Scandalous Pay
Join Date: Oct 2004
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Quote:
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Shame there is never outrage on these pages for what airport staff get for doing various jobs at airports that keep the aircraft in the air. It makes the pilots appear to be a self centred lot who care about nothing else apart from how much money they can make.
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Pass the can opener.......
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Shame there is never outrage on these pages for what airport staff get for doing various jobs at airports that keep the aircraft in the air. It makes the pilots appear to be a self centred lot who care about nothing else apart from how much money they can make.
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Pass the can opener.......
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Anyone earning less than 10K in the UK would surely be entitled to some kind of state benefit. Pilots on welfare would make an interesting news story, and perhaps the publicity might make the droves of wannabees think again before joining an overcrowded profession.
Supply & demand, market forces yeah, true but there are other economic forces too - ever heard of unions?
It's your industry, it's in your hands, it's your responsibility.
Supply & demand, market forces yeah, true but there are other economic forces too - ever heard of unions?
It's your industry, it's in your hands, it's your responsibility.
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Shame there is never outrage on these pages for what airport staff get for doing various jobs at airports that keep the aircraft in the air.
Do honey truck drivers have to pay for their own training?
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There's another point to be made here. You've been talking about the airlines who are hiring new FO's on subsistence salaries, but there are still quite a few Companies out there with some sense of integrity who are prepared to pay a reasonable starting salary.
The company I work for starts FO's (Turbo-prop) on around £23000. Not a fortune, but at least you can afford some kind of a lifestyle.
There are a few who pay more.
The companies being complained about here may be taking advantage of an opportunity to make more profit on the backs of desperate people who are very anxious to justify all the money they've spent on buying a career. But ultimately these managers are immoral, callous and cynical in their attitudes, and people have long memories!
There will always be the time when these same managers will be asking staff to 'pull out the stops' to save their bacon.
Payback time?
The company I work for starts FO's (Turbo-prop) on around £23000. Not a fortune, but at least you can afford some kind of a lifestyle.
There are a few who pay more.
The companies being complained about here may be taking advantage of an opportunity to make more profit on the backs of desperate people who are very anxious to justify all the money they've spent on buying a career. But ultimately these managers are immoral, callous and cynical in their attitudes, and people have long memories!
There will always be the time when these same managers will be asking staff to 'pull out the stops' to save their bacon.
Payback time?
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Interesting subject I must say. It makes me feel quite fortunate to be flying a turboprop (ATR72) for £23000 per annum however, there is no flight pay so no extras can be taken home on top of that. Except for night mail when we get £10 after tax.
The potential for salary increase does exists in the industry through promotion or moving onto a jet however starting salaries are very low on most turboprops for people who have often spent over £60000 to get themselves there.
Where I live, I have friends who are admin assistants, nurses etc who earn almost as much as I do with no debt and many more benefits such as private health care and more leave. Obviously their salaries are unlikely to increase anywhere near as much as mine in the next ten years. However, it does indicate how low starting turboprop salaries (and lack of benefits.) tend it be in comparison to many other jobs.
The potential for salary increase does exists in the industry through promotion or moving onto a jet however starting salaries are very low on most turboprops for people who have often spent over £60000 to get themselves there.
Where I live, I have friends who are admin assistants, nurses etc who earn almost as much as I do with no debt and many more benefits such as private health care and more leave. Obviously their salaries are unlikely to increase anywhere near as much as mine in the next ten years. However, it does indicate how low starting turboprop salaries (and lack of benefits.) tend it be in comparison to many other jobs.
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For Batty
Glad to see an FO is so highly rated in your estimations MAli, why not just have him sat down the back since by the sounds of it he wouldnt have a worthwhile comment anyway. Your a dinosaur!
++++++++++
Very probably not!
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Very probably not!
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In the states dont some FOs pay to work?
At least it aint that bad - yet
I reckon Avaition is going the same way as manufacturing
..many goods are manufactured in E Europe.. cheaper
Reduced labour costs...
On that point I bet some Czeck or Slovak (JAA) pilots would regard the salaries quoted above as quite good....
411A is right is just good old fashioned economics and the JAA
rules are making it worse
1/ More costly ratings
2/ More time to complete
3/ More difficult to complete
4/ Importing pilots into UK from other countries...
Only 25 PPL IRs issues in a country with 30,000 PPLs last year
Safety is no accident...ha ha dont make me laugh
Its about vested interest and cost reductions..
At least it aint that bad - yet
I reckon Avaition is going the same way as manufacturing
..many goods are manufactured in E Europe.. cheaper
Reduced labour costs...
On that point I bet some Czeck or Slovak (JAA) pilots would regard the salaries quoted above as quite good....
411A is right is just good old fashioned economics and the JAA
rules are making it worse
1/ More costly ratings
2/ More time to complete
3/ More difficult to complete
4/ Importing pilots into UK from other countries...
Only 25 PPL IRs issues in a country with 30,000 PPLs last year
Safety is no accident...ha ha dont make me laugh
Its about vested interest and cost reductions..
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The continued degrading of salaries will come back and bite the bean counters, especially in a small turbo prop companies - as pay goes down, so does morale, and people who dont feel valued by the company aint going to go out of the way to make sure the a/c stays servicable, gets back to base, come in on days off for example.
also, who the hell do they think they are going to promote? all internal pilots are going to be 200hrs, not staying for more than a year, so they will have to take DEP. Which means they are only just going to get people scraping in on the minmums or instructing backgounds etc. So there isnt going to be much experience "up front". There is a serious safety issue here.
The fuel truck drivers and nearly everyone else at the airport is paid more than an FO in my company.
£16500 is not an acceptable wage. it is below what the average graduate would recieve - take into account that a lot of these guys comming out of oxford have a degree or two themselves.
Shame on the beancounters for letting this happen. I didnt come into aviation for the money, but i do demand a fair wage for the job I do.
CC
also, who the hell do they think they are going to promote? all internal pilots are going to be 200hrs, not staying for more than a year, so they will have to take DEP. Which means they are only just going to get people scraping in on the minmums or instructing backgounds etc. So there isnt going to be much experience "up front". There is a serious safety issue here.
The fuel truck drivers and nearly everyone else at the airport is paid more than an FO in my company.
£16500 is not an acceptable wage. it is below what the average graduate would recieve - take into account that a lot of these guys comming out of oxford have a degree or two themselves.
Shame on the beancounters for letting this happen. I didnt come into aviation for the money, but i do demand a fair wage for the job I do.
CC
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On that point I bet some Czeck or Slovak (JAA) pilots would regard the salaries quoted above as quite good....
On the other hand our esteemed friends to the east, the Slovaks aren't JAA yet. They are sort of....well, they smoke but don't inhale if ya know what I mean
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BigAir,
You dont pay for your own type rating at EZY, I presume you are refering to the TRSS scheme.
The TRSS scheme is whereby the bond is in your name rahter than the companys but organised by the company, the only difference been if you fail your conversion then you pick up the bill...
Now I didnt say I agreed with that practise...
You dont pay for your own type rating at EZY, I presume you are refering to the TRSS scheme.
The TRSS scheme is whereby the bond is in your name rahter than the companys but organised by the company, the only difference been if you fail your conversion then you pick up the bill...
Now I didnt say I agreed with that practise...
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The Sutton Harbour Group, who own Air Southwest have just announced the Group Interim Results.
Group turnover is nearly three times that recorded a year ago.
Operating profit is up 23.4%.
Earnings per share have grown by 22.8%.
A dividend of 1.1p per share will be paid to shareholders, an increase of 22%.
Meanwhile on the same day the new Flight Crew Terms and Conditions were announced.
New First Officers will join on a salary of £16,480, a decrease of 25.1%.
Year one Captains salary has fallen from £41,000 to £37,595.
That will do the about the same for morale, as a years supply of Ginsters sarnies!
Group turnover is nearly three times that recorded a year ago.
Operating profit is up 23.4%.
Earnings per share have grown by 22.8%.
A dividend of 1.1p per share will be paid to shareholders, an increase of 22%.
Meanwhile on the same day the new Flight Crew Terms and Conditions were announced.
New First Officers will join on a salary of £16,480, a decrease of 25.1%.
Year one Captains salary has fallen from £41,000 to £37,595.
That will do the about the same for morale, as a years supply of Ginsters sarnies!
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I heard from a friend flying in Greece that new FOs(on B737) salary is 1500 EUR per month minus the cost of training which is deducted from the monthly salary over a period of three years I think ! so average FO salary is approaching 1000 EUR per month !
come on !! Capt 's average salary is 3000 EUR per month !!
How much lower can it get !!!!!??????!!!!
come on !! Capt 's average salary is 3000 EUR per month !!
How much lower can it get !!!!!??????!!!!
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Pay and Conditions
Oh dear - we've been rumbled.
The pay and conditions are to do, I think, with the fact the the general public (and Airline Companies) have realised that pilots/aircrew are not above the average as workers or human beings. Flying is a job and needs a skill to perform that job. This applies to most other jobs. The skill requires a certain aptitude. This applies to most other jobs. Not everyone has the aptitude and cannot be trained to be a pilot. This applies to most other jobs. I think that we have to recognise that the days of the big salaries/long layovers/relaxed working life are over. This also applies to most other jobs.
I have the advantage of being at the end of a 43 year flying career; military and civil, and I have enjoyed all of it. The world changes and we have to have the courage to change with it and work to change what we can about our working conditions (and salaries). If you want to do it then do it, if not then don't.
The pay and conditions are to do, I think, with the fact the the general public (and Airline Companies) have realised that pilots/aircrew are not above the average as workers or human beings. Flying is a job and needs a skill to perform that job. This applies to most other jobs. The skill requires a certain aptitude. This applies to most other jobs. Not everyone has the aptitude and cannot be trained to be a pilot. This applies to most other jobs. I think that we have to recognise that the days of the big salaries/long layovers/relaxed working life are over. This also applies to most other jobs.
I have the advantage of being at the end of a 43 year flying career; military and civil, and I have enjoyed all of it. The world changes and we have to have the courage to change with it and work to change what we can about our working conditions (and salaries). If you want to do it then do it, if not then don't.
Unfortunately the travelling public have been conditioned to think that paying anymore than £30 return for a 1 hour flight is expensive.
I flew from STN to CPH yesterday with Easyjet. The total cost of the trip was £62.99 - a bargain especially as it included taxes etc. However this was one of the more expensive fares on the plane as I booked it less than a week ago.
People will quite happily pay £70 return for a 1 hour train journey or £25 per day in car parking at LHR or whatever that 15 minute train to Paddington rips one off by these days but try charging more than tuppence for the air fare and there is uproar.
Unfortunately it is a highly "sexy" industry that we operate in where every tom, dick and harry wants to be and make money. One or two Low cost carriers have made a success of it and now everyone wnat a slice of the cake happily cutting their own and everyone elses throats in the process.
Whilst I would not make any friends by saying so the only way to avoid earning peanuts as an F/O is not to work for the carriers that pay peanuts.
I flew from STN to CPH yesterday with Easyjet. The total cost of the trip was £62.99 - a bargain especially as it included taxes etc. However this was one of the more expensive fares on the plane as I booked it less than a week ago.
People will quite happily pay £70 return for a 1 hour train journey or £25 per day in car parking at LHR or whatever that 15 minute train to Paddington rips one off by these days but try charging more than tuppence for the air fare and there is uproar.
Unfortunately it is a highly "sexy" industry that we operate in where every tom, dick and harry wants to be and make money. One or two Low cost carriers have made a success of it and now everyone wnat a slice of the cake happily cutting their own and everyone elses throats in the process.
Whilst I would not make any friends by saying so the only way to avoid earning peanuts as an F/O is not to work for the carriers that pay peanuts.
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M Ali: Yawn.....
that was weeks ago and you already replied trying to bait me....Your oviously slow and lumbering, another dinosaur trait. Roll on the next ice age and EXTINCTION
And of note isnt WIMIN spelt WOMEN, and its not 'WIMIN AN BEER' its 'AND BEER'. DRIVER AIRFRAMES shouldnt that be AIRFRAMES DRIVER. Unless of course your one of the guys/WIMIN in the tug on pushback. Ahhhh it all becomes clear at last....
Geez we give you a perfectly good language and what do you do??? TRASH it....
that was weeks ago and you already replied trying to bait me....Your oviously slow and lumbering, another dinosaur trait. Roll on the next ice age and EXTINCTIONAnd of note isnt WIMIN spelt WOMEN, and its not 'WIMIN AN BEER' its 'AND BEER'. DRIVER AIRFRAMES shouldnt that be AIRFRAMES DRIVER. Unless of course your one of the guys/WIMIN in the tug on pushback. Ahhhh it all becomes clear at last....
Geez we give you a perfectly good language and what do you do??? TRASH it....
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If all the above figures for F/O salaries are correct, why then is there a never ending supply of self sponsored frozen ATPLs?
Surely if one's motivation is a love of flying rather than making money it would be better to pursue a career that could finance the flying rather than choose airline/corporate flying itself.
I am thinking of the number of people in the medical/legal/financial professsions in the US who own private Mustangs and such like aircraft.
The willingness for people to self-sponsor and buy type ratings is obviously a gift from heaven for airline financial directors in the UK.
Do the UK FTOs give genuine advice on career prospects when signing up new students into their training programmes?
Surely if one's motivation is a love of flying rather than making money it would be better to pursue a career that could finance the flying rather than choose airline/corporate flying itself.
I am thinking of the number of people in the medical/legal/financial professsions in the US who own private Mustangs and such like aircraft.
The willingness for people to self-sponsor and buy type ratings is obviously a gift from heaven for airline financial directors in the UK.
Do the UK FTOs give genuine advice on career prospects when signing up new students into their training programmes?
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Today if you want to become a pilot you need to fork out around £150,000 (this includes a type rating on either A320 or B737). Count it will take you around 2 years to complete all the training. After this if you are lucky you get a job or else you can fork out another £25,000 to do 300 hrs on type to then get a job.
So let's say you worked hard for five years selling cars and bought a couple of houses that appreciated, you sold the housese and you suddenly have £230,000 to use for your pilot training and to live off of for two years while you study hard. At the end of it all there you are flying a B737 for a low cost airline, earning £1,800/month doing 95 hrs flying per month. After a while the novelty will wear off.
Alternatively, a story I hear recently of a guy that after the 5 years as a car sales man and a bit of property investing bought a franchise of an Australian company called Action International and is doing business coaching from home. This investment cost him £15,000 (fifteenthousand pounds) and after 6 months he's earning over £20,000 (twentythousand pounds) a month. This guy has now bought his own airplane and having fun!
This makes me wonder out of the above two people who is the clever one???????
So let's say you worked hard for five years selling cars and bought a couple of houses that appreciated, you sold the housese and you suddenly have £230,000 to use for your pilot training and to live off of for two years while you study hard. At the end of it all there you are flying a B737 for a low cost airline, earning £1,800/month doing 95 hrs flying per month. After a while the novelty will wear off.
Alternatively, a story I hear recently of a guy that after the 5 years as a car sales man and a bit of property investing bought a franchise of an Australian company called Action International and is doing business coaching from home. This investment cost him £15,000 (fifteenthousand pounds) and after 6 months he's earning over £20,000 (twentythousand pounds) a month. This guy has now bought his own airplane and having fun!
This makes me wonder out of the above two people who is the clever one???????