So I joined BALPA and they sent me last year's diary
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So I joined BALPA and they sent me last year's diary
Wish I was Nigel flying in the sky
Money in the bank never mind the bl**ding piles !
Instead I'm a GA pilot with mortgage still to pay
thought I'd join BALPA
and see my salary rise
You guessed...they took my money and now I am the proud possessor of last year's BALPA diary.
Any takers?
Money in the bank never mind the bl**ding piles !
Instead I'm a GA pilot with mortgage still to pay
thought I'd join BALPA
and see my salary rise
You guessed...they took my money and now I am the proud possessor of last year's BALPA diary.
Any takers?
Join Date: May 2000
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You know, there are people around who still believe that Balpa can influence your lifestyle and pay?
Market forces alone do that, always have done, always will. Airline owners pay what they have to in order to keep sufficient drivers (airframe) to run the airline.
Anything else is an illusion, a delusion.
Any change to T & C's that a union apparently achieve, if contrary to the accountants' plans, is automatically opposed to the financial well-being of that company.
Save your money and invest in anything except aviation.
Market forces alone do that, always have done, always will. Airline owners pay what they have to in order to keep sufficient drivers (airframe) to run the airline.
Anything else is an illusion, a delusion.
Any change to T & C's that a union apparently achieve, if contrary to the accountants' plans, is automatically opposed to the financial well-being of that company.
Save your money and invest in anything except aviation.
Mistrust in Management
Joyce
You know, there are people around who still believe that Balpa can influence your lifestyle and pay?
See here: Ryanair - a call to arms
MOL may be a menace but he is not a complete fool. Why do you think he is desperate to keep BALPA out?
Regards
Exeng
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Exeng
...for the simple reason that he doesn't want a strike at STN. That's the one (very costly) thing a union can sometimes organise, though it's historically very difficult to get UK pilots to take that action.
I maintain - except in the short term, Balpa has no say over T's and C's, they're governed by supply and demand and the economic viability of the company.
Just look at the airlines that have failed in the UK in the last 40 years and tick the ones that enjoyed Balpa recognition- it'll make you scratch your head in wonder!
...for the simple reason that he doesn't want a strike at STN. That's the one (very costly) thing a union can sometimes organise, though it's historically very difficult to get UK pilots to take that action.
I maintain - except in the short term, Balpa has no say over T's and C's, they're governed by supply and demand and the economic viability of the company.
Just look at the airlines that have failed in the UK in the last 40 years and tick the ones that enjoyed Balpa recognition- it'll make you scratch your head in wonder!
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Joyce, I think you're largely right. I think the fact that the union supports the seniority principle is somewhat cynical. Without seniority we would alll be able to move where we wish and respond to market forces. With seniority and with people feeling they are trapped by it, there will always be a mismatch between personal expectations and what management will offer, which is a recipe for industrial strife, and hence a requirement for a union.
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I wouldn't want to offend anyone and this is not to stir things up.
This subject has been brought-up time and time again on various threads on this web site and I am sure this will not be the last.
You will always have people supporting BALPA and those against it.
I am sure many of you have had this discussion with fellow colleagues on the line or wherever, about the good and bad points of BALPA, but I am almost certain none of you have heard a colleague or a fellow PPRUNEer say: "I don't agree with BALPA (I don't want to pay my 1%) therefore I will refuse any benefits that BALPA have earned for me. I will talk to the finance department in the company and tell them to deduct the xyz-% that BALPA have negotiated."
I work for one of the big airline/tour operators in the UK and the BALPA Company Council have in my opinion improved working conditions, but some people in the company still criticise it.
As I said before those people that criticise it haven't yet (to my knowledge) turned around and tell our company that they didn't want the last pay rise.
I have been a member of BALPA now for a few years and so far they have been ok as far as I am concerned. The day they don't satisfy my needs I will discontinue my membership and I will tell them why. But I don't see the point in posting anonimous messages, unless I have an axe to grind.
One last thing to think about is the assistance that potentially a fellow Union in places like Greece, Turkey etc, can provide in case of an incident, particularly if you happen to be the commander of the aircraft.
Anyway, that's my two pennies (or more like a couple of quit) worth of opinion.
Now, I'll take cover.
You can shoot.
This subject has been brought-up time and time again on various threads on this web site and I am sure this will not be the last.
You will always have people supporting BALPA and those against it.
I am sure many of you have had this discussion with fellow colleagues on the line or wherever, about the good and bad points of BALPA, but I am almost certain none of you have heard a colleague or a fellow PPRUNEer say: "I don't agree with BALPA (I don't want to pay my 1%) therefore I will refuse any benefits that BALPA have earned for me. I will talk to the finance department in the company and tell them to deduct the xyz-% that BALPA have negotiated."
I work for one of the big airline/tour operators in the UK and the BALPA Company Council have in my opinion improved working conditions, but some people in the company still criticise it.
As I said before those people that criticise it haven't yet (to my knowledge) turned around and tell our company that they didn't want the last pay rise.
I have been a member of BALPA now for a few years and so far they have been ok as far as I am concerned. The day they don't satisfy my needs I will discontinue my membership and I will tell them why. But I don't see the point in posting anonimous messages, unless I have an axe to grind.
One last thing to think about is the assistance that potentially a fellow Union in places like Greece, Turkey etc, can provide in case of an incident, particularly if you happen to be the commander of the aircraft.
Anyway, that's my two pennies (or more like a couple of quit) worth of opinion.
Now, I'll take cover.
You can shoot.
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Its the very fact that Pilots are not prepared to take militant action that’s been our own undoing.....and so long as we don’t strengthen the membership...vote in people who will take on the companies on our behalf. We will continue to get shafted. No one ever gave the nice guy anything.....we need to be more militant as a unified group....not just company wise. Picking at what is probably the largest Union doesn’t really achieve much. Sure it won’t be everything to everyone, but it’s up to us to change that. Remember if you’re not a member you can’t vote…….
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Management claptrap...
Any change to T & C's that a union apparently achieve, if contrary to the accountants' plans, is automatically opposed to the financial well-being of that company.
You have fallen into the rather large trap management often set for their workforce. Namely one of fear, fear of losing ones job if you support the nasty union....
Thankfully those of us who have had dealings with managements in the past are quite used to their inane bleatings, and usually stamp them out before it even becomes an issue.
Joyce... just a thought, but what would you call a beancounter who did NOT make provision for the odd % point over & above projection...? I can guess your answer... incompetance, a word most managements have first hand knowledge off...
Joyce, do not fall into aforementioned trap!
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Meeb - you do me an injustice! I said " if contrary to the beancounters' plans" - of course they allow for a higher % than the opening management bid. That's standard practice and both sides do it as a matter of course in all parts of industry.
Viscount Sussex- you have an old chestnut too- I remember your argument from (literally) decades back. You talk as if the union is actually paying the rise it thinks it negotiated! The company is paying - why refuse the company's money? If it was coming from the union coffers- then you would have a valid point. The union is only 'negotiating' the rise the company was going to pay anyway and has already budgeted for!
Last year, our lads union asked for 7% against our offer of 3.5%. We eventually settled at 5%, which had been in the budget since last November! The union still thinks it screwed us for 1.5%! If any of my non-union boys turned down the 1.5% extra I'd think they were bonkers! (and pay them anyway-they deserve it)
Viscount Sussex- you have an old chestnut too- I remember your argument from (literally) decades back. You talk as if the union is actually paying the rise it thinks it negotiated! The company is paying - why refuse the company's money? If it was coming from the union coffers- then you would have a valid point. The union is only 'negotiating' the rise the company was going to pay anyway and has already budgeted for!
Last year, our lads union asked for 7% against our offer of 3.5%. We eventually settled at 5%, which had been in the budget since last November! The union still thinks it screwed us for 1.5%! If any of my non-union boys turned down the 1.5% extra I'd think they were bonkers! (and pay them anyway-they deserve it)
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Joyce Tick
Although the company is paying for the increment its the union that has negotiated the deal, as you said. The company wouldn't offer you extra money or extra days leave or day-off payment rise, of its own accord.
Most of these things come from negotiation and for that I think you need somebody to represent you. I also think that if the union represent a larger number of members obviously will have greater power.
I don't think it would do much good if an individual pilot went along to the ops director or personnel department and ask for a pay rise, do you?
Anyway, we all think different and that's why we have union members and non-union members. But unless you have a close-shop, you will always have people ripping the benefits of other people's contributions.
That's a fact.
Although the company is paying for the increment its the union that has negotiated the deal, as you said. The company wouldn't offer you extra money or extra days leave or day-off payment rise, of its own accord.
Most of these things come from negotiation and for that I think you need somebody to represent you. I also think that if the union represent a larger number of members obviously will have greater power.
I don't think it would do much good if an individual pilot went along to the ops director or personnel department and ask for a pay rise, do you?
Anyway, we all think different and that's why we have union members and non-union members. But unless you have a close-shop, you will always have people ripping the benefits of other people's contributions.
That's a fact.
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I'm pretty sure our management would pay us 0% payrise every year if we had no union. What are we going to do about it? Will every pilot go into the manager's office and demand a pay rise? The one thing the union does is fight our side and ballot the members, to allow an "anonymous" strength of feeling vote. I personally would not be prepared to stick my neck out, not knowing if I was the only one, and walk into the managements office every year to ask for a payrise (even if it were just inflation). Personally, I'd rather pay BALPA the 1% to do that dirty work for me. We generally end up with more than the company's first offer.
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What else is new?
Isn´t the UK one year (or more) behind in most things..? 
Airbus Girl is right though, better than nothing as they do the negotiating for you! The net result should be positive.
If you want a diary, try WHSmith.
BTW, I also got last years inserts and the gorgeous, pale blue plastic binder!
Airbus Girl is right though, better than nothing as they do the negotiating for you! The net result should be positive.
If you want a diary, try WHSmith.
BTW, I also got last years inserts and the gorgeous, pale blue plastic binder!
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I joined BALP in late 2000, early 01 having been recommended by a colleauge who suggested that as a corporate pilot working for a private owner I might one day have need of their legal services.
In addition to the monthly "log" all I ever got from BALPA was a constant flow of political letters advising me of an internal power struggle, and reason to either vote for, or against, canditates vying to be elected chariman or secratary of the organisation.
I have no idea who they elected to the post, but the money I and so many others spent in "dues" was surely spent on union infighting rather than promoting real causes that could have otherwise been addressed.
Needless to say I am no longer a member of an organisation that places a higher priority on arguing over its own internal politics rather than concentrating on the problems of their members as they are paid to do.
In addition to the monthly "log" all I ever got from BALPA was a constant flow of political letters advising me of an internal power struggle, and reason to either vote for, or against, canditates vying to be elected chariman or secratary of the organisation.
I have no idea who they elected to the post, but the money I and so many others spent in "dues" was surely spent on union infighting rather than promoting real causes that could have otherwise been addressed.
Needless to say I am no longer a member of an organisation that places a higher priority on arguing over its own internal politics rather than concentrating on the problems of their members as they are paid to do.
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Airbus girl - no they wouldn't (pay you 0%)
We may be mean but we're not stupid - and we'll pay what we can reasonably pass on to our customers. Pilots are supposed to be intelligent people yet they persist in the very childish attitude that all management (and especially, for some reason airline management) is trying to screw the workers.
Well times have moved on since the 60's and managers don't get there by being business family members, they have to know how employee relations work. It is our duty to try and cover at least the RPI in our annual payrise - if we can give more, we will.. We don't want a dispirited and disgruntled workforce. Why should we? It's bad for business and, in the end, our profitability and MY company shares!
We don't need a union to tell us to keep the workforce happy - my wallet does that..
(sorry - I mean my purse!)
We may be mean but we're not stupid - and we'll pay what we can reasonably pass on to our customers. Pilots are supposed to be intelligent people yet they persist in the very childish attitude that all management (and especially, for some reason airline management) is trying to screw the workers.
Well times have moved on since the 60's and managers don't get there by being business family members, they have to know how employee relations work. It is our duty to try and cover at least the RPI in our annual payrise - if we can give more, we will.. We don't want a dispirited and disgruntled workforce. Why should we? It's bad for business and, in the end, our profitability and MY company shares!
We don't need a union to tell us to keep the workforce happy - my wallet does that..
(sorry - I mean my purse!)
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When I started this thread I should have explained that I graduated with a Bsc (Econ) 42 years ago. I have always known my worth and never relied upon a Union to fight my case. If I didn't like the terms and remuneration of the job I voted with my feet. I should say I have never been out of a job ..ever. If out of a job short term the phone never stopped ringing. More to the point if I didn't like the boss...I left double quick..before I threw something at him ! !
Life is what you make it. If you ever think you have a hold on your Employers it will rebound big time.
#Why did I join BALPA?......I AM NOT SURE....It was too late anyway...I think it was a mad moment of solidarity. I am off from my present contract..something will turn up...but not until I have done a lot of networking..
Don't know who the lady is that keeps posting above...I think I will like to work for her...or socialise ! !
Life is what you make it. If you ever think you have a hold on your Employers it will rebound big time.
#Why did I join BALPA?......I AM NOT SURE....It was too late anyway...I think it was a mad moment of solidarity. I am off from my present contract..something will turn up...but not until I have done a lot of networking..
Don't know who the lady is that keeps posting above...I think I will like to work for her...or socialise ! !
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Joice Tick…..I’ve been in the flying side of this business for many years now…and as far as airline management goes …as the years have gone by I have become more and more unimpressed with the vast majority of them. I have never seen anyone who is genuinely really interested in crew moral…In fact one Ex barrow boy was stupid enough to say that “aircrew are no more than bus drivers, and tescos have an inexhaustible supply of future cabin crew” It is common practice amongst most companies to Pay as little as they can for crews, and work them to the max limits they can……I have never seen so many exhausted crews as I do now …….and remember when you lot make a mistake it can usually be fixed…we do it and people DIE…..frankly a major fatigue related accident is in my opinion on the cards. When it happens though you lot will scuttle into some holes mouthing something about it not being your fault. The Union is the only way that the bean counters can be kept in check. We have now an us and them scenario which management should have addressed ……..isn’t that supposed to be part of your job? No it seems that some of the higher management run the airlines purely for their own benefits and to heck with everyone else. As some of the massive pay-offs for lousy performance would show.
Last edited by deathcruzer; 15th Jul 2004 at 09:33.
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mmm, on the original subect, i too recently joined BALPA, got last years diary after 3 months, e-mailed them informing them that although i didn't join to receive a diary, "it's abit gash" - and it is, no other way of looking at it, it shows contempt for members, better not to send one than to try and exaust last years supply, I was contacted by the membership dep't who "would be looking into it" - suprised me then, to find this thread, i thought i was the only one !!!
Here in the UK we need to get more 'unionised' for want of a better word, i am not militant by any means and will always help out the company when i can, they pay my mortgage, but of late this county is going to the dogs, lots of seemingly short term management appointments to do hatchet jobs on companies, trying to fragment workforce's so that no one large group will be on the same contract, etc etc. Flying needs to be turned around, we are the fouth richest economy in the world (i think ?) unyet no where else have i seen 235 in a 757 stuffed in like cattle, and we here in the uk accept it !! what a crazy country !
Here in the UK we need to get more 'unionised' for want of a better word, i am not militant by any means and will always help out the company when i can, they pay my mortgage, but of late this county is going to the dogs, lots of seemingly short term management appointments to do hatchet jobs on companies, trying to fragment workforce's so that no one large group will be on the same contract, etc etc. Flying needs to be turned around, we are the fouth richest economy in the world (i think ?) unyet no where else have i seen 235 in a 757 stuffed in like cattle, and we here in the uk accept it !! what a crazy country !
