I agree with you Jack11111. From what I've seen, the more nervous is the fellow next to me the more unnecessary inputs are done.

I'm sure the nervous explanation is true in many cases, (as a light plane instructor, new students is where I saw the same thing) but not all. For example, the guy in the video with the aft-facing camera in front of the yoke, is an airshow pilot. Pretty sure he's not cowed by the guppy.

I flew both the VC10 and the 707 as a line pilot and as an instructor. I thought the VC10 was the more stable of the two, it had very powerful controls and was a very steady instrument platform. It felt solid and predictable. The controls were powered by electrically driven PCUs with artificial feel that I thought gave heavier control forces than were strictly necessary.

The 707 had a very clever manual tab system system for the ailerons and elevators with hydraulic boost for the rudder. It was the more sensitive of the two, you could feel the aircraft better and it was the more satisfying one to fly. Whereas the VC10 was more forgiving when mishandled, the 707 certainly told you when you didn't do it right.

On both types, I took great pleasure in flying them with the minimum of control movements - it not only produced a smoother ride but was marginally more economical (every control movement slightly increases drag), while this may not have been measurable, it certainly gave me greater satisfaction. As Dave Gittins quoted in his post 31, John Farley said, "Over-control is a common problem with learning to fly, almost regardless of the task but with experience we get better at relaxing, better at trimming, better at letting it fly itself for a bit and then coaxing it back to the desired state. In fact better at becoming a low gain (relaxed) pilot rather than being a high gain (overactive) one. Airplanes take time to respond and it is a waste of time to oscillate controls.”

I was a great believer in trimming correctly, not only did it let the aircraft fly itself but it saved a lot of effort and gave one more time to think.

I once flew with a co-pilot to whom I gave the sector into Istanbul. It was a calm day yet his control inputs became larger, faster and more furious the closer we came to the ground. After the landing, I said to him, 'Just hold the controls lightly and feel what I do'. I than waggled them as furiously as he had done on the approach and landing. He was completely oblivious to what he had been doing and he didn't believe me. It was only when the flight engineer confirmed that what I had shown him was indeed correct that he sort of believed me, but I don't think he was convinced. I told him it was fortunate his inputs were so fast that the aircraft had had no time to respond to each one but that the average of his inputs was about right and so it had flown roughly where he wanted!

Although he had many hours on type, he had a distintly below average record.

We then talked about being self-aware, to think about his control movements and to take time to trim accurately. It would make his life much easier!

I hope that does not happen during approach down to real minimums. If that happens frequently I would then rather travel by train.

TOGA Tap,

I don't think it is that common, mainly just a few individuals who would probably benefit from some extra tuition. Most people I flew with were very smooth and precise on the controls.

I occasionally fly around Colorado Springs in a 160 HP 172S. Last year on a 100 F day flying from Pueblo (4729) to Meadowlake (6874) I was acutely conscious of how much the slightest incorrect amount of elevator or rudder added to drag and stopped the climb (that was only about 100 fpm at best) or risked overheating the engine with the increased power requirement.

That's the stuff that teaches you about aeroplane performance, far more than bimbling around from Redhill. That's when you learn about setting best trim (elevator and rudder) and using fingertips on the controls.

Dave,

Hear, hear! It also applies to large aircraft when doing performance climbs on C of A airtests.

Pressures!!!
 

In the 1970s at a gliding club, we advised students to trim for airspeed, and then hold the stick the way a Duchess would hold a dustman's d!ck.
Finger and thumb, pressures only.

I was told that an aircraft likes to fly unless a pilot disturbs it, but helicopters have always to be saved from crashing..... or words like that.

Yes, I was too. Having flown several variants of the 737, I don’t think it was twitchy but it did have a lot of control authority. In that video I see pretty much full roll control being used in one direction, then full control in the other: in the couple of thousand hours I spent in that airframe, I can’t recollect having to use full deflection outside of some sim exercise. I think the second application was almost all to counteract the effects of the first! PIO by any other name...

Is there a risk that this churning on the controls could result in a similar failure to AA587?

Aircraft weigh many tons, that's a lot of momentum going on. How on earth do people think they need churning like that?

Do you mean airplane? as a helicopter is also an aircraft ( Sort of) :}
:ouch:

Someone needs to politely tell him that high gain inputs are fine for an extra 300 with neutral stability in all axes, it's not in a modern transport category aircraft certified to FAR25.

for the non-test community, a good article covering high gain low gain pilots is here:

http://www.innerairmanship.com/blog/2016/07/01/are-you-a-low-gain-pilot/

High gain - strafing run on ground target,re-establishing wings level from a twinkle roll.

Low gain - large aircraft approach, large aircraft level off, a well flown ils

Pugilistic Animus,

You are right of course. But I did not mean an airplane, I meant an aeroplane.

I can guaran-goddamn-tee you that these aren't the right control inputs for an Extra 300 either! In non-aerobatic flight, I don't know that I ever moved the stick more than an eighth of an inch at a time. If that.

I don't care if I were an FO or a CPT on such I flight I would say 'stop that'

ah aeroplane!

What a charming expression.

I prefer that which a Boeing Seattle instructor pilot told me. That was to hold the control wheel as gently as if you were milking a mouse.
Clearly the subject of PIO has brought quite a few Pprune contributors out of the wood work. It must be a lot more widespread addiction than one would have first thought. Like heavy smokers, gentle admonishment simply will not get through to the addicted. Well chosen words are more effective. Thrashing the control column around as soon as the autopilot is disengaged can have its own unintended consequences and if nothing else, is poor airmanship.

On a similar vein (no pun intended:O ) when established on an stabilised OEI approach on the bus with no AP it's an interesting exercise to challenge students to see for how many seconds they can keep their hands and feet off the controls and still have it accurately fly alt/az profiles. When they've nailed the trim, they free up brain space for the go around, circle whatever.

Those videos are pitiful, just pitiful

Agreed. But the wonderful Biggles type drama of man battling the elements is mana to the great unwashed.

Here's another fine example (starting at 50 sec in the movie)

Including rudder this time

Here's what it looks like from the outside. Is it over controlling, leading to PIO in the yawing plane, or is the A380 that unstable??

I've just given up and accepted this is now a fact of life in airline flying, having seen it on both the B737 and the A320. I'm prematurely turning into a grumpy old man trying to persuade people against their will why this is so wrong. I've just decided it's easier to let it be, it's like fighting the tide.

Now I just mutter under my breath on short final:

What are people's thoughts on this technique? Beginning at 13:50.

For starters I can't see there being a great deal of turbulence there with the wind coming off the sea. Fixed wing A/C are inherently stable. He was in a high wing so lateral stability should be good. I say be lazy and let the a/c do the work. It will fly itself, as mentioned in previous posts.

From when he started doing the "Mayo" to when he touched down, the mayo would have been rock solid in that short time. He did appear to have nailed the centre line which was good.

If he was a pilot carrying out very low level ops performing like that, his left arm would probably have given up after the first sortie.

Maybe it's me being too old and out of touch. Please correct me should I be.

Heh... starting at 13:50 and for a while, it seemed to me about normal for a gusty day in a light plane (never flown a Caravan, but speaking generally...) and then it got to the part just before the flare and holy schnike! :ooh:

Maybe the pilots posting this stuff online do this intentionally for dramatic effect to gain attention and admiration? After all, if you make very small and gentle inputs it doesn't look so difficult and exciting.

Look at the death grip on that side-stick! Then notice his finger tip control of the nose wheel steering. Go figure.

If you want to prove your balls are as big as your ego, go military rather than cash 100k oF mummy/daddy/rbs cash down the integrated route.

Got a lot of time for the guys who work their ways through modular, scraping time doing local instruction and single engine/light twin pax stuff, even crop dusting, than the guys proving the big man on YouTube by waggling a stick wearing raybans whilst the computer makes hight calls.

A lot more finesse and passion for the job

Well not all military pilots are ace pilots. To have flown with some ex fighter pilots, some of them were very average to say the least... I guess pulling 7G and flying raw data are 2 different skills. :}

Quote from John Farley's book A View from the Hover: My Life in Aviation:

pineteam,

I think you are right. I remember one very well qualified ex-RAF Lightning pilot who clearly had done well as a fighter pilot, but who, when confronted with difficult conditions at Chicago, was unable to cope. As a fighter pilot, under the direction of a ground controller he had obviously been well able to perform, but maybe with only a few tasks at any one time. In the civil environment, when faced with the multiple inputs of flying on instruments in a three-crew aircraft in a hectic ATC environment in a complex area in bad weather he experienced great difficulty. These same issues had arisen during his simulator training, but they became a major problem during route training.

Was this a limited ability to multi-task? He continually forgot things and over-controlled. He did not complete the course.

Not all mil blokes fly fast pointy things .. my point being, if all you have ever done is the dutchess, a JOCC then straight onto a 73 or 320, I'm not surprised at the result. You haven't had long enough to finesse your trade. Please don't let the parochial I once flew with an ex military bloke who was useless tar us all with the same brush.

I'm sure those with a background in SEP or twin flight instruction for a few years wouldn't struggle, nor would a guy who has done a few years crop spraying. You really earn your spurs during those early first hours.