RHODES-SANTORINI incidents?
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OXOGEKAS: if I should or should not have been on the jump seat is a question apart: during that time I was with the Eurocontrol Experimental Center in Paris, so I might perahps know something about ATC, the crew knowing that kindly let me in as have done some Lufthansa crews as well. That's something that might help us understand the other side of things.
The question is why the crew still exhibited that kind of behaviour. It is an absolutely true story, nothing exagerated, unfortunately.
think-rate:
Insulting other people is not really constructive either I guess.
Concerning badly designed sids/stars, consider the bad airsapce shape in athens when rwy 21 is in use, airplanes are making the tour of attica when arriving from the north and the poor controllers have to pass all the arrivals through a very narrow airspace and turn them on final just before TANAGRA MTMA, I do not know if it is the militaries fault that they are not granting this urgently required airspace in the north of LGAV, unnecessary increase in ATCOs workload. This could be so much easier if aircraft could join the ILS from two sides and not only the east.
The question is why the crew still exhibited that kind of behaviour. It is an absolutely true story, nothing exagerated, unfortunately.
think-rate:
Insulting other people is not really constructive either I guess.
Concerning badly designed sids/stars, consider the bad airsapce shape in athens when rwy 21 is in use, airplanes are making the tour of attica when arriving from the north and the poor controllers have to pass all the arrivals through a very narrow airspace and turn them on final just before TANAGRA MTMA, I do not know if it is the militaries fault that they are not granting this urgently required airspace in the north of LGAV, unnecessary increase in ATCOs workload. This could be so much easier if aircraft could join the ILS from two sides and not only the east.
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This is the "rumours" section, so please excuse me for posting this as what I know is second and third hand information only, so do treat it as such.
I, too, heard that the guy in the Santorini incident has unfortunately but inevitably been dismissed. The general sentiment was that he is/was a genuinely excellent pilot/captain, well-trained, quite experienced in his RJ100, well moderated and with sound CRM principles. It was perhaps one of those unlucky moments in life that we all dread when things just go bent - and stay this way all the way, one bad call after another. A bad call trying to land high and fast (press-on-itis, otherwise known as target fixation), well down the rwy past the hooking wire, barely missing the ditch at the end, thanks to the FO (who was perhaps not "assertive" enough in his "go-around" suggestion?). A second bad call, trying to conceal the incident when the tyres where in bad need of attention was perhaps what did it.
Aegean pilots urgently need a union, that's for sure. Aegean management seems to be moving in the right direction in terms of training and safety, while trying to barely keep the airline in the green at the same time. It was announced today that a closer cooperation with Lufthansa is at hand (not exactly code-sharing but not far-off either being very close to becomming a Star Alliance member) and I am sure that Lufthansa, has a pretty good idea about Aegean's safety records and performance limitations (being somewhat involved in its 737 training, one way or another, and pilot-exchange schemes).
Still: that leaves something to be desired in terms of SOPs and procedures (re: LGTS CATIII ILS landing in the distant past and LGRP landing with southerly winds more recently, for example).
OxoGekas
Yes, Aegean pilots do urgently need a union; Provided of course that Olympic pilots stop acting like snubbing wimps and acknowledge the existence of their Aegean colleagues and help them by teaching them how to stop feeling terrorised by their upper management and show them the way to get organised. Professional pilots in Greece need a JOINT union. That's my 2cents and I am ready for what should come at me next.
Greek-Freak
I apologise if I came across as insultive. I could write a 50-page long -amateur- diatribe on what I think is wrong with aviation in Greece, but I am convinced that what you describe is not it. And your attitude did not help you much either.
Having to run 120-odd nm, crawling below FL180 when arriving to LGAV from the west/southwest when landing on 21L is bad for a lot of things but has nothing to do with "badly designed" SIDs/STARs. Fortunately, that rarely happens. Granted that Tanagra MTMA to the north, by reserving up to 8000ft (13000ft sometimes) IS a nuisance; not because it prevents aircraft from being vectored for 21L/R straight-in from the west, though: the hilltops and the MVAs to the north-west make sure of that and a/c would still be vectored from the east for rwy21.
I am sure any old-hand in this forum that has been flying into Greece over a period, can verify that while things are far from "laid back" and "jolly-good-show-old-chap" stage, they have greatly improved to an acceptable level. Greek-Freak, PM me and I can perhaps arrange for a visit for you to Athina Approach, so that you can verify that for yourself. You will definitely at least verify that sigmets, pireps and volmets are all where they should be and that controllers regularly vector their aircraft high and fast within the TMA past NEMES, well inside KEA vor.
As I said, a lot of things are not right within Athina FIR and the HCAAA which constructive criticism would go some way towards modifying.
Professional pilots in Greek airlines: pls do show some constructive comaradarie!!!
TR
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ThinkRate! ThinkRate! Don't Think!
I, too, heard that the guy in the Santorini incident has unfortunately but inevitably been dismissed. The general sentiment was that he is/was a genuinely excellent pilot/captain, well-trained, quite experienced in his RJ100, well moderated and with sound CRM principles. It was perhaps one of those unlucky moments in life that we all dread when things just go bent - and stay this way all the way, one bad call after another. A bad call trying to land high and fast (press-on-itis, otherwise known as target fixation), well down the rwy past the hooking wire, barely missing the ditch at the end, thanks to the FO (who was perhaps not "assertive" enough in his "go-around" suggestion?). A second bad call, trying to conceal the incident when the tyres where in bad need of attention was perhaps what did it.
Aegean pilots urgently need a union, that's for sure. Aegean management seems to be moving in the right direction in terms of training and safety, while trying to barely keep the airline in the green at the same time. It was announced today that a closer cooperation with Lufthansa is at hand (not exactly code-sharing but not far-off either being very close to becomming a Star Alliance member) and I am sure that Lufthansa, has a pretty good idea about Aegean's safety records and performance limitations (being somewhat involved in its 737 training, one way or another, and pilot-exchange schemes).
Still: that leaves something to be desired in terms of SOPs and procedures (re: LGTS CATIII ILS landing in the distant past and LGRP landing with southerly winds more recently, for example).
OxoGekas
Yes, Aegean pilots do urgently need a union; Provided of course that Olympic pilots stop acting like snubbing wimps and acknowledge the existence of their Aegean colleagues and help them by teaching them how to stop feeling terrorised by their upper management and show them the way to get organised. Professional pilots in Greece need a JOINT union. That's my 2cents and I am ready for what should come at me next.
Greek-Freak
I apologise if I came across as insultive. I could write a 50-page long -amateur- diatribe on what I think is wrong with aviation in Greece, but I am convinced that what you describe is not it. And your attitude did not help you much either.
Having to run 120-odd nm, crawling below FL180 when arriving to LGAV from the west/southwest when landing on 21L is bad for a lot of things but has nothing to do with "badly designed" SIDs/STARs. Fortunately, that rarely happens. Granted that Tanagra MTMA to the north, by reserving up to 8000ft (13000ft sometimes) IS a nuisance; not because it prevents aircraft from being vectored for 21L/R straight-in from the west, though: the hilltops and the MVAs to the north-west make sure of that and a/c would still be vectored from the east for rwy21.
I am sure any old-hand in this forum that has been flying into Greece over a period, can verify that while things are far from "laid back" and "jolly-good-show-old-chap" stage, they have greatly improved to an acceptable level. Greek-Freak, PM me and I can perhaps arrange for a visit for you to Athina Approach, so that you can verify that for yourself. You will definitely at least verify that sigmets, pireps and volmets are all where they should be and that controllers regularly vector their aircraft high and fast within the TMA past NEMES, well inside KEA vor.
As I said, a lot of things are not right within Athina FIR and the HCAAA which constructive criticism would go some way towards modifying.
Professional pilots in Greek airlines: pls do show some constructive comaradarie!!!
TR
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ThinkRate! ThinkRate! Don't Think!
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Think rate:
1) I think you’ve got your directions wrong there mate. It is the southerlies that cause the problem in Heraklion, not the northerlies. I would definitely prefer a 360/35 than a 180/20 !!!
2) Don’t make the mistake to seriously believe that because two (or 10) airllines are codesharing, means that they are sharing training practices, SOPs , manuals etc etc. Codesharing is purely a bussiness weapon , nothing else. An Aegean captain will not have to be proficiently checked by a …German TRE (examiner) because Aegean and Lufthansa or United codeshare!
I do agree that things in Greece are much better than they used to be, but that’s just normal. Things could only get better.
Greece should be making double steps to catch up.
In Spain for example, ALL mainland and island resort airports have ILS (one rwy at least). I am referring to airports that have a quarter of Kerkira’s traffic and about half of Ko’s traffic.
(Before someone comes up with the “Greece’s mountainous terrain” excuse that I’ve heard over and over again, I should remind you that Spain is very very mountainous as well!)
Same applies to the HORRIBLE and DISGRACEFUL state of the majority of runways and taxiways, where by reaching Vr in LGKR nobody really has control of the aircraft due to the …severe turbulence!!! Small islands like Ibiza, in Spain, have runways similar to LGAV !
Greek airport lighting, runway and taxyway markings are barely acceptable for an EU country (especially for one that has been an EU member for 25 years and has millions of tourists visiting)
These problems are really serious. Complicated Stars and Sids are not as important I think.
My belief is that in Spain, they managed to find a better use for the EU funds (….or the other way around, depending which way you prefer to see this
)
Regards
1) I think you’ve got your directions wrong there mate. It is the southerlies that cause the problem in Heraklion, not the northerlies. I would definitely prefer a 360/35 than a 180/20 !!!
2) Don’t make the mistake to seriously believe that because two (or 10) airllines are codesharing, means that they are sharing training practices, SOPs , manuals etc etc. Codesharing is purely a bussiness weapon , nothing else. An Aegean captain will not have to be proficiently checked by a …German TRE (examiner) because Aegean and Lufthansa or United codeshare!
I do agree that things in Greece are much better than they used to be, but that’s just normal. Things could only get better.
Greece should be making double steps to catch up.
In Spain for example, ALL mainland and island resort airports have ILS (one rwy at least). I am referring to airports that have a quarter of Kerkira’s traffic and about half of Ko’s traffic.
(Before someone comes up with the “Greece’s mountainous terrain” excuse that I’ve heard over and over again, I should remind you that Spain is very very mountainous as well!)
Same applies to the HORRIBLE and DISGRACEFUL state of the majority of runways and taxiways, where by reaching Vr in LGKR nobody really has control of the aircraft due to the …severe turbulence!!! Small islands like Ibiza, in Spain, have runways similar to LGAV !
Greek airport lighting, runway and taxyway markings are barely acceptable for an EU country (especially for one that has been an EU member for 25 years and has millions of tourists visiting)
These problems are really serious. Complicated Stars and Sids are not as important I think.
My belief is that in Spain, they managed to find a better use for the EU funds (….or the other way around, depending which way you prefer to see this
)Regards
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ĹXPA is the OA pilot union, established some decades ago!
As far as I know, EXPA is "open" to all professional pilots in Greece.
AEGEAN pilots are afraid of joining a union, because the policy of the "civilized" AEGEAN management, is to eliminate any kind of union (pilots or ground workers).They will dismiss at onece 2-3 unlikly pilots, in order to "teach" the others! It is like a dictature. Extremelly bad payroll, like euro 3400 for a 737 captain! Even lower than of an Albanian pilot!
The management is extra! They have a very good PR policy, opposing is the bad PR policy of OA.....
Nobody is blaming the AEGEAN pilots. All of us are close friends. Greek pilot "community" is very small, and all pilots know each other.
The "blame" is against the dictatorilly management of the "civilized".
For the "greek freak" I must tell him, that to occupy the jump-seat, you must be a pilot current on type!
This is the policy on all greek airlines.
About the new LGAV , I have excecuted most of my "go-arounds", in the past 4 years! Thanks, but the place is the worst!
TO ALL AEGEAN PILOTS!
Organize !
ESTABLISH IN ONE NIGHT, YOUR UNION!
Aviator's life in Greece, will change in one night!
TRY IT, and for shure, you will have the support of EXPA and OA pilots!
Just to say, that with JAR\'s FCL, in 1-2 years, pilots will be very rare!
Cost and new procedures, of getting a FCL, will discourage many young men and wommen, of being pilots!
As far as I know, EXPA is "open" to all professional pilots in Greece.
AEGEAN pilots are afraid of joining a union, because the policy of the "civilized" AEGEAN management, is to eliminate any kind of union (pilots or ground workers).They will dismiss at onece 2-3 unlikly pilots, in order to "teach" the others! It is like a dictature. Extremelly bad payroll, like euro 3400 for a 737 captain! Even lower than of an Albanian pilot!
The management is extra! They have a very good PR policy, opposing is the bad PR policy of OA.....
Nobody is blaming the AEGEAN pilots. All of us are close friends. Greek pilot "community" is very small, and all pilots know each other.
The "blame" is against the dictatorilly management of the "civilized".
For the "greek freak" I must tell him, that to occupy the jump-seat, you must be a pilot current on type!
This is the policy on all greek airlines.
About the new LGAV , I have excecuted most of my "go-arounds", in the past 4 years! Thanks, but the place is the worst!
TO ALL AEGEAN PILOTS!
Organize !
ESTABLISH IN ONE NIGHT, YOUR UNION!
Aviator's life in Greece, will change in one night!
TRY IT, and for shure, you will have the support of EXPA and OA pilots!
Just to say, that with JAR\'s FCL, in 1-2 years, pilots will be very rare!
Cost and new procedures, of getting a FCL, will discourage many young men and wommen, of being pilots!
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Hi Gonso,
1) Re: LGIR; you are probably right; the southerlies may pose more of a problem, especially when 09 is in use. However, a mere 6kts from the north would be enough to create some turbulence over the threshold though (rwy27) - and strong northerlies are the prevailing winds.
2) Re: Lufthansa-Aegean cooperation; pls read my post again, more carefully this time. I suggested nothing of the sort. I merely pointed out that, based on their cooperation so far on various fields and in various forms, Lufthansa probably do have a pretty good idea of Aegean's SOPs, operational practices and safety records.
You are absolutely right in that a lot of improvements are needed around Greece in terms of navaids, ILS and airport infrastructure.
Severe turbulence at Corfu, though???
I have never heard that one before (and neither has anyone else I know) 
. What kind of wind caused that? And... loosing control of the aeroplane at Vr??? What the... 
Oh, I do see it now... I have just re-read your post and you were just being sarcastic about the bumpy state of the runway there! 
Any good-will reader of your post will still struggle to ignore your strangely strong (to put it mildly) choice of words. For the sake of aviation though, please calm down and try to be constructive. Good for Spain for making their skies a better and safer place for everyone to fly in, I do hope Greece catches up fast.
[edited to make room for Gonso's heavily ironic comments about the bumpy runway at Kerkyra...]
TR
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ThinkRate! ThinkRate! Don't Think!
1) Re: LGIR; you are probably right; the southerlies may pose more of a problem, especially when 09 is in use. However, a mere 6kts from the north would be enough to create some turbulence over the threshold though (rwy27) - and strong northerlies are the prevailing winds.
2) Re: Lufthansa-Aegean cooperation; pls read my post again, more carefully this time. I suggested nothing of the sort. I merely pointed out that, based on their cooperation so far on various fields and in various forms, Lufthansa probably do have a pretty good idea of Aegean's SOPs, operational practices and safety records.
You are absolutely right in that a lot of improvements are needed around Greece in terms of navaids, ILS and airport infrastructure.
Severe turbulence at Corfu, though???
I have never heard that one before (and neither has anyone else I know) . What kind of wind caused that? And... loosing control of the aeroplane at Vr??? What the... Oh, I do see it now... I have just re-read your post and you were just being sarcastic about the bumpy state of the runway there! Any good-will reader of your post will still struggle to ignore your strangely strong (to put it mildly) choice of words. For the sake of aviation though, please calm down and try to be constructive. Good for Spain for making their skies a better and safer place for everyone to fly in, I do hope Greece catches up fast.
[edited to make room for Gonso's heavily ironic comments about the bumpy runway at Kerkyra...]
TR
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ThinkRate! ThinkRate! Don't Think!
Last edited by ThinkRate; 25th Mar 2005 at 18:36.
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To all the guys that used to fly the old Shorts 360's for Avionic I hope that you are all doing ok.
I know that some of you went on to Agean.
Cheers for now and I still miss Athens.
Frank P is still down in Puerto Rico doing ok as far as I know.
I know that some of you went on to Agean.
Cheers for now and I still miss Athens.
Frank P is still down in Puerto Rico doing ok as far as I know.
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Think Rate,
I hate to have to reply to your post again, I don't mean to be rude with you or anybody else.
All I was saying is that, in this thread, there were plenty of comments that were making a big issue out of stars and sids in Greek airspace and especially ATH. I wanted to emphasize the fact that there are much more important problems than ....wide vectoring! Does that mean I am not ...constructive? I thought I was just that by talking about the real problems that need fixing.
I didn't have to re-read your peply about Aegean-LH relationship, because you repeated something similar on your most recent post.
I repeat ...NO. A codeshare or in this case a potential or partial codesharing , has nothing to do with flight operations and...SOPs. It is purely the work of "suits". Obviously LH would not have a relationship of any sort with an airline with poor safety record. Aegean is far from a poor safety record airline. BUT, that does not mean that Aegean's practises have had the blessing of Lufthansa!!! That's exactly what the pilot management in Aegean would love to see us believe. Especially if the early comments in this thread are true (about how pilot management pushes pilots to the limits and ocassionaly beyond the limits)
Regards
I hate to have to reply to your post again, I don't mean to be rude with you or anybody else.
All I was saying is that, in this thread, there were plenty of comments that were making a big issue out of stars and sids in Greek airspace and especially ATH. I wanted to emphasize the fact that there are much more important problems than ....wide vectoring! Does that mean I am not ...constructive? I thought I was just that by talking about the real problems that need fixing.
I didn't have to re-read your peply about Aegean-LH relationship, because you repeated something similar on your most recent post.
I merely pointed out that, based on their cooperation so far on various fields and in various forms, Lufthansa probably do have a pretty good idea of Aegean's SOPs, operational practices and safety records.
Regards
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OXOGEKAS: as far as i know,EXPA is open to all pro pilots in Greece
Many efforts in the past for a union for all Greek pilots but all had no correspondence for cooperation from EXPA.Only union of OLYMPIC AVIATION showed interest and finally created one and that was because they feared that if they loose their job they still could control things.That was back in winter 2003.After they were under the new scheme of OLYMPIC they let this union inactive.
It is also true that EXPA let many of his pilots to loose their jobs under an "EARLY RETIREMENT" plan and today after almost 15 months they haven't receive any money yet. Sorry guys but now we see that all your efforts and comments now for a union is only because you are feeling that your job security is degrading again.
Yoy are talking about dictatorship management in AEGEAN. All i know is that they turned the airline from loss to profit and that nobody is working there against his will.When you are talking about management practises and phonecalls i remember the chief pilot of 734 fleet in Olympic a few years ago and also the FOD.Just a sense of fear among the pilots not to have to deal with them.
A 737 captain in AEGEAN takes 3400 Euros (net after taxes) being in the airline the most for 5 years.After 15 years he would receive 4500 according to date of empoyment bonus.It is almost the same in OLYMPIC isn't it? So please compare equal things.But anyhow i think that they prefare a lower salary in a wealthy airline than the opposite.As i also recall it is the OLYMPIC ATR pilots who they can't take their annual leave for the past 10 months because the management,against the law, simply don't let them do so. Nice democratic rules.
To conclude THERE IS a union in AEGEAN and none got fired but almost nobody wants to participate because as tought from unions' history in Greece they act only for the benefit of the few and not for the whole.
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Tetra NG, I think that you dont know, that a few months ago, EXPA changed completely the "rules". Ex MACEDONIAN pilots, are now members of EXPA, as well as some ex Aviation.
According to what you mentioned, for the last year "retirement" programm, this was done by the ex-socialist (PASOK) gov,(LIERS and LAMOGIA), and the "secret" was, that the pilots should take their money, AS SOON AS OA WAS SOLD! OA, as you know, is under the way, of privatization, and I am sure, that they are going to get their money.
AEGEAN has loses of approx. $80 millions! How the hell, are they saying that they have gains??????Hahaha!!! The same way they are "AIRLINE OF THE YEAR 2004-2005?" Can you tell us, what kind of award is this?
About, the former OA chief pilot of fleet B737/300-400, captain S, he was the best of all chief pilots, in OA. He was strict and fair!
As a former captain 737, I can say that this man, was the right solution.......
By the way, AEGEAN has now, chief pilot, an ex OA captain!
They are lucky, because this man, is EXTRA!
Something else! OA dissmised some years ago, a copilot, who was employed by AEGEAN, and became captain, after some months. Is this true? Do you know WHY this pilot was dissmised from OA?
If you know, can you inform the others also?
AEGEAN pilots, DO NOT HAVE A UNION. And they MUST have one, if they want to work like others do!
I will tell you, after a month, what will rise, in Greek sky.
If OA will privatize, I think that AEGEAN's days are few.
In the other hand, if OA's privatization process, becomes negative, then OA will cease operations within the next few months.
So, we will wait, and see! YPOMONI!
According to what you mentioned, for the last year "retirement" programm, this was done by the ex-socialist (PASOK) gov,(LIERS and LAMOGIA), and the "secret" was, that the pilots should take their money, AS SOON AS OA WAS SOLD! OA, as you know, is under the way, of privatization, and I am sure, that they are going to get their money.
AEGEAN has loses of approx. $80 millions! How the hell, are they saying that they have gains??????Hahaha!!! The same way they are "AIRLINE OF THE YEAR 2004-2005?" Can you tell us, what kind of award is this?
About, the former OA chief pilot of fleet B737/300-400, captain S, he was the best of all chief pilots, in OA. He was strict and fair!
As a former captain 737, I can say that this man, was the right solution.......
By the way, AEGEAN has now, chief pilot, an ex OA captain!
They are lucky, because this man, is EXTRA!
Something else! OA dissmised some years ago, a copilot, who was employed by AEGEAN, and became captain, after some months. Is this true? Do you know WHY this pilot was dissmised from OA?
If you know, can you inform the others also?
AEGEAN pilots, DO NOT HAVE A UNION. And they MUST have one, if they want to work like others do!
I will tell you, after a month, what will rise, in Greek sky.
If OA will privatize, I think that AEGEAN's days are few.
In the other hand, if OA's privatization process, becomes negative, then OA will cease operations within the next few months.
So, we will wait, and see! YPOMONI!
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spierpoint jones
They do NOT have a union!
And they MUST establish one!
tetra ng,
As I understand, you are CM1 with AEGEAN.
What I suggest, is, that you try with your coleques, to establish a union. And then, you will realise, that many things will change, from one day to another. Many of you, they are ready....but afraid of "rufianous". The union, can be established in one night. And the next mornig, send a letter to your ceo, telling him that you all, are union members! If he escapes a heart-attack, then everything will change.
Good luck!
They do NOT have a union!
And they MUST establish one!
tetra ng,
As I understand, you are CM1 with AEGEAN.
What I suggest, is, that you try with your coleques, to establish a union. And then, you will realise, that many things will change, from one day to another. Many of you, they are ready....but afraid of "rufianous". The union, can be established in one night. And the next mornig, send a letter to your ceo, telling him that you all, are union members! If he escapes a heart-attack, then everything will change.
Good luck!
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To bring this conversation near the end, can you oxogekas explain why you want so badly AEGEAN to close? Your "objective" opinion is clearly a personal obssession.
It is clear that you cannot understand what profit means, is something unknown in OA.But again if things go badly for AEGEAN they will close and the other day they will open as AEGEANII as OA did against all laws. The difference that you don't respect is that in AEE is the money of the owners but in OA is the money of all of us who are paying taxes.
If in AEE they have one misjudgement about one captain can you tell us how many they have in OA,aviation and Macedonian? The pilot of LGSR incident is home now and AEE's management made sure that he won't fly on one of their aeroplanes ever again.The one who broke the 727 at LGTS is still flying with OA isn't he?
Because as it seems it's difficult for you to understand,i said that they have a union ,not a pilot union.Read the post again. And although a union exists no one got fired.
I was happy when every pilot in Greece had a job with OA A3 Cronus Air Greece Axon and before with Apollo Venus etc. As i understand you had a champagne opened when Axon closed and you have one in the fridge for HellasJet or AEGEAN.But no one can blame you, you are a typical OA example.
I m not waiting for something so i don't need to be patient.You seem anxious of when Aegean will close.Why don't you just enjoy your retirement that your unionmates of EXPA decided?
It is clear that you cannot understand what profit means, is something unknown in OA.But again if things go badly for AEGEAN they will close and the other day they will open as AEGEANII as OA did against all laws. The difference that you don't respect is that in AEE is the money of the owners but in OA is the money of all of us who are paying taxes.
If in AEE they have one misjudgement about one captain can you tell us how many they have in OA,aviation and Macedonian? The pilot of LGSR incident is home now and AEE's management made sure that he won't fly on one of their aeroplanes ever again.The one who broke the 727 at LGTS is still flying with OA isn't he?
Because as it seems it's difficult for you to understand,i said that they have a union ,not a pilot union.Read the post again. And although a union exists no one got fired.
I was happy when every pilot in Greece had a job with OA A3 Cronus Air Greece Axon and before with Apollo Venus etc. As i understand you had a champagne opened when Axon closed and you have one in the fridge for HellasJet or AEGEAN.But no one can blame you, you are a typical OA example.
I m not waiting for something so i don't need to be patient.You seem anxious of when Aegean will close.Why don't you just enjoy your retirement that your unionmates of EXPA decided?
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TETRANG,
As an ex-AXXON pilot that you are, and now AEGEAN, let me tell you that you are a typical guy, that was not employed from OA, as pilot. So , that is the reason of your opinion.
You didn't tell us, why was the guy dissmised from OA, who later was promoted as captain, within AEGEAN!
Was he doing "yonga" in the toilets of EGLL? (!!!! )
Tetrang, I am now flying for a big - big airline in Europe, and I bet, that AEGEAN, will cease operations, when OA will obtain a new owner......Do you think that a 50 years history of OA, can be "deleted" from a 5 years of AEGEAN?
Or do you think that the "seagals", are stronger than the "six olympic circles"?
Are you compairing ONASIS with your ceo?
No way!
And let me tell you this in greek....
"Tous roufianous kaneis den xonepse"!
And your "team", entered the data room of OA, only for collecting info, which will be used by you, as evidences, against OA, at the EEC.....Because, you dont have the money to buy OA. You dont even have the money to save yourselves!
Amen!
As an ex-AXXON pilot that you are, and now AEGEAN, let me tell you that you are a typical guy, that was not employed from OA, as pilot. So , that is the reason of your opinion.
You didn't tell us, why was the guy dissmised from OA, who later was promoted as captain, within AEGEAN!
Was he doing "yonga" in the toilets of EGLL? (!!!!
)Tetrang, I am now flying for a big - big airline in Europe, and I bet, that AEGEAN, will cease operations, when OA will obtain a new owner......Do you think that a 50 years history of OA, can be "deleted" from a 5 years of AEGEAN?
Or do you think that the "seagals", are stronger than the "six olympic circles"?
Are you compairing ONASIS with your ceo?
No way!
And let me tell you this in greek....
"Tous roufianous kaneis den xonepse"!
And your "team", entered the data room of OA, only for collecting info, which will be used by you, as evidences, against OA, at the EEC.....Because, you dont have the money to buy OA. You dont even have the money to save yourselves!
Amen!
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Oxegekas: that thing was in the late 90ies where those regulations were handled in a more lax manner than after 9/11, as I said other european crews kindly let me in as well in several occasions when I showed the Eurocontrol ID at boarding, if It's prohibited in greece you can bet that it is prohibited 10 times in the rest of Europe.
Anyway I did not get however to what you refer when you mention the many go-arounds at LGAV, bad weaether/wind or bad vectors?
Think-Rate: Thanks, for getting more constructive, let me note however, that MVAs are not necessarily MSAs, you can lower MSAs by installing another app radar at an appropriate place. I have been talking with an athens ATCo about this airspace problem and he fully agreed with me that a western downwind for 21 would be possible and a great relief. Moreover, more space to the north would enable the construction of SIDs which allow for simultaneous take-offs from 03R and 03L and avoid congestions and unnecessary capacity limitations when there are e.g. lots of deps and a few arrs as in the early morning hours between 0530-0700. But you and others are right that there other problems which are moore serious and that GA in Greece is a trist story apart.
In what concerns controllres I never said that all of them are bad, especially those who managed the en-route traffic back in the non-radar years and the hero delivery-ground-tower-approach-departure all-in-one controllers at some of the smaller busy island airports.
Most of them are very good professionals and constantly fighting against bad managment/equipment. It's just that it is like everywhere in Greece, some people hold positions and also sit in the tower because some aunt, mother, uncle intervened and got them in there. It's those black sheep that ruin the efforts and filotimo (good-will) of the others.
Anyway I did not get however to what you refer when you mention the many go-arounds at LGAV, bad weaether/wind or bad vectors?
Think-Rate: Thanks, for getting more constructive, let me note however, that MVAs are not necessarily MSAs, you can lower MSAs by installing another app radar at an appropriate place. I have been talking with an athens ATCo about this airspace problem and he fully agreed with me that a western downwind for 21 would be possible and a great relief. Moreover, more space to the north would enable the construction of SIDs which allow for simultaneous take-offs from 03R and 03L and avoid congestions and unnecessary capacity limitations when there are e.g. lots of deps and a few arrs as in the early morning hours between 0530-0700. But you and others are right that there other problems which are moore serious and that GA in Greece is a trist story apart.
In what concerns controllres I never said that all of them are bad, especially those who managed the en-route traffic back in the non-radar years and the hero delivery-ground-tower-approach-departure all-in-one controllers at some of the smaller busy island airports.
Most of them are very good professionals and constantly fighting against bad managment/equipment. It's just that it is like everywhere in Greece, some people hold positions and also sit in the tower because some aunt, mother, uncle intervened and got them in there. It's those black sheep that ruin the efforts and filotimo (good-will) of the others.
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GREEK FREAK, entering a cocpit, is forbiden, even if you are a pilot, "out" of duty. In exceptions, pilots working in the same company, are allowed to enter into the cocpit, after captain's permission.
Door must always be LOCKED, and FAA inspectors often check this, during a flight, with their "spies", who travell at the same plane, without knowing them! In one occasion, a captain was "fined", with some 5.000 euros, because he let his door unlocked, and a person to step into the cocpit.
As a controller, you must know these new rules, after 911!
Anyway, many captains are permitting the entrance, with their responsibillity.
About the "go-arounds" at LGAV......Due to severe turbulence and windshear. Once because the runway was 100% covered with snow and the metreport was ...........! (at the first year of LGAV operation).
Radar vectors, in most cases are OK, and controllers (with extremelly few exceptions) are very good professionals, and helpfull.
Door must always be LOCKED, and FAA inspectors often check this, during a flight, with their "spies", who travell at the same plane, without knowing them! In one occasion, a captain was "fined", with some 5.000 euros, because he let his door unlocked, and a person to step into the cocpit.
As a controller, you must know these new rules, after 911!
Anyway, many captains are permitting the entrance, with their responsibillity.
About the "go-arounds" at LGAV......Due to severe turbulence and windshear. Once because the runway was 100% covered with snow and the metreport was ...........! (at the first year of LGAV operation).
Radar vectors, in most cases are OK, and controllers (with extremelly few exceptions) are very good professionals, and helpfull.
