Life in BA as a new, low-houred FO.
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Sussex
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
CM
Far be it for me to in any way criticise your feelings or views expressed on this thread - after all there is a saying "You cannot judge a man until you have walked a mile in his shoes". It is true, there will always be aspects of any job that will be less than fulfillling. However, I find your comment "Flying ain't that hard with the right training, it's the other stuff that ***** up your day..." very pertinent. Maybe you should accept comments from others who have followed this path very differently from you - trying to pay your mortgage (or rent if you sold your house in the name of aviation), trying to find the money to feed your children and finish your IR, trying to study for ATPL exams during the day and work at night etc etc.. This is not a sob story so no violins, just fact. Maybe then if you are privileged to sit where you do each day, the things that are annoying to you may not be such a big deal to another.
With respect
Far be it for me to in any way criticise your feelings or views expressed on this thread - after all there is a saying "You cannot judge a man until you have walked a mile in his shoes". It is true, there will always be aspects of any job that will be less than fulfillling. However, I find your comment "Flying ain't that hard with the right training, it's the other stuff that ***** up your day..." very pertinent. Maybe you should accept comments from others who have followed this path very differently from you - trying to pay your mortgage (or rent if you sold your house in the name of aviation), trying to find the money to feed your children and finish your IR, trying to study for ATPL exams during the day and work at night etc etc.. This is not a sob story so no violins, just fact. Maybe then if you are privileged to sit where you do each day, the things that are annoying to you may not be such a big deal to another.
With respect
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Sunny East Sussex
Age: 49
Posts: 264
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It takes a spread of all types in a company. BA needs a good mix of ages, backgrounds and experience, to keep a good flow through the fleets.
Surely it is more important that the guys and gals we are flying with are dedicated and good at their jobs.
BA recruits the best of all kinds(cadets, other airlines, self sponsored and ex-mil). Some people want to be management, some want to instruct, some want to fly til they drop. A good balance is healthy.
Back to the original thread, surely the seniority system means life in BA for a new low hour FO is the same as for a new experienced FO. Other than the cadet pay, is there any other diference?
Surely it is more important that the guys and gals we are flying with are dedicated and good at their jobs.
BA recruits the best of all kinds(cadets, other airlines, self sponsored and ex-mil). Some people want to be management, some want to instruct, some want to fly til they drop. A good balance is healthy.
Back to the original thread, surely the seniority system means life in BA for a new low hour FO is the same as for a new experienced FO. Other than the cadet pay, is there any other diference?
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 1,691
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
With respect spiritwings, you said this is not a sob story and proceeded to tell us all one. Once again, the title of this thread is 'Life in BA as a new, low-houred FO', not 'How hard did you have it getting your ATPL'. Answering 'everything is fabulous and were all so pleased to be here free of debt courtesy of benevolent BA that we could never find a negative point' would be an utterly useless response, as well as being untrue. You, like others, seem to be working on the implicit assumption that all BA cadets are young, free, single, wealthy, fresh faced individuals straight out of university with no debts or responsibilities. That conveniently overlooks the people who had sizeable debts from funding their own flying training prior to BA, the people who had mortgages to pay or children to support whilst they gambled on 18 months without pay, the people who barely had a penny to scratch their arse with before the course started yet still had to last the distance off their own resources, the people who gave up lucrative, hard to access careers with little prospect of return, the people who tried to stick with wives or fiancees when they were told they were going to the USA or Australia for a year at a months notice. I know it doesn't fit your preferred stereotype but you don't have a monopoly on sacrifice. Now can people please stop sidetracking this thread with hard luck stories so people can get the information they want and not the opinions they don't.
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Abroad
Posts: 520
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just a note to all those wannabees that do pass the selection and end up in the rhs of a BA airbus......Don't say you weren't warned. CM may come across as ungrateful...(I'm sure he/she isn't) , but all of what he has said is true. Just ask yourself if you want to work for a company where you are despised/envied/shafted/ignored. If so, then welcolme aboard....
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 378
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just an observation. you understand, from someone who retired after 35 years in BA
There seems with these youngsters that they are looking for more than there is in the job.
I will explain.
I remember flying with a very capable FO on the 767 who had been in the airline for four years. He was disenchanted and in his words “needed new experiences and challenges”.
In that time he had…
Joined straight onto a 2 crew aircraft, the 757,
Then flown within Europe the Brand New 767,
Then saw his routes expand into the Middle East
And then finally across the pond to the USA
Lots of new experiences and challenges there I would suggest.
I suggested that my career had been obviously short of these new experiences and challenges that he so craved…
The first twenty years on the three crew Trident.
The first fourteen as a FO doing every other sector in the P3 seat
Being denied a Tristar course as “I was within a year of command”. (This “one year to command” stretched to six!)
Finally as a new Captain spent the first three years (with the introduction of Bidline) on Permanent Standby . One rostered trip a year and that was my route-check.
Achieved a record (I think) of five 0540Z Paris’s in a row off standby.
Flew my first “new” aircraft (under a year old) after 26 years.
Compare that with this four year FO who wanted more!
My suggestion to today’s young FO’s…
Get a good interest outside BA, don’t look within for your “experiences and challenges!
After all it is only a job
There seems with these youngsters that they are looking for more than there is in the job.
I will explain.
I remember flying with a very capable FO on the 767 who had been in the airline for four years. He was disenchanted and in his words “needed new experiences and challenges”.
In that time he had…
Joined straight onto a 2 crew aircraft, the 757,
Then flown within Europe the Brand New 767,
Then saw his routes expand into the Middle East
And then finally across the pond to the USA
Lots of new experiences and challenges there I would suggest.
I suggested that my career had been obviously short of these new experiences and challenges that he so craved…
The first twenty years on the three crew Trident.
The first fourteen as a FO doing every other sector in the P3 seat
Being denied a Tristar course as “I was within a year of command”. (This “one year to command” stretched to six!)
Finally as a new Captain spent the first three years (with the introduction of Bidline) on Permanent Standby . One rostered trip a year and that was my route-check.
Achieved a record (I think) of five 0540Z Paris’s in a row off standby.
Flew my first “new” aircraft (under a year old) after 26 years.
Compare that with this four year FO who wanted more!
My suggestion to today’s young FO’s…
Get a good interest outside BA, don’t look within for your “experiences and challenges!
After all it is only a job
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Abroad
Posts: 520
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Good observation woodpecker I would offer that observation to our wannabees. It is only a job, not the be all and end all of life. Society has moved on, along with the need for companies/businesses to start treating employees with respect. They need to start valueing them, as other companies do. Not retort, well, if you don't like it, leave. Invariably, the person saying that has feathered their own nest, and has a VERY nice package. An example would be an SM grade Flt Ops manager with the 20 odd % uplift in salary, company car, free petrol, mobile phone and laptop. Plus the ability to extract "a jolly" once a month, and, of course , every weekend at home. Very annoying when the same people turn around and begrudge it of the rest of us. Some of us cadets/DEP's have done very well out of BA, and are very grateful at being given our chance. Some of us even enjoy the flying. HOWEVER, to all wannabees, do not join BA for the flying. As CM mentionede above, that is a small part of the job. The rest of it is dragging suitcases between T1 and T4, at the bus drivers convenience , and "fire fighting", all the while apologising for the disaster area that is BA/BAA at LHR. One of the reasons "nigels" have a certain reputation in the industry, I believe, is we have to find a way to deal with all this bull****. That may manifest itself in indifference or aloofness. Rest assured, we all started out the same as you, and when we take the uniform off, are "normal" people at home. You need a protective shell in this company or it will destroy you. Unless you have a naturally thick skin.....
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: London
Age: 59
Posts: 205
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Studi
I dont know what its like in Germany but the CAA here despite all their faults test a self sponsored chap in exactly the same way as a cadet.
On a self sponsored intergarted course the progress tests are exactly the same as a cadet one in fact all tests are to the same standard. The difference being who pays for the course
Granted that if a sponsored cadet makes the same mistake twice then you face the possibility of being chucked off the course.
Back to the original question 2bon2b i dont konw i dont work for BA but what ever you do dont loose that love of flying or fall in with the bitter crowd. By the way all airlines have them, we do, just enjoy the ride and face each challenge with gusto and enthusiasm and good luck.
Studi
Ps. If you think i was being rude wait till you're having a new hole ripped open by a training captain for missing a call while line training then you might say that good old flaps comments weren't so appaling. Good luck.
But my experience with official checks with the licensing authorities is that these checks are far more easy to pass then the many progress checks during a sponsorship, where all of your actions are compared to clearly defined procedures, speed tables, power settings, call outs, briefings
On a self sponsored intergarted course the progress tests are exactly the same as a cadet one in fact all tests are to the same standard. The difference being who pays for the course
Granted that if a sponsored cadet makes the same mistake twice then you face the possibility of being chucked off the course.
Back to the original question 2bon2b i dont konw i dont work for BA but what ever you do dont loose that love of flying or fall in with the bitter crowd. By the way all airlines have them, we do, just enjoy the ride and face each challenge with gusto and enthusiasm and good luck.
Studi
Ps. If you think i was being rude wait till you're having a new hole ripped open by a training captain for missing a call while line training then you might say that good old flaps comments weren't so appaling. Good luck.
Couldonlyaffordafiver
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: The Twilight Zone near 30W
Posts: 1,934
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Back to the original thread, surely the seniority system means life in BA for a new low hour FO is the same as for a new experienced FO. Other than the cadet pay, is there any other difference?
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Sunny East Sussex
Age: 49
Posts: 264
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So a low hour FO will be on Airbus or 737 for the first 5 years. Do most then apply for MH/LH, or do they stay SH?
Most of the gripes on this thread seem to apply to SH. Do the same apply on the long fleets?
ZFT rating means that the airline does not have to give you handling training on an actual aircraft (v expensive). You just complete type rating in the sim, then line training.
Most of the gripes on this thread seem to apply to SH. Do the same apply on the long fleets?
ZFT rating means that the airline does not have to give you handling training on an actual aircraft (v expensive). You just complete type rating in the sim, then line training.
Couldonlyaffordafiver
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: The Twilight Zone near 30W
Posts: 1,934
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So a low hour FO will be on Airbus or 737 for the first 5 years. Do most then apply for MH/LH, or do they stay SH?
Most of the gripes on this thread seem to apply to SH. Do the same apply on the long fleets?
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Horsham, West Sussex
Age: 43
Posts: 128
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What are the required hours for a ZFT rating?
Thanks
Anyone know how long people are waiting in the short haul holding pool for? I remember seeing something about the holding pool but cant find it.
Do they offer any choice between the bus and the 73 or are you allocated?
Thanks
Anyone know how long people are waiting in the short haul holding pool for? I remember seeing something about the holding pool but cant find it.
Do they offer any choice between the bus and the 73 or are you allocated?
Couldonlyaffordafiver
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: The Twilight Zone near 30W
Posts: 1,934
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Leo8,
ZFT training requires (I think) 1200 hours of relevant experience (ie. big jet). Not absolutely certain but definitely over 1000 hours.
ZFT training requires (I think) 1200 hours of relevant experience (ie. big jet). Not absolutely certain but definitely over 1000 hours.
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 133
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Fraid not old boy - ZFT just requires 100 line sectors on the appropriate jet. Hence the requirement when BA asked for Type Rated guys for either 100 line sectors or I think 500 hours on type.
Couldonlyaffordafiver
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: The Twilight Zone near 30W
Posts: 1,934
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I stand corrected in that case. Although when I converted from the 737 to the Airbus, I had about 1500 hours and did ZFT whilst one of the other guys had about a 1000 hours and wasn't allowed. Where we were, that equated to about 1000 sectors for me and about 700 sectors for him.
