Striking
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JBR
Some unions go to far in there demands. For instance post 9/11 some of the unions if i remember properly and im sure some one will put me right The pilots union in Delta were asking for a huge pay rise despite the airline being on its knees.
I remember working on a building site in London where the shop steward would call a strike if the tea tasted not to his liking and this was not a one off there was a shortage of certain skills and they knew they could get away with it.
We have seen unions make stupid demands where employers have just said forget it and closed down. It happened at Bae in Kingston in the early 90's. They worked a 37.5hr week but demanded a 35hr week but still get paid for a 37.5 and work the extra 2.5hrs at over time rates. Six months later the factory closed down so everybody lost.
Dont get me wrong i do agree that in certain circumstances unions are needed FR being a classic example but also look at Nissan sunderland where they have no union and yet it is one of the most efficient car factories in the world because the management have taken on a consultative approach with its workers and it works.
It doesnt matter which way you look at it the unions brought this country to its knees in the seventies as they wanted to rule. They brought down the publicy elected Heath government and they ried the same in the 80's with Thatcher but came a very poor second. Also when you see that lengths a union will go to stop someone who wants to work passing the picket line its quite shamefull and still happens today. Personal intimidation threats to their family and "being sent to coventry" and isolation when they go back to work it stinks and thats some of the reasons why i hate them.
I think that FR will work better with a union because the workers will feel a little safer and have a collective voice agianst a rich bully who lets face it has lost the plot and through his actions promotes unionism.
Ps being sent to coventry means no one talking to you and being ignored at work.
In the recent tube strike in London the RMT union had pickets at most stations and cuaght on TV was another union driver trying to go to work and the striking union taking him to one side and a "having word" before he thought the better of it and went home.
Some unions go to far in there demands. For instance post 9/11 some of the unions if i remember properly and im sure some one will put me right The pilots union in Delta were asking for a huge pay rise despite the airline being on its knees.
I remember working on a building site in London where the shop steward would call a strike if the tea tasted not to his liking and this was not a one off there was a shortage of certain skills and they knew they could get away with it.
We have seen unions make stupid demands where employers have just said forget it and closed down. It happened at Bae in Kingston in the early 90's. They worked a 37.5hr week but demanded a 35hr week but still get paid for a 37.5 and work the extra 2.5hrs at over time rates. Six months later the factory closed down so everybody lost.
Dont get me wrong i do agree that in certain circumstances unions are needed FR being a classic example but also look at Nissan sunderland where they have no union and yet it is one of the most efficient car factories in the world because the management have taken on a consultative approach with its workers and it works.
It doesnt matter which way you look at it the unions brought this country to its knees in the seventies as they wanted to rule. They brought down the publicy elected Heath government and they ried the same in the 80's with Thatcher but came a very poor second. Also when you see that lengths a union will go to stop someone who wants to work passing the picket line its quite shamefull and still happens today. Personal intimidation threats to their family and "being sent to coventry" and isolation when they go back to work it stinks and thats some of the reasons why i hate them.
I think that FR will work better with a union because the workers will feel a little safer and have a collective voice agianst a rich bully who lets face it has lost the plot and through his actions promotes unionism.
Ps being sent to coventry means no one talking to you and being ignored at work.
In the recent tube strike in London the RMT union had pickets at most stations and cuaght on TV was another union driver trying to go to work and the striking union taking him to one side and a "having word" before he thought the better of it and went home.
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flaps60
Delta's current contract is from before 9/11
Furthermore Delta's contract is a result of MANAGEMENT's abuses.
The contract prior was VERY concessionary. They signed it at the height of the post first gulfwar recession. When the crisis passed and the pilots asked for a little relief (could they go back to the way things were on the previous contract) management reponded that "a contract is a contract." IOW thanks for giving in our time of need, but now that we are making billions go jump in a lake....
Then in the USA you can't strike when the contract expires (for aviation) the contract becomes "amendable" and a status quo goes into effect (striking requires a series of steps that takes about 3 years to get to). So the Delta management dragged out the negotiations for 3 years all the while forcing the pilots through to live with those concessions they had made to save the company when times were tough while Delta piled up billions after billions. In the meantime the United pilots scored a big contract (because of their management's ineptness) so now the bar went up dramatically.
Had Delta bargained in good faith the Delta pilots would be making half what they are making now and be reasonably happy.
But 3 years of screwing around with the pilots by Delta managment got them where they are today. Then when the game changed post 9/11 the pilots RIGHTLY said "a contract is a contract"
Companies get the unions they deserve. Union's don't happen in a vacuume.
And flaps to 60. Someone who crosses a picket line is a SCAB. He is a thief and no better than someone who robs a liquor store. He benefits from the work of the strikers without paying any of the dues. Its stealing, just like napster (for copyrighted works) and the thug with a gun and a ski mask.
Cheers
Wino
Delta's current contract is from before 9/11
Furthermore Delta's contract is a result of MANAGEMENT's abuses.
The contract prior was VERY concessionary. They signed it at the height of the post first gulfwar recession. When the crisis passed and the pilots asked for a little relief (could they go back to the way things were on the previous contract) management reponded that "a contract is a contract." IOW thanks for giving in our time of need, but now that we are making billions go jump in a lake....
Then in the USA you can't strike when the contract expires (for aviation) the contract becomes "amendable" and a status quo goes into effect (striking requires a series of steps that takes about 3 years to get to). So the Delta management dragged out the negotiations for 3 years all the while forcing the pilots through to live with those concessions they had made to save the company when times were tough while Delta piled up billions after billions. In the meantime the United pilots scored a big contract (because of their management's ineptness) so now the bar went up dramatically.
Had Delta bargained in good faith the Delta pilots would be making half what they are making now and be reasonably happy.
But 3 years of screwing around with the pilots by Delta managment got them where they are today. Then when the game changed post 9/11 the pilots RIGHTLY said "a contract is a contract"
Companies get the unions they deserve. Union's don't happen in a vacuume.
And flaps to 60. Someone who crosses a picket line is a SCAB. He is a thief and no better than someone who robs a liquor store. He benefits from the work of the strikers without paying any of the dues. Its stealing, just like napster (for copyrighted works) and the thug with a gun and a ski mask.
Cheers
Wino
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I new someone would put me right and for that i thank you Wino.
Mmmmm inspired debate!
Did you ever think that a SCAB might have a family to feed or a mortgage payment to meet or just plainly not agree with the reasons for striking.
I am an individual and have the right to decide whether or not i work for my own personal reasons without having to worry what some "union goon" is going to do to me for expressing my right.
You are from the nation that shouts the loudest about freedoms in many forms and yet you are intimating that you would deny me the right to cross a picket line and therby express my freedom to work.
Get off the horse that rode into town with. You are giving MOL the very reasons to fight this battle with such comments and ideology.
Would you have called me a scab when that shop steward called a strike when he didn't like the tea in the canteen and i crossed it because it was one of the most monumemtally stupid reasons i have seen a union strike over or would you say "flaps you used your brains because it is really a stupid reasons to bring an important project to a halt without giving the canteen the opportunity to put things right".
Just listen to yourself "Thief, Gun, Robs, Thug, Stealing all in one paragraph all just because someone may have an opinion different to yours and wants to work.
During the miners strike in this country in the 80's an inocent taxi driver was killed by strikers or their supporters when a breeze block was droped from a height onto his car simply because he was taking a SCAB to work. This SCAB saw what was going on and decided that he wanted to work and support his family and pay to keep a roof over his head. He was a man doing what real men do, looking out for his own.
Any inspired comments on this scenario?
Once more for you Wino.
I hate unions but i can also see a reasons for them but only with restraint and this is something that I/BALPA are going to have to show MOL when 99.99% of his pilots, cabin crew, engineers etc etc join.
The only person who has backed into a corner is MOL and at least the pilots and I/BALPA are trying to talk and i commend them for that. This is unionism at its finest learn from it rather than hurling invectives at those who want to work.
Someone who crosses a picket line is a SCAB. He is a thief and no better than someone who robs a liquor store. He benefits from the work of the strikers without paying any of the dues. Its stealing, just like napster (for copyrighted works) and the thug with a gun and a ski mask.
Did you ever think that a SCAB might have a family to feed or a mortgage payment to meet or just plainly not agree with the reasons for striking.
I am an individual and have the right to decide whether or not i work for my own personal reasons without having to worry what some "union goon" is going to do to me for expressing my right.
You are from the nation that shouts the loudest about freedoms in many forms and yet you are intimating that you would deny me the right to cross a picket line and therby express my freedom to work.
Get off the horse that rode into town with. You are giving MOL the very reasons to fight this battle with such comments and ideology.
Would you have called me a scab when that shop steward called a strike when he didn't like the tea in the canteen and i crossed it because it was one of the most monumemtally stupid reasons i have seen a union strike over or would you say "flaps you used your brains because it is really a stupid reasons to bring an important project to a halt without giving the canteen the opportunity to put things right".
Just listen to yourself "Thief, Gun, Robs, Thug, Stealing all in one paragraph all just because someone may have an opinion different to yours and wants to work.
During the miners strike in this country in the 80's an inocent taxi driver was killed by strikers or their supporters when a breeze block was droped from a height onto his car simply because he was taking a SCAB to work. This SCAB saw what was going on and decided that he wanted to work and support his family and pay to keep a roof over his head. He was a man doing what real men do, looking out for his own.
We have seen unions make stupid demands where employers have just said forget it and closed down. It happened at Bae in Kingston in the early 90's. They worked a 37.5hr week but demanded a 35hr week but still get paid for a 37.5 and work the extra 2.5hrs at over time rates. Six months later the factory closed down so everybody lost.
Once more for you Wino.
I hate unions but i can also see a reasons for them but only with restraint and this is something that I/BALPA are going to have to show MOL when 99.99% of his pilots, cabin crew, engineers etc etc join.
The only person who has backed into a corner is MOL and at least the pilots and I/BALPA are trying to talk and i commend them for that. This is unionism at its finest learn from it rather than hurling invectives at those who want to work.
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Wino,
For your information, the London Underground has a number of unions in operation. The incident to which flaps to 60 refers occurred when a non-RMT (the striking union) employee attempted to get to work. Incidentally they are not the largest of the driver unions, and harrassment of someone else getting to work is not on when it is ASLEF who generally control driver negotiations, and who themselves were not on strike.
The background to that recent strike appears to many in London to be a case the union flexing its muscle rather than for genuine reasons of pay or safety. To cross the line of that union is hardly SCAB behaviour.
Oh and if it were theft, don't you suppose it might be illegal? Perhaps you are unaware of many working practices of UK unions, who appear to think that daylight robbery from their employers is OK?
For your information, the London Underground has a number of unions in operation. The incident to which flaps to 60 refers occurred when a non-RMT (the striking union) employee attempted to get to work. Incidentally they are not the largest of the driver unions, and harrassment of someone else getting to work is not on when it is ASLEF who generally control driver negotiations, and who themselves were not on strike.
The background to that recent strike appears to many in London to be a case the union flexing its muscle rather than for genuine reasons of pay or safety. To cross the line of that union is hardly SCAB behaviour.
Oh and if it were theft, don't you suppose it might be illegal? Perhaps you are unaware of many working practices of UK unions, who appear to think that daylight robbery from their employers is OK?
