Number ONE
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Number ONE
Been thinking(that explains the pain)...We've all been talking from time to time about guys who are number "something
on seniority list,and it just made me wonder...How does it look to be numero uno in a nice,big company like BA,UAL and likes.
What kind of life do those(you?)guys have?I guess some of you probably know some of them...What one needs to do to get to such heights,and how long does he hold his/hers(doubt it's ever been a SHE,really)position.What and where does he fly and for how much
on seniority list,and it just made me wonder...How does it look to be numero uno in a nice,big company like BA,UAL and likes.
What kind of life do those(you?)guys have?I guess some of you probably know some of them...What one needs to do to get to such heights,and how long does he hold his/hers(doubt it's ever been a SHE,really)position.What and where does he fly and for how much
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Seniority list
I'm not a pilot at a major airline, so my info could use a bit of refining. Here goes...
I seen the seniority list (the WHOLE list) for AA back during the year 2000-ish time frame. This was just after the TWA pilots were incorporated into the AA seniority system. It was about 75 pages in Excel spreadsheet form.
It went like this:
Seniority #, Name, Hire Date, 60th Birthday
00001, Joe AA Pilot, 3/25/65, 1/18/2005
...
12000, Bob TWA F/O, 5/15/00, 8/20/2040
Every 20 or so AA pilots, after seniority number, say...1000, they would put in the most senior TWA pilot. And so on...until they reached the most recent AA pilot hired, then they stuffed the last 2500 or so TWA pilots to the end of the seniority list.
My mentor, the guy who flies for AA and showed me this list was around seniority #6000 something. I then asked him what it would be like to the one of the top 200, perhaps even the #1 seniority position. His answer was that those top 200 guys are scheduled for less than half the year, get 180 days off and 180+ sick days available. They get paid probably US$200k a year, call in sick for 180 days a year and have the rest of the year as scheduled days off.
What a life. Getting paid to stay away from work, if one chooses to do so.
I seen the seniority list (the WHOLE list) for AA back during the year 2000-ish time frame. This was just after the TWA pilots were incorporated into the AA seniority system. It was about 75 pages in Excel spreadsheet form.
It went like this:
Seniority #, Name, Hire Date, 60th Birthday
00001, Joe AA Pilot, 3/25/65, 1/18/2005
...
12000, Bob TWA F/O, 5/15/00, 8/20/2040
Every 20 or so AA pilots, after seniority number, say...1000, they would put in the most senior TWA pilot. And so on...until they reached the most recent AA pilot hired, then they stuffed the last 2500 or so TWA pilots to the end of the seniority list.
My mentor, the guy who flies for AA and showed me this list was around seniority #6000 something. I then asked him what it would be like to the one of the top 200, perhaps even the #1 seniority position. His answer was that those top 200 guys are scheduled for less than half the year, get 180 days off and 180+ sick days available. They get paid probably US$200k a year, call in sick for 180 days a year and have the rest of the year as scheduled days off.
What a life. Getting paid to stay away from work, if one chooses to do so.
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Ernest K. Gann, in his book 'Fate Is The Hunter', had a fair bit to say about the numbers system of seniority.
Not sure about this but I think, when he retired, EKG was Number One with AA or somesuch USA major.
Not sure about this but I think, when he retired, EKG was Number One with AA or somesuch USA major.
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Now,what was my question...Ahh,yes...Mr.GDPF,you mean to tell me that they pay those guys 200K/a year to sit home if they wish?Nevertheles,that's not my focus...I'm more interested in their routes and planes available.I guess it's long haul...That produces another q.,why would someone sit home if they can go do what they like,then have a fortnight of R&R at some small island in the sun,and after that do what they like,again 
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I am not an expert, however, the way I have heard it is that some airline pilots like to be paid a lot to do as little as possible! Hence the tiny amount of scheduled trips, calling in to ops and reporting unable to fly and taking the rest of the year off. And of course, some pilots love to fly and make the most of their careers by flying until the day before his or her 60th birthday.
Being at the top of the list must mean that you have been with the company since the EARLY days. The only way that you move up is when the pilots above you retire and move out. Possibly, a pilot started their life as a fresh school graduate, maybe thinking about going to college, was placed into the military (by choice or draft, prior to their intended career path) and have been flying airplanes ever since. In this case, it is the only field in which they may have training and are involved with so much training and experience that they do not want to have a career change since it means starting a new career path from scratch (and the initial low pay as well). This airline pilot may possibly think that it is just a job "driving the bus," and only want to go on trips when in the mood.
The AA seniority list, I believe, did not list airplane type; I could be wrong about this fact. Routes were based on where your base/domicile was located (eg you want to fly to Hawaii, ask for Los Angeles as a base; Germany--ask for New York as a base). For instance, I can give you an example of one guy who had flown the 727 since day 1 with the company. Although he was not the #1 seniority guy, he had been with the company a long time, probably 30 some odd years and was high up there in the seniority list. He attempted to upgrade to 757/767 at one point, however, he had 3 check airman with him in the sim (instead of a fellow line pilot), one serving as f/o, one as simulator operator and one watching/evaluating. When the f/o (flying) did not follow his repeated verbal command, he said something to the effect of "hold it! you check airmen are probably going to can me if you get the chance so it is time to get out, forget about the upgrade!" This guy continued to fly the 727 until the fleet was retired, at which point, he retired. His high seniority number on airplane type basically allowed him any 727 route out of any base (he was at MIA), which at one time he was flying Caribbean routes to Grenada, St. Croix, Belize...out for like 2 days then back home for a week. However, his high seniority number allowed him to choose basically ANY airplane type within the company and be able to obtain a great route on that new type. All he would need is the upgrade training and some time with the bid sheet to select that great route.
Some pilots like to retire in style, like taxiing their airplane through the fire truck water cannon spray. I've heard some guys want to retire without having to risk their neck, job and pilot certificate during those last challenging months, so they take only the easy trips with highly experienced crew and call off the rest.
The idea that the most senior guy flies the most complex, highest paying airplane type and route--sometimes it does not work that way. Possibly it is due to having to spend too much time away from home, which becomes more important after you have achieved the 180 days off guarantee (scheduled to work less than 15 days a month, and have more than 15 days off a month). Maybe the biggest heaviest glass flight deck jet gives commanders gray hair stress when they're over water, 500+ miles from the closest runway, which they do not want to experience. Or perhaps (like the 727 guy mentioned above) they enjoy a certain airplane type and have mastered it and feel comfortable only with that type, even though they could make more money on a different type.
I have heard of an AA 777 captain that was younger than my mentor, an age of about 30 to 35--commanding a 777! I know that age sounds unrealistically old for many non-North American carriers, however, that's how it works here--have to serve your time on the right seat and build your seniority. My mentor has served AA for 15 years and he is still on the right seat (insufficient seniority for a non-reserve 777 captain seat these days (reserve=you are on-call/airport standby). Retiring of the 727 hurt his seniority somewhat, plus the TWA pilot seniority merger moved him down a little further. The young longhaul captains may choose the trips which keep one away from home for a while because they want to go to South America and spend 5 days at a time away from home because they have yet to build a family, establish a home (as in buy a house and live in that area for years),...
This is what I have heard of how it works at AA. Other carriers may have different results (eg Northwest pilots may want to fly the 747-200/DC-10 after 30 years of seniority because it allows them to escape Minneapolis for Honolulu for a 7 day layover).
For all airline pilots, it's a big numbers game with dollar signs (pound signs, euro signs...) highlighting the routes to choose for next month. These guys get the bid sheet for the next month, sit down and just like tracing an electrical circuit, find the route to bid which gives them as little time away from home, minimize flying and maximize pay. Think about the responsibility involved, cost of being sent away from the family,...and you will realize the reasons for being entitled to the great numerically (but not so great in terms of being away from home and the family) pay.
In my words, basically seniority works like a step ladder, with each step being an airplane type. When you are on the first step, you might be flying an ATR, however, your seniority plays a part in which routes you are senior enough to attain on that type. For instance, your seniority may be so low, that you are on reserve for the entire month, or perhaps you are a little bit above the bottom of the list so you can fly the New York-Philadelphia during peak traffic hours and live in a beautiful Meadowlands, New Jersey, maybe it could be called an apartment, with a great view of XYZ hazardous waste facility. Now that you've somehow endured the pleasant New York area, you have enough seniority to bid the next airplane type, but wait a second--you spent 5 years on the New York scene and are more senior than the f/o guys on airplane type CRJ, so you can skip step ladder step #2 and go to step #3, B737. Sorry, not enough seniority to live where you want to live (Chicago) so forget about the Chicago-Dallas route, so you do the Chicago-New York and now that you are getting paid a bit more now, you find that you can live in a rented house in Queens in New York. A year or two after 737 f/o training, you see that your seniority can get you a captain seat on a CRJ flying from Seattle, however, it is a pay cut and you'll have to live in a crash pad at the end of the Sea-Tac airport runway because the route finishes in different cities each night you fly. However, if you take the CRJ command, then you eventually get a stable schedule and able to actually rent a real house, instead of living in crash pads and down-route hotels. 2 years as CRJ skipper and you bid the 777 out of Dallas and get it. You have to move to Dallas now, however, that is fine because you are actually going to be paid around $75k a year because your 10 years with the airline and now on 777 type makes your paycheck a little thicker. You stick it out on the 777 f/o reserve bid, even though you will only have to be on reserve for the first 6 months, then you start flying as cruise relief pilot to London, which is international flying and you get paid a little extra for that.
.....
And on and on and on...airline pilots will ALWAYS take steps to advance their pay, career and lifestyle. At the beginning, you have to serve your time, however once you get into a good airplane type and a good base of your choice, the work gets easier (can anyone say flying is always difficult?!) and pay gets better.
Sorry for being a bit verbose. When I say "the way I've heard it," this takes into account 4 years at a university which emphasizes airline pilot education, plus my AA pilot mentor's input, so I have not filled your brain with stuff like some of those shenanigan posters sometimes put up throughout this board. I have been waiting for the day to start at the bottom of the seniority list when I go to ground school next month for a small freight-flying outfit and have plenty of time to pack my bags and do other things--like this ridiculously long, maybe informative, post on pprune!
Being at the top of the list must mean that you have been with the company since the EARLY days. The only way that you move up is when the pilots above you retire and move out. Possibly, a pilot started their life as a fresh school graduate, maybe thinking about going to college, was placed into the military (by choice or draft, prior to their intended career path) and have been flying airplanes ever since. In this case, it is the only field in which they may have training and are involved with so much training and experience that they do not want to have a career change since it means starting a new career path from scratch (and the initial low pay as well). This airline pilot may possibly think that it is just a job "driving the bus," and only want to go on trips when in the mood.
The AA seniority list, I believe, did not list airplane type; I could be wrong about this fact. Routes were based on where your base/domicile was located (eg you want to fly to Hawaii, ask for Los Angeles as a base; Germany--ask for New York as a base). For instance, I can give you an example of one guy who had flown the 727 since day 1 with the company. Although he was not the #1 seniority guy, he had been with the company a long time, probably 30 some odd years and was high up there in the seniority list. He attempted to upgrade to 757/767 at one point, however, he had 3 check airman with him in the sim (instead of a fellow line pilot), one serving as f/o, one as simulator operator and one watching/evaluating. When the f/o (flying) did not follow his repeated verbal command, he said something to the effect of "hold it! you check airmen are probably going to can me if you get the chance so it is time to get out, forget about the upgrade!" This guy continued to fly the 727 until the fleet was retired, at which point, he retired. His high seniority number on airplane type basically allowed him any 727 route out of any base (he was at MIA), which at one time he was flying Caribbean routes to Grenada, St. Croix, Belize...out for like 2 days then back home for a week. However, his high seniority number allowed him to choose basically ANY airplane type within the company and be able to obtain a great route on that new type. All he would need is the upgrade training and some time with the bid sheet to select that great route.
Some pilots like to retire in style, like taxiing their airplane through the fire truck water cannon spray. I've heard some guys want to retire without having to risk their neck, job and pilot certificate during those last challenging months, so they take only the easy trips with highly experienced crew and call off the rest.
The idea that the most senior guy flies the most complex, highest paying airplane type and route--sometimes it does not work that way. Possibly it is due to having to spend too much time away from home, which becomes more important after you have achieved the 180 days off guarantee (scheduled to work less than 15 days a month, and have more than 15 days off a month). Maybe the biggest heaviest glass flight deck jet gives commanders gray hair stress when they're over water, 500+ miles from the closest runway, which they do not want to experience. Or perhaps (like the 727 guy mentioned above) they enjoy a certain airplane type and have mastered it and feel comfortable only with that type, even though they could make more money on a different type.
I have heard of an AA 777 captain that was younger than my mentor, an age of about 30 to 35--commanding a 777! I know that age sounds unrealistically old for many non-North American carriers, however, that's how it works here--have to serve your time on the right seat and build your seniority. My mentor has served AA for 15 years and he is still on the right seat (insufficient seniority for a non-reserve 777 captain seat these days (reserve=you are on-call/airport standby). Retiring of the 727 hurt his seniority somewhat, plus the TWA pilot seniority merger moved him down a little further. The young longhaul captains may choose the trips which keep one away from home for a while because they want to go to South America and spend 5 days at a time away from home because they have yet to build a family, establish a home (as in buy a house and live in that area for years),...
This is what I have heard of how it works at AA. Other carriers may have different results (eg Northwest pilots may want to fly the 747-200/DC-10 after 30 years of seniority because it allows them to escape Minneapolis for Honolulu for a 7 day layover).
For all airline pilots, it's a big numbers game with dollar signs (pound signs, euro signs...) highlighting the routes to choose for next month. These guys get the bid sheet for the next month, sit down and just like tracing an electrical circuit, find the route to bid which gives them as little time away from home, minimize flying and maximize pay. Think about the responsibility involved, cost of being sent away from the family,...and you will realize the reasons for being entitled to the great numerically (but not so great in terms of being away from home and the family) pay.
In my words, basically seniority works like a step ladder, with each step being an airplane type. When you are on the first step, you might be flying an ATR, however, your seniority plays a part in which routes you are senior enough to attain on that type. For instance, your seniority may be so low, that you are on reserve for the entire month, or perhaps you are a little bit above the bottom of the list so you can fly the New York-Philadelphia during peak traffic hours and live in a beautiful Meadowlands, New Jersey, maybe it could be called an apartment, with a great view of XYZ hazardous waste facility. Now that you've somehow endured the pleasant New York area, you have enough seniority to bid the next airplane type, but wait a second--you spent 5 years on the New York scene and are more senior than the f/o guys on airplane type CRJ, so you can skip step ladder step #2 and go to step #3, B737. Sorry, not enough seniority to live where you want to live (Chicago) so forget about the Chicago-Dallas route, so you do the Chicago-New York and now that you are getting paid a bit more now, you find that you can live in a rented house in Queens in New York. A year or two after 737 f/o training, you see that your seniority can get you a captain seat on a CRJ flying from Seattle, however, it is a pay cut and you'll have to live in a crash pad at the end of the Sea-Tac airport runway because the route finishes in different cities each night you fly. However, if you take the CRJ command, then you eventually get a stable schedule and able to actually rent a real house, instead of living in crash pads and down-route hotels. 2 years as CRJ skipper and you bid the 777 out of Dallas and get it. You have to move to Dallas now, however, that is fine because you are actually going to be paid around $75k a year because your 10 years with the airline and now on 777 type makes your paycheck a little thicker. You stick it out on the 777 f/o reserve bid, even though you will only have to be on reserve for the first 6 months, then you start flying as cruise relief pilot to London, which is international flying and you get paid a little extra for that.
.....
And on and on and on...airline pilots will ALWAYS take steps to advance their pay, career and lifestyle. At the beginning, you have to serve your time, however once you get into a good airplane type and a good base of your choice, the work gets easier (can anyone say flying is always difficult?!) and pay gets better.
Sorry for being a bit verbose. When I say "the way I've heard it," this takes into account 4 years at a university which emphasizes airline pilot education, plus my AA pilot mentor's input, so I have not filled your brain with stuff like some of those shenanigan posters sometimes put up throughout this board. I have been waiting for the day to start at the bottom of the seniority list when I go to ground school next month for a small freight-flying outfit and have plenty of time to pack my bags and do other things--like this ridiculously long, maybe informative, post on pprune!
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GDPF,you've been quite clear...It seems as a fairly complexed thing to do in such a big airline.I suppose it eventually pays off...
I've heard different sorts of stories,although regarding an uncomparebly different airline,and system...AA has a system that,I guess,other majors use,in more or less unchanged form and shape...They fly,do if for flying sake,then get family,get bored with it,just try to make a buck stick to 'em,and get as much as days off...In the end,it all comes in form of a $(enter currency used in your habitat)...Too bad if you ask me,but,heck,no one does
LOL
I've heard different sorts of stories,although regarding an uncomparebly different airline,and system...AA has a system that,I guess,other majors use,in more or less unchanged form and shape...They fly,do if for flying sake,then get family,get bored with it,just try to make a buck stick to 'em,and get as much as days off...In the end,it all comes in form of a $(enter currency used in your habitat)...Too bad if you ask me,but,heck,no one does
LOL
