement.

6 weeks leave pa is nothing special either and how many continents you wish to buy tickets for is also nothing special.

Wow USD $104,000 into provident fund in one year!!?? Now that is special. That is surely more than your annual salary before any school fees or accommodation allowance are added on. Please explain. Looking at Emirates Website I fail to see how this figure is arrived at.

Also please explain why on 8th Feb on Far East you enquired about ANA or JAL and who to contact.

[Oceanic]

He he he, if you bother to read his profile methinks there is something of the Walter Mitty 'bout dtp.

[Mistah Kurtz]

Dropp The Pilot, I see you're registered from "Cloud Cuckoo Land", says it all

$104000 in 12 months, you must be in a radically different provident fund from EVERY other Emirates pilot.

To take another of your wildly rose-tinted views, alot of guys whose wives have fallen pregnant within two years of coming out to Dubai OR senior guys who have been here years but have ONLY been married less than two years have had to pay for all maternity costs. WHERE IS THE SENSE IN THAT? Extraordinary penny pinching

[donpizmeov]

millerscourt,

I do have to apologise for Drop the pilot. Seems he gets a bit confused with money. Think he meant to say he put away DHS104000...that would equal about $US28260....or $US2355 per month. That would almost match up with his claim of $us16200 in one month of which $us2200 went into the fund.
It is nice when the school fees are refunded and make a months pay look normal (would guess it also included a housing allowance!). The 104000 sounds so much better than 28260 doesn't it! Maybe size does matter to this fella. I am guessing he wears a very big watch!
Hope this amount of saving is enough for the high flyer to retire on!!!!

Don

[radnav]

Poor old Dropp the Plot .

Obviously still hurting over his recent rejection .
Still it does at least seem that this little fantasy world you have created around and about yourself has helped you to accept that for YOU it just maybe won't get any better.
By the way you forgot to add that the only reason EK were happy to pay your Babies Birthing costs back home is because it is much cheaper than here in Dubai.....like everything else here in Dubai, it costs a small fortune to have babies.

Good luck with edited.


As for poor dorset don , you poor unappreciated, undervalued and unhappy battler. Hope you soon get whats coming to you and what you deserve. SMNCs hey you've got to love them.... such fun folk.

Happy Everything.

[Dropp the Pilot]

I should be surprised that the two of you can't read but then most major religions teach that spiritual dysfunction will eventually reveal itself as physical dysfunction. Any chance you used to work for Air Canada? Their motto of "we're not happy until you're not happy" would have made it a nice environment for the both of you.

In any case it is us dollars (is that sufficiently legible?) and we should move on to the February pay which was $15962 of which $8755 ended up in the provident fund.

As before, I offer to post Feb and March paystubs showing net payable on the bulletin board in CBC if, subsequent to your viewing of them you admit to so-doing and forever stop posting your peevish, dyspeptic, self-pitying BS here.

[donpizmeov]

Such agro....seems 6 weeks leave is not enough for you DTP.

Guess if you have done quite a few more than ten yrs, with TRI, Housing allowance, and ERP you might even be right!

Don

edited to change number of years

[maxy101]

Dropp the Pilot I should imagine that if everyone in Emirates was earning, or had the potential to be earning that kind of salary, then there wouldn't be any complaints. However....

[caubrobro]

Emirates...the real deal ?

I've never seen so many bad comments about Emirates before.....well, being a recent promoted Captain(A321) in Asia,and with a usd 7.500 salary on my pocket, I'm really not considering EZ as my next company.
Can any F/O tells me how it is the company and the eviromment ?
Would I make the right move ?
Thanks

[Shake]

If you've seen all the comments, what more do you need to know?

See the 'Emirates, is it really so bad, your views?' thread below and then pop on over to the Middle East Forum.

The answers are out there...