Mass Exodus at BACX
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Mass Exodus at BACX
Hi folks,
seems like they are soon going to have problems,crewing flights,pilots and cabin crew,leaving enmass!?
I believe they were offering redundency to cabin crew and pilots,only a few month ago.
Apparently they are allready short of dash8 pilots and will take on,F/O in summer.
Is there anybody out there who knows,how many pilots and CC are actually leaving?
Why is it,that always the good guys&guls are leaving and never the cr@py management!!!!
seems like they are soon going to have problems,crewing flights,pilots and cabin crew,leaving enmass!?
I believe they were offering redundency to cabin crew and pilots,only a few month ago.
Apparently they are allready short of dash8 pilots and will take on,F/O in summer.
Is there anybody out there who knows,how many pilots and CC are actually leaving?
Why is it,that always the good guys&guls are leaving and never the cr@py management!!!!
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I am one of the pilots that left recently only because i wanted to leave the country. But i can tell you that not as many as you think are leaving the company. When I left there where rumours that 20 were leaving but it was actually only 6 of us.
However i left a few months ago so don't know what things are like now. I must admit though the company is loaded with amazingly fantastic people to work with and i enjoyed every minute of my 4 years there.
However i left a few months ago so don't know what things are like now. I must admit though the company is loaded with amazingly fantastic people to work with and i enjoyed every minute of my 4 years there.
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A lot of people ARE leaving, probably not as many as exaggerated on here. However, it is probably what our so-called management want. Redundancy of a kind was offered, but it was more the perception that from Fleet Management upwards, the Company
1. genuinely does not give a damn about the people who work for it.
2. is totally inept at the job of Company and people management, and therefore losing and wasting very significant sums of money.
3. is determined never to allow any meaningful transition from BACX to BA.
4. actually genuinely does not care if the Company goes under. Even our BA secondees are returning to mainline rather than risk being part of the so-called future.
'Tis true there are some great people, but there are so many in management and senior admin positions that life is pretty grim. The roster instability is quite awful, the main reason for staying regional (home most nights and a relistic working programme compensating for the lower money) has gone. On the Emb, we are now working like, er, dunno if one can say that anymore.....but BLOODY hard.
Company may change, but our detested chief of Flight Ops is perceived as having f#cked up so badly that BA don't want him back. All of this means people will leave, and continue to leave for better jobs, but not at any cost. If you need a job, then it's ok, but only as a stepping stone. If you have a choice, nearly any other operator inthe UK is better, certainly any other jet operator.
Your call.
1. genuinely does not give a damn about the people who work for it.
2. is totally inept at the job of Company and people management, and therefore losing and wasting very significant sums of money.
3. is determined never to allow any meaningful transition from BACX to BA.
4. actually genuinely does not care if the Company goes under. Even our BA secondees are returning to mainline rather than risk being part of the so-called future.
'Tis true there are some great people, but there are so many in management and senior admin positions that life is pretty grim. The roster instability is quite awful, the main reason for staying regional (home most nights and a relistic working programme compensating for the lower money) has gone. On the Emb, we are now working like, er, dunno if one can say that anymore.....but BLOODY hard.
Company may change, but our detested chief of Flight Ops is perceived as having f#cked up so badly that BA don't want him back. All of this means people will leave, and continue to leave for better jobs, but not at any cost. If you need a job, then it's ok, but only as a stepping stone. If you have a choice, nearly any other operator inthe UK is better, certainly any other jet operator.
Your call.
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Cornflake
Your point 4 cannot be correct, as there IS no risk to being part of the "so-called future" (of BACX?) for secondees. I think that is PRECISELY the point of your colleague's term 'golden parachute', isn't it? (in any case 6 captains out of 60 pilots, isn't exactly a stampede, and at least 2 are going to longhaul commands!)
Your point 3 is also highly debatable, as British Airways ALONE decide whom they 'invite' for interview; eg. 777, 747, or A320 type ratings. Since none of these types are currently on the BACX AOC, how can ANYONE currently create a 'meaningful transition from BACX to BA'? (And what about the reciprocal?)
The job market is just begining to open up, thanks in no small part to the predictable, cyclical nature of the industry. People WILL move up the 'perceived' career ladder, which will involve changing employer from time to time.
The good news is likely to be that most employers will have to try a little harder to retain those pilots that are seen as difficult to replace.
Enjoy.
Your point 4 cannot be correct, as there IS no risk to being part of the "so-called future" (of BACX?) for secondees. I think that is PRECISELY the point of your colleague's term 'golden parachute', isn't it? (in any case 6 captains out of 60 pilots, isn't exactly a stampede, and at least 2 are going to longhaul commands!)
Your point 3 is also highly debatable, as British Airways ALONE decide whom they 'invite' for interview; eg. 777, 747, or A320 type ratings. Since none of these types are currently on the BACX AOC, how can ANYONE currently create a 'meaningful transition from BACX to BA'? (And what about the reciprocal?)
The job market is just begining to open up, thanks in no small part to the predictable, cyclical nature of the industry. People WILL move up the 'perceived' career ladder, which will involve changing employer from time to time.
The good news is likely to be that most employers will have to try a little harder to retain those pilots that are seen as difficult to replace.
Enjoy.
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Tandemrotor, I have never read anyone's posts with as much despair and irritation as those of yourself and your BA ilk. You know perfectly well:
Don't misquote me - I never used the term stampede, and agree the exodus is not as great as rumoured - however wait for the market to continue opening up!
1. BA secondees ARE bidding back to mainline, not because of a threat to their actual safe future (golden parachutes as you say) but because the uncertain future of BACX as is means their current established regional lifestyle is at risk. If they decide to stay with BACX, there will always be a job for them back in mainline, but because of the retirement age issue, the jobs they perceive as being desirable will in the main no longer be attainable due their own, relatively reduced, seniority. (The relative reduction in this coming from people who might have been retiring, now staying on. At least, this is what three separate BA secondees have told me. The six of sixty does not however include all the people who have already left BACX this year, and who are currently working their notice, turning a redundancy bulge involving BALPA into a a hiring situation.
2. Ref progression to mainline. Again, it is not unusual for an airline like BA to be reasonably expected to allow some sort of career progression from a wholly owned subsidiary like BACX to its mainline operation. I know ALL the arguments relating to BA pilot's self interest, but even a partial observer might expect that the Company would give SOME sort of advantage to people it already employs to those from off the street. Even if it were progression to the bottom of your seniority list, thus not disadvantaging any of the current mainline bods. But no. Not just the Company, but also BA BALPA oppose this. They cite problems with City Flyer turboprop pilots, yet they managed to convert most I believe - who could object to being at least given a chance at a conversion , if one fails, one fails. To be excluded as a matter of policy is illogical, unjust, and demonstrates the sort of people running BA.
I agree with your last two paras however.
Don't misquote me - I never used the term stampede, and agree the exodus is not as great as rumoured - however wait for the market to continue opening up!
1. BA secondees ARE bidding back to mainline, not because of a threat to their actual safe future (golden parachutes as you say) but because the uncertain future of BACX as is means their current established regional lifestyle is at risk. If they decide to stay with BACX, there will always be a job for them back in mainline, but because of the retirement age issue, the jobs they perceive as being desirable will in the main no longer be attainable due their own, relatively reduced, seniority. (The relative reduction in this coming from people who might have been retiring, now staying on. At least, this is what three separate BA secondees have told me. The six of sixty does not however include all the people who have already left BACX this year, and who are currently working their notice, turning a redundancy bulge involving BALPA into a a hiring situation.
2. Ref progression to mainline. Again, it is not unusual for an airline like BA to be reasonably expected to allow some sort of career progression from a wholly owned subsidiary like BACX to its mainline operation. I know ALL the arguments relating to BA pilot's self interest, but even a partial observer might expect that the Company would give SOME sort of advantage to people it already employs to those from off the street. Even if it were progression to the bottom of your seniority list, thus not disadvantaging any of the current mainline bods. But no. Not just the Company, but also BA BALPA oppose this. They cite problems with City Flyer turboprop pilots, yet they managed to convert most I believe - who could object to being at least given a chance at a conversion , if one fails, one fails. To be excluded as a matter of policy is illogical, unjust, and demonstrates the sort of people running BA.
I agree with your last two paras however.
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Cornflake, please don't despair! (I've never been called an 'ilk' before!)
I accept that my view is partial (rather than impartial) I hope you will accept, your view is too. Such is the nature of this 'tribal' business.
I think that you have just conceded, that the very few mainline secondees bidding back to mainline, are not doing so, because it is too 'risky' to be part of the 'so-called future' (of BACX?)
Which WAS your original contention.
As far as the possible 'retirement' issue is concerned, again I'm not convinced this is a major factor in people's current decision making (though perhaps it should be)
To my limited knowledge, of the handful of people returning to mainline, 2 are taking longhual commands, and at least 2 are moving to the airbus, almost entirely for domestic reasons.
So I don't see how these people are in any way relevant to a thread entitled; "Mass exodus at BACX"
You also suggest that it is not 'unusual for a company like BA' to allow a progression from a wholly owned subsidiary, to its mainline operation.
This is an implication that I have heard before, and I think it is important to examine it. All I can say is if you could give a few examples of the companies who do this, and how their system works, it may well strengthen your case.
At the end of the day, if BA can't recruit the numbers of pilots it needs, it will be forced to consider ALL solutions.
Finally, I am at BACX (as a secondee) because I enjoy working with people, probably similar to yourself, from a small base, in the North of England.
I haven't really come across an overwhelming desire to abandon the company, though of course people are excited by the possibility, now emerging, of moving on to new equipment with new employers.
I have personally witnessed this situation (including claims of 'mass exodii') on at least 2 of the previous cyclical upturns.
Take it from me, the mass exodus only occurs when the company ceases trading. Not before.
Because companies become forced to pay the going rate to retain pilots with marketable experience.
As I said, enjoy the ride over the next couple of years, because as you know, what goes up, must come down.
Take care.
I accept that my view is partial (rather than impartial) I hope you will accept, your view is too. Such is the nature of this 'tribal' business.
I think that you have just conceded, that the very few mainline secondees bidding back to mainline, are not doing so, because it is too 'risky' to be part of the 'so-called future' (of BACX?)
Which WAS your original contention.
As far as the possible 'retirement' issue is concerned, again I'm not convinced this is a major factor in people's current decision making (though perhaps it should be)
To my limited knowledge, of the handful of people returning to mainline, 2 are taking longhual commands, and at least 2 are moving to the airbus, almost entirely for domestic reasons.
So I don't see how these people are in any way relevant to a thread entitled; "Mass exodus at BACX"
You also suggest that it is not 'unusual for a company like BA' to allow a progression from a wholly owned subsidiary, to its mainline operation.
This is an implication that I have heard before, and I think it is important to examine it. All I can say is if you could give a few examples of the companies who do this, and how their system works, it may well strengthen your case.
At the end of the day, if BA can't recruit the numbers of pilots it needs, it will be forced to consider ALL solutions.
Finally, I am at BACX (as a secondee) because I enjoy working with people, probably similar to yourself, from a small base, in the North of England.
I haven't really come across an overwhelming desire to abandon the company, though of course people are excited by the possibility, now emerging, of moving on to new equipment with new employers.
I have personally witnessed this situation (including claims of 'mass exodii') on at least 2 of the previous cyclical upturns.
Take it from me, the mass exodus only occurs when the company ceases trading. Not before.
Because companies become forced to pay the going rate to retain pilots with marketable experience.
As I said, enjoy the ride over the next couple of years, because as you know, what goes up, must come down.
Take care.
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With mainline & Virgin opening the doors at last, it would be very surprising if BACX people didn't apply - many are likely to be well qualified. And let's face it, a bit of upward movement would do no harm at all after the last few years & there are plenty of wannabees still coming out of the system.
Unverified I must commence with...
At least 9 working notice at last call (in Manchester.. not really an exodus yet!) but 4 accepted to mainline and another 5 with offers on the table with competition. Personally I know of perhaps a dozen actively sending out CVs.
Total actual figures still a guess but would approximate in the region of 15 in Manchester, and who knows what elsewhere.
At least 9 working notice at last call (in Manchester.. not really an exodus yet!) but 4 accepted to mainline and another 5 with offers on the table with competition. Personally I know of perhaps a dozen actively sending out CVs.
Total actual figures still a guess but would approximate in the region of 15 in Manchester, and who knows what elsewhere.
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At BHX of the folks I fly with and speak to in the crew room I can say a fair estimation would be that around 60% of the flight deck crews are actively seeking other jobs. However so far the escape rate is pretty low, could well become an exodus if all the applications turned into offers though!
PS happy new year all Knights of the Sky
PS happy new year all Knights of the Sky
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Well, I read this with great excitement! The question that all of us in the 'infinity' pool (TP) are staring at the screen asking is that with 15 left will we all/some get a call soon? Will those leaving the Jets be replaced by current BACX TP guys and girls? Are we on the brink of a New Dawn where I don't have the office phone diverted to me tonight?
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I think a lot of people are waiting to see what the latest announcement will contain, if indeed it happens. The job could be a lot worse, but it is the continual lack of direction, focus and leadership that has caused the problem.
1. Lack of the first two, with continually changing strategic plans and tactics which vary on a daily basis have got everyone feeling very insecure.
2. The lack of leadership, and the magnitude of brown-nosing flattery from the inner circle combine to make most people realise that there is NO commitment to the troops, be they aircrew or groundcrew. The perception of self interest matched by a degree of dancing to the fiddle and pipes of Waterside, with no firm planning or leadership as far as our future is concerned combine to make people worry for their future.
So, many people, (including myself) are looking for a safe way out. All that really stops the flood is the lack of a perceived security with any other operator currently recruiting. However, the wise have applied to Monarch and Britannia / Thomsonfly, only the lack of required type rating is holding some people back. Already a perceived safe slot on the RJ is now in doubt, following the wording of TDL's missive about it being uncompetitive and unreliable. This is the same sort of message which preceded the closing of several bases, and the abandonment of several fleets.
Newbies and wannabes should be in no doubt that BACX is a good place for a first job for a couple of years, but is no longer a place for a career. Trouble is that a lot of us have a decade or so invested, and hence the jump is quite big. Most human individuals dislike change, and therefore sit tight hoping things will get better eventually, I hope that approach may be the best one for all our sakes, but I hope even more that my latest trolling for a job with BAL works out.
1. Lack of the first two, with continually changing strategic plans and tactics which vary on a daily basis have got everyone feeling very insecure.
2. The lack of leadership, and the magnitude of brown-nosing flattery from the inner circle combine to make most people realise that there is NO commitment to the troops, be they aircrew or groundcrew. The perception of self interest matched by a degree of dancing to the fiddle and pipes of Waterside, with no firm planning or leadership as far as our future is concerned combine to make people worry for their future.
So, many people, (including myself) are looking for a safe way out. All that really stops the flood is the lack of a perceived security with any other operator currently recruiting. However, the wise have applied to Monarch and Britannia / Thomsonfly, only the lack of required type rating is holding some people back. Already a perceived safe slot on the RJ is now in doubt, following the wording of TDL's missive about it being uncompetitive and unreliable. This is the same sort of message which preceded the closing of several bases, and the abandonment of several fleets.
Newbies and wannabes should be in no doubt that BACX is a good place for a first job for a couple of years, but is no longer a place for a career. Trouble is that a lot of us have a decade or so invested, and hence the jump is quite big. Most human individuals dislike change, and therefore sit tight hoping things will get better eventually, I hope that approach may be the best one for all our sakes, but I hope even more that my latest trolling for a job with BAL works out.
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this post was started more or less a year ago.
the question is, was there a mass exodus?
out of 550 or so pilots, what is a mass exodus?
what's the latest figure of pilots working their notice?
i know lots of wannabes,won't be happy about this ,but will there
be redundencies,with the publication of their new restructuring plans?
What's the future of Bacx,with Willi taking over big Ba, possible
management by out?
the question is, was there a mass exodus?
out of 550 or so pilots, what is a mass exodus?
what's the latest figure of pilots working their notice?
i know lots of wannabes,won't be happy about this ,but will there
be redundencies,with the publication of their new restructuring plans?
What's the future of Bacx,with Willi taking over big Ba, possible
management by out?
By my calculation, 92 pilots have left in approximately 14 months (by comparing seniority lists). In addition, there are 36 less pilots positions in the company due to the long list of changes, and with the announcement of the new 'Business Plan' there are likely to be quite a few less due to the disposal of the elite fleet 
.
I would say that in most people's book that isn't too far off a mass exodus, and I think it will be even greater given the recent announcements.
RM
.I would say that in most people's book that isn't too far off a mass exodus, and I think it will be even greater given the recent announcements.
RM