Life in BA as a new, low-houred FO.
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Carnage old chap
Ignorance is bliss. But i am not ignortant to the cadet scheme lets have a look at it as i remember it.
You see an ad for BA sponsorship and if your a real avaiator you think great i'll apply for that because i get to fly some funky a/c all across the world.
If your the management type and fall for the hype you think yeah i'll give that a go because it sounds interesting.
You jump through several hoops and get in. No one twists your arm or puts you in a head lock and makes you sign the contract but you are still convinced that the management career is ther waiting for you to wisk you closer to the board.
You then get sent of to Oxford or the such like and never have to pay for a thing. Lets have a look at some of the things i had to pay for while i did my course.
1) Accomodation
2) Food (including beer)
3) Exam fees
4) Medical
5) Licence issue
And a whole load of other small items that add up to alot of money.
From the above what did you have to shell out? Oh yeah the beer BA wont pay for you to get tanked up but they did give you an allowance while you were having you bottom wiped by the college and the BA minders who were there for you welfare.
After a gruelling course you passed and were then shepearded to Cranebank and given a type rating on a BIG jet and cruelly reminded that you will be on a reduced wage while the company tried to claw back some of its investment in you, at this stage probably in the region of £80-100,000.
But even this rude offering by BA is still in the region of £25-30,000 plus flight pay say another £5-8,000 so you start of on around 50% more than a Turbo prop FO who more than likely has paid for his own CAP509 course (£40-60,000) instructed on £10,000 pa (more likely to be less) for a few years.
[
Then after years of REALLY hard work gets a job for a small TP who has no computers to break down has to do his own plogs source his own weather/notams wait just as long for his bus or crew transport has to help clean the a/c suffer just as many delays as you less than 30min turnarounds work just a many weekends and early mornings as you. When thing go wrong doesn't have the back up that you do so has to make more decisions in a day that you do in a week and still come into work whistling because he's happy that he/she has a job and has had to struggle to get it.
QUOTE]Hmmmm...... anyone know how much interest I'd have to pay at the going rate on a 55K loan paid off over 5 years ???? Bet its a bit more than another 5K.....[/QUOTE]
Imagine this is sold my house to get to were you are and i would do it again to get to where i am now.
You as a cadet have no concept of what its like to really pay for flying as opposed to taking a reduced yet still sizeable wage fro being given a course.
I dare you to leave BA and last six months in an outfit where you dont have the BA machine behind you to mask the reallity of the job.
From the rest of this post it seems that SOME of the ex cadets who lets face it didn't join to be pilots but managers with a glamourous career attached to it have come to realise that you will never be a manager per se and are board with flying. Well move on find a career that your happy with and let some of the others have a chance.
I know many whos still love it and working for BA we also have some retired BA skippers working for us and they would give their nuts to get back after seeing whats its like on the other side.
Not once in any of your posts have you said that despite everyting you enjoy even a small portion of the flying and that just goes to prove much about the recruitment policy of BA.
Go on admit it you never really joined to be a pilot did you?
All said and done Carnage you need to move on and by the way i consider a x-wind landing as a challenge and test of my skills because i enjoy flying and all the crap that goes with it is part of the job live with it or move on.
I wish you the very best of luck in finding your happines because i've found mine.
Great Exp....
I hope your just trying a wind up but if you do mean it then consider this. All the people that work in an office have a life out side of it because office work is boring and demoralising and i know because i did it for years. Pilots have other hobbies to plug the gap until they fly again.
Ignorance is bliss. But i am not ignortant to the cadet scheme lets have a look at it as i remember it.
You see an ad for BA sponsorship and if your a real avaiator you think great i'll apply for that because i get to fly some funky a/c all across the world.
If your the management type and fall for the hype you think yeah i'll give that a go because it sounds interesting.
You jump through several hoops and get in. No one twists your arm or puts you in a head lock and makes you sign the contract but you are still convinced that the management career is ther waiting for you to wisk you closer to the board.
You then get sent of to Oxford or the such like and never have to pay for a thing. Lets have a look at some of the things i had to pay for while i did my course.
1) Accomodation
2) Food (including beer)
3) Exam fees
4) Medical
5) Licence issue
And a whole load of other small items that add up to alot of money.
From the above what did you have to shell out? Oh yeah the beer BA wont pay for you to get tanked up but they did give you an allowance while you were having you bottom wiped by the college and the BA minders who were there for you welfare.
After a gruelling course you passed and were then shepearded to Cranebank and given a type rating on a BIG jet and cruelly reminded that you will be on a reduced wage while the company tried to claw back some of its investment in you, at this stage probably in the region of £80-100,000.
But even this rude offering by BA is still in the region of £25-30,000 plus flight pay say another £5-8,000 so you start of on around 50% more than a Turbo prop FO who more than likely has paid for his own CAP509 course (£40-60,000) instructed on £10,000 pa (more likely to be less) for a few years.
[
Then after years of REALLY hard work gets a job for a small TP who has no computers to break down has to do his own plogs source his own weather/notams wait just as long for his bus or crew transport has to help clean the a/c suffer just as many delays as you less than 30min turnarounds work just a many weekends and early mornings as you. When thing go wrong doesn't have the back up that you do so has to make more decisions in a day that you do in a week and still come into work whistling because he's happy that he/she has a job and has had to struggle to get it.
QUOTE]Hmmmm...... anyone know how much interest I'd have to pay at the going rate on a 55K loan paid off over 5 years ???? Bet its a bit more than another 5K.....[/QUOTE]
Imagine this is sold my house to get to were you are and i would do it again to get to where i am now.
You as a cadet have no concept of what its like to really pay for flying as opposed to taking a reduced yet still sizeable wage fro being given a course.
I dare you to leave BA and last six months in an outfit where you dont have the BA machine behind you to mask the reallity of the job.
From the rest of this post it seems that SOME of the ex cadets who lets face it didn't join to be pilots but managers with a glamourous career attached to it have come to realise that you will never be a manager per se and are board with flying. Well move on find a career that your happy with and let some of the others have a chance.
I know a couple of dedicated enthusiasts who worked there way up through instructing and regional aircraft to a BA command who are currently asking if its still all worth it.
Not once in any of your posts have you said that despite everyting you enjoy even a small portion of the flying and that just goes to prove much about the recruitment policy of BA.
Go on admit it you never really joined to be a pilot did you?
All said and done Carnage you need to move on and by the way i consider a x-wind landing as a challenge and test of my skills because i enjoy flying and all the crap that goes with it is part of the job live with it or move on.
I wish you the very best of luck in finding your happines because i've found mine.
Great Exp....
I hope your just trying a wind up but if you do mean it then consider this. All the people that work in an office have a life out side of it because office work is boring and demoralising and i know because i did it for years. Pilots have other hobbies to plug the gap until they fly again.
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Flaps to 60:
Both you and 'they' have licences - your last post just has jealousy written all over it, but nowhere in CAA licencing nor JARs requires financial struggle to gain the licence. Fair enough you had a tough experience, but give credit where it is due that both you and 'they' hold licences.
The topic was life in BA, not how dare you have an easier existence than I.
How crap would jobs be if nobody ever identified rot at a company of either FTSE level or private limited, allowing all jobs to deteriorate.
The point was not that conditions are better at BA than xyz air, but that certain people in such a large organisation, particularly in management, are unable to identify stress-causing factors that need not be there in a large FTSE-listed plc that can afford to do better.
Both you and 'they' have licences - your last post just has jealousy written all over it, but nowhere in CAA licencing nor JARs requires financial struggle to gain the licence. Fair enough you had a tough experience, but give credit where it is due that both you and 'they' hold licences.
The topic was life in BA, not how dare you have an easier existence than I.
How crap would jobs be if nobody ever identified rot at a company of either FTSE level or private limited, allowing all jobs to deteriorate.
The point was not that conditions are better at BA than xyz air, but that certain people in such a large organisation, particularly in management, are unable to identify stress-causing factors that need not be there in a large FTSE-listed plc that can afford to do better.
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Great Exp....
I'm not an airline pilot and as i said above i cannot understand the daily grind etc. But I have worked for many years, in two different professions
and one thing I do know relates to your last paragraph
"And you all just proved that since hardly one person except Carnage who clearly is one of us anyhow actually was open to listening to an opinion that didn't fit their own mind set. Do I want to work with people like you for the next 25 years of my precious life??? Onwards and upwards me thinks."
If you for one second believe that pilots have a monopoly on that attitude you really, really have one big shock coming your way
I'm not an airline pilot and as i said above i cannot understand the daily grind etc. But I have worked for many years, in two different professions
and one thing I do know relates to your last paragraph
"And you all just proved that since hardly one person except Carnage who clearly is one of us anyhow actually was open to listening to an opinion that didn't fit their own mind set. Do I want to work with people like you for the next 25 years of my precious life??? Onwards and upwards me thinks."
If you for one second believe that pilots have a monopoly on that attitude you really, really have one big shock coming your way
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Most of us cadets have worked extremely hard to gain the qualifications to get the sponsorship in the first place - that probably makes us some of the best qualified people in the business. So we all know there may be more to life - not due to limited life experience; but perhaps due to more expansive education and a variety of options.
The flight deck requires much more than that and you cant be taught man management as easliy as you can the FMS. That comes from years of working with people of different cultures, abilities, sexes and races.
Consider this would i or anybody else want to work with you for 25 years of your precious life with your attitude.
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I think you've rather demonstrated most BA cadets are going to be hated whatever they say because of the green-eyed-monster, born-with-a-silver-spoon-in-their-mouths, had-their-arses-wiped-for-them attitude of people like you.
Edited to add here's a little tip for your superb man-management skills. When you're downroute in a bar somewhere and meet another crew, nobody likes to sit and listen to someone whinge about how hard they had it and how good you've got it. We've heard it all before.
Edited to add here's a little tip for your superb man-management skills. When you're downroute in a bar somewhere and meet another crew, nobody likes to sit and listen to someone whinge about how hard they had it and how good you've got it. We've heard it all before.
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GE
Im not against cadets, look a little further into what im trying to say and that is cadets who join up with no love of flying should be weeded out from the system. These are the management types who replied to the advert in the Times appointment section amongst searches for MD's CEO's COO's etc. I dont care how you got your licence but it seems that cadets moan more than those who went the other ways.
This was a move by BA to try and attract someone who wants a management career with the added "glamour" of being a pilot.
I remember speaking to an EI Capt who just happened to see th ad for cadetships a few years ago and thoght he'd go for it. It was worth noting that the idea of being a pilot had never crossed his mind before and that he was more interested in a career structure!
Once in the "management types" soon realised that along with flying comes a lot of crap as CM listed. Other comments he made shows that he is very dissalusioned with the whole thing. Surely the employment of someone who wants the job warts and all would be a better choice.
I am not jealous of CM or the other cadets infact i have a certain respect for them for jumping through the hoops but as i said earlier no one made you sign the contract so either live by it or move on.
All that CM et al has done is moan and not provide any solution to his problems surely thats what management is all about isn't it .........problem solving.
I take it GE that you are early twenties and never really worked in the real world for long? If im wrong please feel free to correct me. But you previous statements are quite telling. And believe me you will be hated with that i have an education and therfore life choices attitude. A flight deck is somewhere you dont bring you problems be humble and be ready to learn and most of all dont be cocky.
And as for the man management it comes in the form of the person next to you ATC, Cabin Crew, Fuelers, Dispatchers cleaners etc etc they are all professionals in their own right and all deserve respect. Im still learning and you will too but i brought a wealth of experince in with me which makes it a little easier.
CM
I have never whinged about my route to the RHS in fact i would do all again because i consider myself to be lucky where i am, even so low down the evolutionary scale i am genuinely happy and take the ****e that comes with the job face to face. Just remember this there are thousands of people who would happily trade places with you. If you really hate the job that much give them a chance.
Is there any part of your job you like?
Im not against cadets, look a little further into what im trying to say and that is cadets who join up with no love of flying should be weeded out from the system. These are the management types who replied to the advert in the Times appointment section amongst searches for MD's CEO's COO's etc. I dont care how you got your licence but it seems that cadets moan more than those who went the other ways.
This was a move by BA to try and attract someone who wants a management career with the added "glamour" of being a pilot.
I remember speaking to an EI Capt who just happened to see th ad for cadetships a few years ago and thoght he'd go for it. It was worth noting that the idea of being a pilot had never crossed his mind before and that he was more interested in a career structure!
Once in the "management types" soon realised that along with flying comes a lot of crap as CM listed. Other comments he made shows that he is very dissalusioned with the whole thing. Surely the employment of someone who wants the job warts and all would be a better choice.
I am not jealous of CM or the other cadets infact i have a certain respect for them for jumping through the hoops but as i said earlier no one made you sign the contract so either live by it or move on.
All that CM et al has done is moan and not provide any solution to his problems surely thats what management is all about isn't it .........problem solving.
I take it GE that you are early twenties and never really worked in the real world for long? If im wrong please feel free to correct me. But you previous statements are quite telling. And believe me you will be hated with that i have an education and therfore life choices attitude. A flight deck is somewhere you dont bring you problems be humble and be ready to learn and most of all dont be cocky.
And as for the man management it comes in the form of the person next to you ATC, Cabin Crew, Fuelers, Dispatchers cleaners etc etc they are all professionals in their own right and all deserve respect. Im still learning and you will too but i brought a wealth of experince in with me which makes it a little easier.
CM
I have never whinged about my route to the RHS in fact i would do all again because i consider myself to be lucky where i am, even so low down the evolutionary scale i am genuinely happy and take the ****e that comes with the job face to face. Just remember this there are thousands of people who would happily trade places with you. If you really hate the job that much give them a chance.
Is there any part of your job you like?
Couldonlyaffordafiver
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This was a move by BA to try and attract someone who wants a management career with the added "glamour" of being a pilot.
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As CM pointed out, these threads always descend into jealous rants about how easy some have it and how the poster doesn't. The solution proposed by the jealous seems to be to bring everyone down to their level. Why must we always seek to bring everyone to the lowest common denominator? Not exactly a great way to keep this a good profession. Instead of dragging down those with what you percieve to be good airline jobs, aspire instead to get those jobs. Head down, stop complaining and improve yourself. Worked for me.
And remember, a rose tinted view of the world above helps nobody. You can like flying above all else, but a job is still a job.
And remember, a rose tinted view of the world above helps nobody. You can like flying above all else, but a job is still a job.
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Jelly
Your right! and i will.
Carpathia
Maybe i see it as more than just a job.............rightly or wrongly!
CM
Maybe the arse wipeing comment was a touch strong but i still stand by what i believe please prove me wrong. Im looking forward to working for BA (if i get in) it cant be worse than what i put up with now and i still love the "job".
HF
Good to know
GE
Good luck you're going to need it!
Your right! and i will.
Carpathia
Maybe i see it as more than just a job.............rightly or wrongly!
CM
Maybe the arse wipeing comment was a touch strong but i still stand by what i believe please prove me wrong. Im looking forward to working for BA (if i get in) it cant be worse than what i put up with now and i still love the "job".
HF
Good to know
GE
Good luck you're going to need it!
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Oh dear! Where did my generation go wrong? How come we have produced so many useless, robotic, selfish, self centred, egotistic, and perpetually teen-aged young men & women. How come BA can't find people with the "right stuff" to fly their aeroplanes. Are those of us who still have a passion for flying dying out, or is it simply the difference between short and long haul. 
MG Ex BA SEO 11,500 hrs on 707 & 747
MG Ex BA SEO 11,500 hrs on 707 & 747
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Flaps - would you care to point me to the post in which I said I didn't enjoy the job, or that I was personally dissatisfied. I think you assumed too much.
The purpose of the cadet scheme was NOT to recruit managers. Think about the numbers - 800 cadets into BA since the sceme restarted in 1997 - there aren't that many managers in Flight Ops, where are the rest of them going to go? The aim of the scheme was to hire people who had more than just stick and rudder skills. Flying ain't that hard with the right training, handling the other stuff that f**** up your day is the difficult part. BA aimed to hire people who could do that well, not just pole an aircraft round the sky, because dealing with bellicose, unreformed militants who still think the company is a nationalised industry is what you'll spend 80% of your effort on. And if you don't deal with them you won't get to spend 20% of your time on flying. FWIW its worth I don't remember BA advertising in The Times. Cosmo yes, Executive Search no. You seem to have a lot of misconceptions about the type of people who apply and their motivation. If you intend to apply for BA one day you'd be well advised to reconsider that as you may find you're being interviewed by a former cadet.
PS I saw the advert for the cadet scheme in Flight International.
The purpose of the cadet scheme was NOT to recruit managers. Think about the numbers - 800 cadets into BA since the sceme restarted in 1997 - there aren't that many managers in Flight Ops, where are the rest of them going to go? The aim of the scheme was to hire people who had more than just stick and rudder skills. Flying ain't that hard with the right training, handling the other stuff that f**** up your day is the difficult part. BA aimed to hire people who could do that well, not just pole an aircraft round the sky, because dealing with bellicose, unreformed militants who still think the company is a nationalised industry is what you'll spend 80% of your effort on. And if you don't deal with them you won't get to spend 20% of your time on flying. FWIW its worth I don't remember BA advertising in The Times. Cosmo yes, Executive Search no. You seem to have a lot of misconceptions about the type of people who apply and their motivation. If you intend to apply for BA one day you'd be well advised to reconsider that as you may find you're being interviewed by a former cadet.
PS I saw the advert for the cadet scheme in Flight International.
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CM
Your right it wasn't the Times it was the Sunday Times about Nov 1995 or 1996.
I assumed you were dissatified becuase you have not made a possitive comment about your job.
What makes you think that i dont already, but i get on with it and ignore the ****e and enjoy the rest of it without the back up that you have in BA.
Good one! I hope that he or she is not as jaded as you appear to be and is gentle with me!
I again say that i have respect for most cadets for getting through. I have always thought that it is a way for those who may not have the money to have a chance of the job.
GE
Once again you prove my point!
Your right it wasn't the Times it was the Sunday Times about Nov 1995 or 1996.
I assumed you were dissatified becuase you have not made a possitive comment about your job.
because dealing with bellicose, unreformed militants who still think the company is a nationalised industry is what you'll spend 80% of your effort on
If you intend to apply for BA one day you'd be well advised to reconsider that as you may find you're being interviewed by a former cadet.
I again say that i have respect for most cadets for getting through. I have always thought that it is a way for those who may not have the money to have a chance of the job.
GE
Once again you prove my point!
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2beornot2be
My apologies on behalf of a few people who, despite you asking it not to become one, has turned into a slagging match!!
As you probably would have done with the information given here, being people's opinions, take everything here with a pinch of salt. Good question, and one which some BA staff have answered with frankness and openness. I would like to hear more of this and less of I work for a turboprop you're lucky you suck blah....
Come on! What's the point of this forum unless we can share this information? Surely a face-to-face argument with someone in the street would be more satisfying if that's your bag!!
I also do not want to start any arguments, but am just interested in the answer to the question. Thanks to all who have had input from their experiences in BA.
Andy
My apologies on behalf of a few people who, despite you asking it not to become one, has turned into a slagging match!!
As you probably would have done with the information given here, being people's opinions, take everything here with a pinch of salt. Good question, and one which some BA staff have answered with frankness and openness. I would like to hear more of this and less of I work for a turboprop you're lucky you suck blah....
Come on! What's the point of this forum unless we can share this information? Surely a face-to-face argument with someone in the street would be more satisfying if that's your bag!!
I also do not want to start any arguments, but am just interested in the answer to the question. Thanks to all who have had input from their experiences in BA.
Andy
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CM and GE show a bit more appreciation for what they have achieved
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Carnage, liked the post earlier - thanks for input about daily bits and pieces which you can't really ever find about about unless you've done the job.
Question in same vein...What was the first thing that struck you about BA when you joined the company after training (be it line or otherwise)?
Thanks for any reply.. hope you don't mind me asking.
Question in same vein...What was the first thing that struck you about BA when you joined the company after training (be it line or otherwise)?
Thanks for any reply.. hope you don't mind me asking.
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Studi
As usual you go in both feet and land in the cac because you either haven't read or understood my points.......too subtle maybe!
I know that you are a cadet and therefore biased and yes given the cadetship i would have have done it that way.
Now im not going to bother with you until you read my posts from page one and let it tickle the grey matter a bit.
African Dude
You are right.
2bon2b
This is an emotive subject for some and as you can see some including myself fell for it.
This site while brilliant can sometimes bring out the worst in people but never take any of the bad stuff to heart and only listen to what makes sense.
CM
I agree with you but you still dont sound happy with your lot
As usual you go in both feet and land in the cac because you either haven't read or understood my points.......too subtle maybe!
I know that you are a cadet and therefore biased and yes given the cadetship i would have have done it that way.
Now im not going to bother with you until you read my posts from page one and let it tickle the grey matter a bit.
African Dude
You are right.
2bon2b
This is an emotive subject for some and as you can see some including myself fell for it.
This site while brilliant can sometimes bring out the worst in people but never take any of the bad stuff to heart and only listen to what makes sense.
CM
I agree with you but you still dont sound happy with your lot
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A bl00dy great grin is the honest answer to that one. But after that I was struck by the size of the organisation. Its by no means the largest I've worked for but it is perhaps the most disjointed. A lot of the knowledge you pick up about the company you gather almost by osmosis, there's no guide book as to how the place works or who does what. Despite the glitzy front large parts of the company on the operational side are still firmly rooted in the militant 70s and the back office staff are located in a distant world at the other end of the airport where you have no reason (and no security pass) to visit. Essentially you can be a stranger in your own work place and working relationships tend to last only as long this trip then its 'bring on a new bunch'. People don't make friends at work, only acquaintances for the duration of the trip, then you won't see them again for a year. If you can handle that kind of nomadic, slightly isolated existence, then there are some great opportunities here so long as you can put up with some of the previous negatives I mentioned and a whole lot more. If cosy, friendly bases are your thing then BA is definitely not for you.
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Studi
Conversly dear boy have you ever done a flight test knowing that if you do balls it up he may not lend you the money to do it again or if you really muck it up you could be within spitting distance and have to give it all up and still pay the bank manager back £50,000. That is also not a soft ride that you haven't imagined. I have also seen many people give up becuase of no money or couldnt make the grade and chucked it all in but STILL had to pay up.
Now once again i have nothing against cadets even you! Now read this fully before answering.
While I would never argue that being a cadet is very nice financially, do not underestimate the required effort of work and dedication to meet the set standards. The employer pays, so he decides whether you stay in training or not, not your bank manager. I have seen many cadets been checked out in my school. It's not the soft ride you imagine it is.
Now once again i have nothing against cadets even you! Now read this fully before answering.
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Funny old thing, BA apparently only recruit "the best"
Wonder if the FTO's they use(d) for the cadet scheme would agree to that comment?
Desperately jealous that I never got in, but now incredibly glad I didn't.
Wonder if the FTO's they use(d) for the cadet scheme would agree to that comment?
Desperately jealous that I never got in, but now incredibly glad I didn't.