Mass Exodus at BACX
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This is a wee bit off topic, but does anybody know for sure whether the BA 'secondees' will be able to bid onto the RJ at these 'new' RJ bases (IOM, INV & EDI). Or are they off back to BA proper?
MTIA.
BF
MTIA.
BF
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Maybe I could throw in my 'tuppence worth' as a neutral party watching all this from the sidelines.
Last time I remember BA taking over another company was, I think, British Caledonian. I believe that all their Pilots were absorbed into BA mainline, and I know at least one (and I'm sure there are many more) who's a Capt on the 747 400, and who, incidentally, started off on Bandits.
So you don't have to necessarily go through the whole BA selection process to be able to operate the equipment.
Secondly, though I imagine this is all history now, any notion by BA or indeed BALPA, that because many Citiexpress crews have only operated TPs they wouldn't be suitable for heavy jets is little short of ludicrous. You only have to look at some of the most senior BA Capts (most probably reaching retirement age about now) who started on 'Budgies' or ATPs.
As someone said on a previous post - how can you tell until you've put them in the appropriate sim. If they don't hack it - then fair enough. But - where do most of the other Jet operators in the UK source their new aircrew? Exactly! Turbo - prop crews!
I know this has little to do with 'Exodus' but since the subject has been raised, it's worth the comment.
Last time I remember BA taking over another company was, I think, British Caledonian. I believe that all their Pilots were absorbed into BA mainline, and I know at least one (and I'm sure there are many more) who's a Capt on the 747 400, and who, incidentally, started off on Bandits.
So you don't have to necessarily go through the whole BA selection process to be able to operate the equipment.
Secondly, though I imagine this is all history now, any notion by BA or indeed BALPA, that because many Citiexpress crews have only operated TPs they wouldn't be suitable for heavy jets is little short of ludicrous. You only have to look at some of the most senior BA Capts (most probably reaching retirement age about now) who started on 'Budgies' or ATPs.
As someone said on a previous post - how can you tell until you've put them in the appropriate sim. If they don't hack it - then fair enough. But - where do most of the other Jet operators in the UK source their new aircrew? Exactly! Turbo - prop crews!
I know this has little to do with 'Exodus' but since the subject has been raised, it's worth the comment.
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normal_nigel, what an arrogant post.
Turbo prop drivers are all "flying club wannabees" Really? When was the last time you flew anything totally manually, with steam driven instruments, no RNAV on a non-precision approach down to minima's in stinking weather in the middle of the night surrounded by high ground?
I'll wager that if you were put in that situation now, you'd stuff it up from start to finish. Some of the guy's I've worked with in that environment have to be amongst the best handling pilots in the industry and most likely a damn sight more experienced than you are. Button pushing it ain't.......
The air must be thin up there if you believe that the type of a/c you fly defines your competance as a pilot.
Turbo prop drivers are all "flying club wannabees" Really? When was the last time you flew anything totally manually, with steam driven instruments, no RNAV on a non-precision approach down to minima's in stinking weather in the middle of the night surrounded by high ground?
I'll wager that if you were put in that situation now, you'd stuff it up from start to finish. Some of the guy's I've worked with in that environment have to be amongst the best handling pilots in the industry and most likely a damn sight more experienced than you are. Button pushing it ain't.......
The air must be thin up there if you believe that the type of a/c you fly defines your competance as a pilot.
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brain fade
There was a 'still born' attempt to 'recover' all secondees back to mainline, in blatant contravention of the agreement between BA and BACX. However (thanks to the timely intervention of BALPA reminding the parties of their committments) secondees are currently considering their supplementary bid options, which do include IOM, INV, and EDI.
As of course is only right since, for them, it is a 'base closure'.
Difficult to say how many will bid for these locations. Could be 1 or 2, could be 20. I certainly recall, it was very popular when it was previously a mainline base.
Does this help?
There was a 'still born' attempt to 'recover' all secondees back to mainline, in blatant contravention of the agreement between BA and BACX. However (thanks to the timely intervention of BALPA reminding the parties of their committments) secondees are currently considering their supplementary bid options, which do include IOM, INV, and EDI.
As of course is only right since, for them, it is a 'base closure'.
Difficult to say how many will bid for these locations. Could be 1 or 2, could be 20. I certainly recall, it was very popular when it was previously a mainline base.
Does this help?
Last edited by Tandemrotor; 29th Mar 2005 at 10:04.
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My 2 pence worth on BACX pilots failing BA selection (solely based on PPrune threads...I have nothing to do with BA selection) is that perhaps potential applicants may not appreciate that piloting skills do not appear to be an important part of the job requirement in BA. It is all very well being the "ace of the base" in BACX or the RAF, however, that isn't what BA are looking for. I know it is a cliche, but all the buzzwords of teamwork, ability to get on with people (and bite your tongue ), CRM, "the BA Way",i.e a good knowledge of BA and its competition, go a long way to getting a job. We do employ people that aren't particularly good handlers, but we all meet the minimum standard. However, I would be interested to hear when the last hull loss occurred due to bad hands on flying. Nowadays, with airlines operating glass cockpit aircraft, and the team skills required to operate this type of equipment, accidents tend to occur because of a breakdown in these teamskills , rather than the equipment. It is merely an opinion, but judging by some of the posting on these BACX threads, might I suggest that some of the interview failures may be due to a perceived lack of these teamskills. IMHO, BA are red hot on these. Any BACX applicant with access to the BA Intranet would be doing themselves a big favour if they reviewed all this stuff (and learnt the buzzwords) if they want a job in BA mainline.
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Tandem.
Thanks for your reply.
I'm jolly glad it's not my job to sort this one out, but to a casual observer it looks a lot like there will not be enough seats to go round!
1. BACX must find new seats for all the ATP crews at GLA (except a few who'll retire probably). Base closure I suppose for these guys.
2. Also have to find seats for the ex 146 folk, must be a few of these. Most will surely plan to go on the RJ certainly at IOM & INV (unless the 'secondees' want in here too!)
3. Do something about the EDI -8 crews who lose their only a/c, guess it's base closure for them too!
The easy bit may be crewing the 4 Rj's at EDI, but if a shedload of Mainline secondees are to have these jobs, then a lot of 'our' chaps may have no job!
Now I am BACX and so plainly biased, but I think that as the 'secondees' have somewhere nice to go, 'mainline', maybe it's about time they went there. Either that or come on into CX and take our T's & C's.
Thats assuming they can pass our selection!
Thanks for your reply.
I'm jolly glad it's not my job to sort this one out, but to a casual observer it looks a lot like there will not be enough seats to go round!
1. BACX must find new seats for all the ATP crews at GLA (except a few who'll retire probably). Base closure I suppose for these guys.
2. Also have to find seats for the ex 146 folk, must be a few of these. Most will surely plan to go on the RJ certainly at IOM & INV (unless the 'secondees' want in here too!)
3. Do something about the EDI -8 crews who lose their only a/c, guess it's base closure for them too!
The easy bit may be crewing the 4 Rj's at EDI, but if a shedload of Mainline secondees are to have these jobs, then a lot of 'our' chaps may have no job!
Now I am BACX and so plainly biased, but I think that as the 'secondees' have somewhere nice to go, 'mainline', maybe it's about time they went there. Either that or come on into CX and take our T's & C's.
Thats assuming they can pass our selection!
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So BACX pilots are possibly going to become unemployed because BA pilots don't want to go back to BA? As an impartial outsider, my thoughts are:
1, How selfish of the BA pilots;
2, Why are BALPA not leaning on the BA pilots to do the decent thing?
1, How selfish of the BA pilots;
2, Why are BALPA not leaning on the BA pilots to do the decent thing?
Couldonlyaffordafiver
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BALPA did the decent thing in the first place and kept positions available in the regions for mainline pilots, which otherwise would have been taken by BACX pilots on inferior terms who would be helping to drive down terms and conditions for the rest of us.
My answer, put the BACX guys on the mainline seniority list as per CityFlyer (with appropriate GF rights). This will allow them to bid onto mainline fleets and those of us who want to fly in the regions to do so without any hassle.
You could even call the new operation British Airways Regional.
My answer, put the BACX guys on the mainline seniority list as per CityFlyer (with appropriate GF rights). This will allow them to bid onto mainline fleets and those of us who want to fly in the regions to do so without any hassle.
You could even call the new operation British Airways Regional.
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Human Factor.
I think you're correct, that would be one way of solving the problem. However would that mean that we 'lesser beings' would be admitted to mainline BA? Including those who've already 'failed' BA mainline transfer-in selection? You are correct for sure in one respect which is that a precedent was set when CityFlyer was absorbed.
Only other alternatives I can think of would be:
1. to add another aircraft type to BACX to absorb the surplus
pilots.
2. Lay some people off
3. Dramatically overcrew the existing a/c
4. Send the secondees back to mainline.
5. Something really clever from management which will do a sort
of 'Abracadabra' and 'POOF!' .....we all live happily ever after
Like I said. Glad it's not me who has to fix it. Here's hoping it ends well.
I think you're correct, that would be one way of solving the problem. However would that mean that we 'lesser beings' would be admitted to mainline BA? Including those who've already 'failed' BA mainline transfer-in selection? You are correct for sure in one respect which is that a precedent was set when CityFlyer was absorbed.
Only other alternatives I can think of would be:
1. to add another aircraft type to BACX to absorb the surplus
pilots.
2. Lay some people off
3. Dramatically overcrew the existing a/c
4. Send the secondees back to mainline.
5. Something really clever from management which will do a sort
of 'Abracadabra' and 'POOF!' .....we all live happily ever after
Like I said. Glad it's not me who has to fix it. Here's hoping it ends well.
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Hi BF, bral etc.
I really don't want this thread to deteriorate into a slagging match, (though undoubtedly it will) and I appreciate your considered comments.
All I would say is this: 18 months ago there were approximately 60 secondees, this has already reduced to 50, and this year alone (BEFORE the new business plan!) a further 6 had successful bids back to LHR. This represents, in a very short time, a cut in secondee numbers of over 25%. ALL REPLACED BY BACX PILOTS!
In other words, there has already been a considerable reduction in the NUMBER of secondees, AND THEIR PROPORTION, from the original agreement, with no accompanying reduction in the number of RJs.
That is not to say the secondees are unconcerned for our colleagues. We are. However, forgive us for turning a deaf ear to what could possibly be another shout of "wolf"!
I really don't want this thread to deteriorate into a slagging match, (though undoubtedly it will) and I appreciate your considered comments.
All I would say is this: 18 months ago there were approximately 60 secondees, this has already reduced to 50, and this year alone (BEFORE the new business plan!) a further 6 had successful bids back to LHR. This represents, in a very short time, a cut in secondee numbers of over 25%. ALL REPLACED BY BACX PILOTS!
In other words, there has already been a considerable reduction in the NUMBER of secondees, AND THEIR PROPORTION, from the original agreement, with no accompanying reduction in the number of RJs.
That is not to say the secondees are unconcerned for our colleagues. We are. However, forgive us for turning a deaf ear to what could possibly be another shout of "wolf"!
Last edited by Tandemrotor; 29th Mar 2005 at 19:16.
Human Factor's suggestion would be the most commonsense solution to the problem... mainline guys who want to stay in the regions can do so. Displaced BACX pilots able to bid onto mainline fleets. However, there is one major reason that it wouldn't be adopted... because it is the correct commonsense solution!
We are facing some very testing times ahead in BACX. Many of us are facing another enforced fleet and/or base move. The genius who came up with this latest masterplan obviously doesn't care that many families, already uprooted from previous 'plans', will face even more problems. The fact is that they really don't care at all about the human aspect to these never-ending changes. Furthermore, crews who are displaced will likely also have enforced seat changes due to the ever dwindling number of vacancies within BACX. Their pay will only be fully protected for one year, then it rapidly reverts to first officers salary, while the crew will probably have added hardship of commuting costs if they elect not to further disrupt their families lives.
Seconded BA pilots surely have a duty to the rest of the pilot community at BACX. It is in their interests to actively lobby BACC to come up with a solution to this unending shambles. Meanwhile, endless CVs are winging their way to all and sundry... perhaps this was the intention of the latest 'management plan'.
(edited to add) Tandem, I don't quite understand how this could be shouting 'wolf'. Also, I don't expect it to degenerate into a slanging match.. as I said, (or implied) we are ALL affected by this new plan; it's up to us to become more vocal as a joint community to force a more acceptable solution.
RM
We are facing some very testing times ahead in BACX. Many of us are facing another enforced fleet and/or base move. The genius who came up with this latest masterplan obviously doesn't care that many families, already uprooted from previous 'plans', will face even more problems. The fact is that they really don't care at all about the human aspect to these never-ending changes. Furthermore, crews who are displaced will likely also have enforced seat changes due to the ever dwindling number of vacancies within BACX. Their pay will only be fully protected for one year, then it rapidly reverts to first officers salary, while the crew will probably have added hardship of commuting costs if they elect not to further disrupt their families lives.
Seconded BA pilots surely have a duty to the rest of the pilot community at BACX. It is in their interests to actively lobby BACC to come up with a solution to this unending shambles. Meanwhile, endless CVs are winging their way to all and sundry... perhaps this was the intention of the latest 'management plan'.
(edited to add) Tandem, I don't quite understand how this could be shouting 'wolf'. Also, I don't expect it to degenerate into a slanging match.. as I said, (or implied) we are ALL affected by this new plan; it's up to us to become more vocal as a joint community to force a more acceptable solution.
RM
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Common senortiy list has got to be the best option. If I take redunancy now and then was successful in applying to mainline in 6 months then who is £5000 down in cash, BACX. Also remeber that unless management really turn it around then the business will continue to shrink. Who's next DHC8 then the 145 then the Company.
Not only Michael Palin went full circle!
Not only Michael Palin went full circle!
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Gleetings, honoulable gentlemen. May i point out that secondee who is at Manchestah may not wish to go anywhere else in regions. So go back London. Agleement not allow new bids from BA, ah, so, reduction in numbahs.
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Tandem,
I've been reading your contributions for years now, and what has become abundantly apparent is that you labour under one (false) premise only, that is: BA pilots are owed a job for life.
BACX' business plan, good or bad, represents that company's existing economic reality. You don't have any right to be exempt from its consequences. OK, you were in the regions with BAR, and you wanted to stay in BHX, fine. Now if your aircraft or region disappears, what gives you the right to claim a stake in another region (in which you have no ties), especially since you could move back to mainline?
You want two options left open to you and, in the process, are quite happy to remove all options from your colleagues at BACX.
Tell me, who told you you couldn't ever be made redundant?
BA? I doubt it.
'round midnight
I've been reading your contributions for years now, and what has become abundantly apparent is that you labour under one (false) premise only, that is: BA pilots are owed a job for life.
BACX' business plan, good or bad, represents that company's existing economic reality. You don't have any right to be exempt from its consequences. OK, you were in the regions with BAR, and you wanted to stay in BHX, fine. Now if your aircraft or region disappears, what gives you the right to claim a stake in another region (in which you have no ties), especially since you could move back to mainline?
You want two options left open to you and, in the process, are quite happy to remove all options from your colleagues at BACX.
Tell me, who told you you couldn't ever be made redundant?
BA? I doubt it.
'round midnight
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Tell me, who told you you couldn't ever be made redundant?
However, in my experience, one point that BA always play up (vis a vis are they a good employer or not) is never having made any involuntary redundancies during restructuring.
Make of that what you will.
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'round
Actually, I labour under no such illusion. I confess to being fortunate in this game. I have never been made redundant, but then again perhaps it's not just luck. Perhaps I have been careful in choosing my 3 employers!
You said:
"Now if your aircraft or region disappears, what gives you the right to claim a stake in another region"
But as you know, neither 'disappeared' did they?
They were simply given to another part of the organisation owned by my employer! And the secondees were part of the agreement that allowed that to happen.
Does this help?
And could you just tell me what 'options' precisely. I want 'removed' from my colleagues at BACX?
Actually, I labour under no such illusion. I confess to being fortunate in this game. I have never been made redundant, but then again perhaps it's not just luck. Perhaps I have been careful in choosing my 3 employers!
You said:
"Now if your aircraft or region disappears, what gives you the right to claim a stake in another region"
But as you know, neither 'disappeared' did they?
They were simply given to another part of the organisation owned by my employer! And the secondees were part of the agreement that allowed that to happen.
Does this help?
And could you just tell me what 'options' precisely. I want 'removed' from my colleagues at BACX?
"And the secondees were part of the agreement that allowed that to happen."
How gracious of you to let your employer decide what is best for the company that you are employed by to make, I am glad you are in charge , so I am sure is your employer.
Maybe you should look up the employee/employer thingy a bit .
Tail, dog ,wagging, re-arrange and make a well known phrase or saying....
Balpa , maybe they should get back to counting paper clips in head office and let BA get on with managing the company.
Same old story...... a few union do gooders ( god bless them) are so good at management that they control billions of pounds worth of business rather than try to feather their own nest..........doh, spot the deliberate sarcasm.
Wait for it ..... BAR were the only bit of BA making money, kept the airline afloat for years they did, there WERE our jobs they were , we want ,we want sounds a bit like my 3 yr old
How gracious of you to let your employer decide what is best for the company that you are employed by to make, I am glad you are in charge , so I am sure is your employer.
Maybe you should look up the employee/employer thingy a bit .
Tail, dog ,wagging, re-arrange and make a well known phrase or saying....
Balpa , maybe they should get back to counting paper clips in head office and let BA get on with managing the company.
Same old story...... a few union do gooders ( god bless them) are so good at management that they control billions of pounds worth of business rather than try to feather their own nest..........doh, spot the deliberate sarcasm.
Wait for it ..... BAR were the only bit of BA making money, kept the airline afloat for years they did, there WERE our jobs they were , we want ,we want sounds a bit like my 3 yr old
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Let's try to get this discussion back on thread shall we. The title is "Mass Exodus at BACX".Suggesting people are leaving in droves? - Correct?
Indeed, only a week ago rhythm method told us; "By my calculation, 92 pilots have left in approximately 14 months".This sounds like a company with a pretty high turnover of pilots, possibly confirmed by the numbers currently working their notice?
So the question is this: Is the suggested return of mainline secondees to LHR:
A) A short term fix to avoid GENUINE redundancies?
Or is it more simply:
B) An 'opportunity' to fulfil a long term aspiration to wriggle out of an agreement? (an aspiration illustrated admirably by most BACX posters on pprune!)
An agreement which MUST have suited BACX 3 years ago, since they signed up to it (secondees and all!)The answer to that question will influence the response to the following:
"Seconded BA pilots surely have a duty to the rest of the pilot community at BACX. It is in their interests to actively lobby BACC to come up with a solution to this unending shambles."
By the way: Bearing in mind the management of BACX MUST have known the impact of this reorganisation at least 2-3 months ago, can anybody tell me;
when did BACX cease recruitment?
PS. I'm not even a seconded pilot, but mine WAS one of the 160 jobs handed to BACX, SOME of whose pilots then revelled in the fact that they could do the job sooooooo much cheaper than us! As has been said before, Those jobs DID NOT just disappear, they were sold to the lowest bidder!
Which probably brings us full circle, back to the title of this thread!
Indeed, only a week ago rhythm method told us; "By my calculation, 92 pilots have left in approximately 14 months".This sounds like a company with a pretty high turnover of pilots, possibly confirmed by the numbers currently working their notice?
So the question is this: Is the suggested return of mainline secondees to LHR:
A) A short term fix to avoid GENUINE redundancies?
Or is it more simply:
B) An 'opportunity' to fulfil a long term aspiration to wriggle out of an agreement? (an aspiration illustrated admirably by most BACX posters on pprune!)
An agreement which MUST have suited BACX 3 years ago, since they signed up to it (secondees and all!)The answer to that question will influence the response to the following:
"Seconded BA pilots surely have a duty to the rest of the pilot community at BACX. It is in their interests to actively lobby BACC to come up with a solution to this unending shambles."
By the way: Bearing in mind the management of BACX MUST have known the impact of this reorganisation at least 2-3 months ago, can anybody tell me;
when did BACX cease recruitment?
PS. I'm not even a seconded pilot, but mine WAS one of the 160 jobs handed to BACX, SOME of whose pilots then revelled in the fact that they could do the job sooooooo much cheaper than us! As has been said before, Those jobs DID NOT just disappear, they were sold to the lowest bidder!
Which probably brings us full circle, back to the title of this thread!
Last edited by 4468; 5th Apr 2005 at 09:42.