Reporting Times
Thread Starter
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 33
Likes: 0
From: around the uk
Reporting Times
I recently reported for a duty at 0555L for a 4 sector day, which should give us 11hr FDP.
After a short delay we were not due to land until 1700L which was 11hr 55 mins flight duty, I asked if we were going to be into discretion only to be told that our reporting times are based on the flight decks report time and not ours??
i reported at 0555L not 0625L like the flight deck therefore why should our report duties be based on theres, has anyone else heard this policy before or if its even legal??? if this is the companies policy why does no one get rostered this duty after there days off? (start brfore 0600L rule)
anyone help me with this? any opinions?? suggestions
After a short delay we were not due to land until 1700L which was 11hr 55 mins flight duty, I asked if we were going to be into discretion only to be told that our reporting times are based on the flight decks report time and not ours??
i reported at 0555L not 0625L like the flight deck therefore why should our report duties be based on theres, has anyone else heard this policy before or if its even legal??? if this is the companies policy why does no one get rostered this duty after there days off? (start brfore 0600L rule)
anyone help me with this? any opinions?? suggestions
Alba Gu Brath
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 745
Likes: 3
From: Merseyside
CAP371 (and your Ops Gen?) states that the limits set for max FDP and early starts is based on the Flight Deck report time. Therefore is you reported prior to 0600 local but the pilots reported after 0600local then your FDP is based on their report time but starts when you report. This change only applies to allowable FDP and early starts, it doesn't apply to start times after days off. Likewise, if you report before 0700 local but the pilots report after 0700 local then it does not count as an early start.
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 2,397
Likes: 0
From: Inside the M25
Yes, and it's a complete con IMHO - how can it possibly make sense for a cabin crew max FDP to be based on a much less limiting flight crew max FDP when the cabin crew didn't report at the same time as the flight crew?
Needless to say, this wasn't how the rules were intended to be used.
Needless to say, this wasn't how the rules were intended to be used.
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 1,424
Likes: 34
From: London,England
Needless to say, this wasn't how the rules were intended to be used.
Sounds like a bit of con?, well I guess it is but thats the rules as they stand at the moment.
Last edited by Max Angle; 23rd June 2004 at 10:12.
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,643
Likes: 0
From: UK
Pax Boy
Let me guess a DUB /AGP double from some where around the
UK and I bet the Flight Deck change after 2 sectors?
Big T
Last para - r u sure, think it would count as an early?.
Con yes but the CAA dont give a t*** about Cabin Crew i'm afraid
Let me guess a DUB /AGP double from some where around the
UK and I bet the Flight Deck change after 2 sectors?
Big T
Last para - r u sure, think it would count as an early?.
Con yes but the CAA dont give a t*** about Cabin Crew i'm afraid
Joined: Sep 1998
Posts: 100
Likes: 1
From: Near ABZ
Quote from CAP 371 - You'll need to check your company's approved FTL scheme, for the definitive version.
"24.2 The limitations which shall be applied to cabin crew are those applicable to flight crew members contained in paragraphs 6 to 23, but with the following differences:
a) A flying duty period can be 1 hour longer than that permitted for flight crew. The FDP and limits set on early starts for cabin crew shall be based on the time at which the flight crew report for their flying duty period, but that FDP will start at the report time of the cabin crew."
The maximum FDP, for a duty of 4 sectors with an 0555L report is 10 hours for cabin crew, 9 hours for flightdeck. I can't see where you get 11 hours from, (a split duty wouldn't cover it either).
Assuming the flightdeck reported at 0625L, then your maximum FDP would have been 11 hours 45 mins, but your duty would have started at 0555L. In otherwords you had hours until 1740L, 0555 + 1145 = 1740.
The reason this is not used after days off, is because you would have been on duty prior to 0600L and hence infringing the local night, which in turn invalidates the day off.
"24.2 The limitations which shall be applied to cabin crew are those applicable to flight crew members contained in paragraphs 6 to 23, but with the following differences:
a) A flying duty period can be 1 hour longer than that permitted for flight crew. The FDP and limits set on early starts for cabin crew shall be based on the time at which the flight crew report for their flying duty period, but that FDP will start at the report time of the cabin crew."
The maximum FDP, for a duty of 4 sectors with an 0555L report is 10 hours for cabin crew, 9 hours for flightdeck. I can't see where you get 11 hours from, (a split duty wouldn't cover it either).
Assuming the flightdeck reported at 0625L, then your maximum FDP would have been 11 hours 45 mins, but your duty would have started at 0555L. In otherwords you had hours until 1740L, 0555 + 1145 = 1740.
The reason this is not used after days off, is because you would have been on duty prior to 0600L and hence infringing the local night, which in turn invalidates the day off.
Thread Starter
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 33
Likes: 0
From: around the uk
dungfunnel,
thanks you for your comments, but unlike the flight deck we are not taken into any great depths with FTL, its not that we are ignorant towards the FTL, maybe it just we dont understand every detail of it!!
when we are trained i have always been told if you are unsure ask the flight deck, all i can say is thank goodness i dont have to ask you!!
talk about CRM, this forum is here for help and information. Un like the flight deck we dont always have the time to read FTL in great depths, unlike you guys/girls who maybe a little bored inflight sometimes!
the downfall to a lot of things is your attitude toward cabin crew as if they are all thick and ignorant. Maybe we have not been flyin as long as you have therefore not been through all situations with hours, why not show some compassion and understanding instead of being rude and offensive!!!!!!
Excrewingbod - thanks for your post, that helped me out a lot!!
thanks you for your comments, but unlike the flight deck we are not taken into any great depths with FTL, its not that we are ignorant towards the FTL, maybe it just we dont understand every detail of it!!
when we are trained i have always been told if you are unsure ask the flight deck, all i can say is thank goodness i dont have to ask you!!
talk about CRM, this forum is here for help and information. Un like the flight deck we dont always have the time to read FTL in great depths, unlike you guys/girls who maybe a little bored inflight sometimes!
the downfall to a lot of things is your attitude toward cabin crew as if they are all thick and ignorant. Maybe we have not been flyin as long as you have therefore not been through all situations with hours, why not show some compassion and understanding instead of being rude and offensive!!!!!!
Excrewingbod - thanks for your post, that helped me out a lot!!
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 608
Likes: 0
From: where ever i wake up!!!!
BACX crew controllers have been using the airports repeater screens to get an on chocks time for flights landing and totally ignoring the captains time, this has lead to some dubious FDP and some inventive rerostering for the next days operations. When you question there arithmetic you are always told they are right and you are wrong!! minimum rest is now the norm.
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 4,507
Likes: 4
From: last time I looked I was still here.
Is it not the case that a company is obligated to educate the crews in the legal constraints of FTL's. It is the individual's responsibility not to accept a duty outside the limits. "Only obeying orders." will not be a defence of violation.
When called out from home, 'asking the pilots' is not an option.
I have not worked for an airline where cabin staff understood how to calculate the FTL's. (Perhaps the well unionised majors would be an exception.) The company gives the C/A's the rules and expects them to self-educate. Not the same thing IMHO.
Now you come to real chestnut; and even the senior crewing and rostering officers couldn't work these out sometimes, and when the manure hit the air conditioning they didn't bother to try, just call out the crews.
Duty limits when called from SBY?
One where you can get into a real slanging match with crewing because neither party knows the rules.
When called out from home, 'asking the pilots' is not an option.
I have not worked for an airline where cabin staff understood how to calculate the FTL's. (Perhaps the well unionised majors would be an exception.) The company gives the C/A's the rules and expects them to self-educate. Not the same thing IMHO.
Now you come to real chestnut; and even the senior crewing and rostering officers couldn't work these out sometimes, and when the manure hit the air conditioning they didn't bother to try, just call out the crews.
Duty limits when called from SBY?
One where you can get into a real slanging match with crewing because neither party knows the rules.
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 59
Likes: 0
From: Infinity and Beyond
AIRBOY
You need to get a hold of the publication CAP 371. You can download it from the following site:
http://www.caa.co.uk/publications/pu...ails.asp?id=22
Look through it carefully and you will find that it does not cover every situation, but it does cover what you need to know.
Also, get a copy of your company's FTL and read and try to understand. As a pilot, I am often asked what my INTERPRETATION of the rules are. I say interpretation as that is all I can give you. We are not given lessons or guidance, (or taken to any great depths) just left to read it and try to understand them.
As far as understanding every detail, there is an old saying....
The Devil is in the detail........
You need to get a hold of the publication CAP 371. You can download it from the following site:
http://www.caa.co.uk/publications/pu...ails.asp?id=22
Look through it carefully and you will find that it does not cover every situation, but it does cover what you need to know.
Also, get a copy of your company's FTL and read and try to understand. As a pilot, I am often asked what my INTERPRETATION of the rules are. I say interpretation as that is all I can give you. We are not given lessons or guidance, (or taken to any great depths) just left to read it and try to understand them.
As far as understanding every detail, there is an old saying....
The Devil is in the detail........
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 1,424
Likes: 34
From: London,England
I can remember having a "well that's your interpretation not ours" type of conversation with crewing some years ago. It ended with me saying something like "well as it's my licence and me who has to sign the tech. log and any discrestion report we will use my interpretation and not yours"
Never heard anything back about it, it pays to stick to your guns but just make sure you are right!.
Never heard anything back about it, it pays to stick to your guns but just make sure you are right!.
