ATC asked us to intercept a 10 mile Final.
 

The IAF was at 14.5 miles, and there was no specific point at 10 miles.
I asked the Captain if he could insert a PBD for me and the Captain told me to just select some heading/track and use judgement.

Is there an accurate way, other than inserting a PBD, to intercept at 10 miles?

Thanks guys.


Edit. A320 btw.

You could do a point-to-point plot on an E6B...

TLAR.......

Depends... On how the approach is build...

Your captain is right though, use judgement, half a mile here or there really doesn't matter in this case. Concentrate on your energy management.

Most of us KOS's would aim a bit to the side of the IAF and then SHIG if we couldn't TLAR it.:)

Assuming you don't have an FMS or don't want to use it for a PBD, think of the ILS as a VOR radial. You are currently at a distance x on radial a, you want to be at distance 10nm on radial b (final approach course).

Stick the Nav Display on VOR Rose mode. The larger distance (assume it's your present position) is the outer ring. For example, you are at 20 miles.

You want to go to 10nm point, so that will be halfway inside the ring. 5nm would be 75% of the way to the centre of the Rose ring, and so on. Situated on on your Final Approach Course.

Using your finger or something semi-straight (:ooh:) draw a line between your position at the outside edge of the Rose and the position of your 10nm point on the ILS.

Shift that straight edge to the centre of the Rose and read off your approximate track.

Turn on to that heading and adjust a little bit for the 20 secs of calculation time and wind.

If you really want to be deadly accurate then you can do a recalculation just before halfway (when the ILS DME reads 15nm in this case). If the new value is different, double the track error and adjust.


Edit to say: I agree with the other posters - stick it on an approximate heading and focus on the overall situational awareness and energy management instead of trying to get too accurate in this particular case. I'm also A320 btw.

Use the ND!!

Set a HDG that will make the green line cut the extended runway centerline at approximately 10 miles from the runway.

easy. avoid PBDing at low altitude or in terminal airspace if you can.

It is like being directed direct to the VOR but everybody knows they will give you vectors well before reaching it. Instead of DIR TO, keep the FPLN depicted as it was, for the vectors, and use HDG and your ND to track to the VOR. If you use the FMGS, vertical navigation will be meaningless. With HDG, using just the FCU and your ND the donut will give sensible information.

Tactical use of HDG is a good tool, specially when you have an ND with a map

Pilots use TLAR. Computer jocks need PBDs. And besides - I thought it was
L'Airboos procedure that no UNNECESSARY typing into the box be done when
in the TML area and/or B100 during climb or descent.

I employ the SIAS method after I've decided TLAR. As I get closer if I have to
tidy up by a handful of degrees here and there I do.

- Scuse me ignorance BOAC but isn't "SHIG" slang for a rubbish night of sex
with a slag? http://serve.mysmiley.net/tongue/tongue0026.gif

Surely there's an ipad app for this??

Just follow the line, and sing the company song at the appropriate time.

Not familiar with the Airbus FMC but I assume, like Boeing, you can either:

1) Create a waypoint ie runway -10nm

OR

2) Enter the Airfield, or a beacon on the airfield, with a 10nm range circle around it?

Put a 10nm ring on the Rwy Threshold descend to 3000 agl and fly to it.

Or keep your head up and fingers out of the box like the old fart that knew what he was doing suggested?

The controller was just being lazy - he/she couln't be bothered to give you a radar vector. Providing there were no terrain issues. I would be inclined to accord him/her the same courtesy and use a loose TLAR heading based on a suitable intercept.

Pardon I but WTF is a TLAR?

SHIG - See how it goes? Added onto TLAR as a progress check.

TLAR = That Looks About Right

Now it all makes sense! Thanks BPF.

BOAC, KOS - King Of Swing?

Oh ok...that's up there with SIAS - gets back to that rubbish sex with a slag thing again.

How did people fly airplane before the FMS was invented?

Hey Slash, this time around, can you try to stay on the mods good side, we miss you when you get banned :)

Funny I came on here thinking of asking a similar question (although not about the A320). Did the OP come across this at Glasgow by an chance?

Single pilot and with only a Garmin 430 I just asked the controller for a heading rather than fiddle with entering waypoints. Would have been possible to do it quickly with an old VOR/DME RNAV system ironically...could have done it off the Glasgow VOR.

It is an unfortunate, but inevitable, result of aviation in this age of button-pushing and pretty-coloured screens. Those who have grown up using little else are rendered near-incapable when such gadgets are taken away from them, or are prevented from using them.

What seems like common sense (and that is essentially the ethos behind TLAR ...) for pilots experienced in 'hands-on' flying, is an utter mystery to Children of the Magenta String. And it is only going to get worse!

What absolute rubbish, Abbey Road, it's never magenta on an Airbus...

Think I'd ask ATC if there was any magic in 10 miles. It's slightly ambiguous anyway, IMHO, unless there's some protocol I'm not aware of. And it depends where you are when the instruction is given (e.g., you might be on the downwind leg).

Do you:
a) complete the turn on to the localiser at 10 nm;
b) head directly for the 10-mile final, and then start the turn on to the localiser so as not to shoot through it;
c) self-position so as to give yourself a short intercept leg at, say, a 30-degree angle?

"Is there an accurate way, other than inserting a PBD, to intercept at 10 miles?"

Even that's not strictly accurate (and the distraction is unacceptable). Defining the PBD without forcing an OVHD results in (b). Defining it with an OVHD means you shoot through the LLZ.

I'd probably use ROSE NAV and do my own headings, so would use AP. But check NAV ACCURACY first, or you might overfly the presidential palace like I once did in a third-world country. :{

Umm, I think just do as the Captain said, PULL HDG and aim inside the IAF and refine as you get closer. It drives me mad when FO's are fiddling around trying to build circuits or PBD's in the FMGC when it would be easier just to take the autopilot out and eyeball it. :ugh: Sign of the times I guess.

you really didn't give us enough information...so

were you on radar vectors, and had been given a heading to intercetp?

were you in radar contact?

were you in VMC DAYLIGHT?

What kind of final/instrument approach were you intercepting, a localizer, vor , ndb? four course range?

One could determine a 10 mile final by cchecking glide slope indications by adding 3200 feet to touchdown zone elevation (actually closer to 3160 feet)...so, fly at 3200' and when GS is centered, you are about 10 miles (slant range to GS antenna).

So, what exactly is the info as req'd above?

oh, did you have the airport in sight? had you been to the airport before?

Seems like if they don,t want to give you a vector just wing it and for amusement see how close you can be.

I would choose the 20 mile scale method and aim for the middle. If it was an ils 3200 ft works for intercepting final. If ATC really cared they would give you a vector and speed so don't worry about it.

It blows my mind that questions like these are this common, did it cross the O.p.'s mind to request a vector victor??? The answer to the question is so simple that I figured I had to be missing something obvious

1 - Ask your captain
2 - Look it up in the SOPS
3 - Call the company
4 - Ask ATC where you are
5 - Ask a passenger
6 - Don't do anything, wait till ATC tells you what to do.

Thanks all for the responses and feedback, I do appreciate.
Sorry i did not give alot of details.
I was flying flight plan route which would take me to the VOR.
ATC cut me off on a very long base leg basically and told me to go direct to a 10 mile final to intercept the LOC.
We did ask if we could go direct to the initial FIX of the loc approach, to which ATC responded "negative".
Night time, localizer approach, radar contact.

Again, thanks.

You did everything right. If they don't give you a vector and speed just wing it and see how it works out. They don't seem to care. Life is too short to come up with magical approaches from anywhere just because approach is too lazy to give you a vector. Just do it if you want to test your side skills because it isn't required in an airliner.

Look at the new guys being hired. Do you think they could do anything without automation? I applaud the 1500 HR USA rule. We might have a pilot shortage but we will have real pilots. Others will have 250 hr wonders. Then they won't be allowed to handfly because of their lack of experience so if the button pushing doesn't work right they are finished. AF447 is an example of that. They had thousands of hours pushing buttons but couldn't hand fly an airplane. The old timer taking his break was the only one that could have fixed what they did. That is what happens when you become automation dependent.

Please give us real pilots back like we did when I was flying.

YGBSM!

You have an FMS and ND, a 14.5 NM fix AND the airport on the ND, and you can't figure out how to quickly navigate to a point about 2/3 of the way out from the airport to the fix?!? How "accurate" do you have to be at that point?!?

I think you need a basic instrument navigation refresher!

Also your captain was right, just use your best judgement and head more in the airport direction and don't worry too much about the 10 miles. I wouldn't. I don't think ATC cared either. You had plenty of distance behind preceding traffic so they were just cutting you short behind them. Maybe it was a noise abatement thing on the 10 mile final. You would have been fine just cutting your approach short to make ATC happy.

By the way don't listen to intruder. I have more experience than him and am not arrogant. He should not be saying what he does.

If I were to hazard a guess I would suggest that if you had gone to the IAF the extra track miles would have messed up the controller's sequence for following traffic but I doubt he was after 10 mile final with laser precision. We live in a world where extreme precision is often possible but not required. TLAR sounds about right.

Post 1 says 14.5 miles, doesn't it?

Aaaah, BOAC..... from PFK to KOS in forty short years...

Meatlover, trust me. Just use the ND and graphically take the green line with HDG to approx 10 miles from the runway.

Also ask PNF to sequence the waypoints so that waypoint TO will make sense, and that's it, you will have lateral and vertical navigation to quickly assess if you are too high now, before making your mental maths regarding that.

I normally precalculate a 10 mile final-fix for my destination (since ATC is more than likely to position you at 10 miles when giving radar vectors).
I do this via a spreadsheet on the iPad developed specifically for this PBD calculation, and then insert the waypoints in the FMS during preflight. I can always delete later or simply use as reference.
The other waypoints are base leg position on a 45 degree intercept. Then next to the waypoints are the heights for a 3 degree descent.
Interesting post.
http://s13.postimage.org/62x82u1dv/image.jpg

The way we always did, using brains and logic, and well taught situational awareness.

TLAR + SA

Direct 10 miles final is standard procedure in certain parts of Africa - with all navaids at the airport being U/S :)

What worries me is people asking how to intercept 10 miles final on an aircraft built around FMS (e.g. Airbus) :ugh: