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-   -   mach number and weight (https://www.pprune.org/tech-log/463695-mach-number-weight.html)

Shabez 14th September 2011 20:10

mach number and weight
 
At an aircraft weight of 70,000lb your aerodynamic ceiling in 1g level flight will be:
A) FL440
B) FL390
C) FL320
D) FL420

ans is fl 420 ....why and how...i dont get it

flite idol 14th September 2011 20:21

Was there a chart or graph?

wiggy 14th September 2011 20:35

Sorry, I'm with flite, at the moment there's insufficient information, there must have been something else.

What's the source of your question?

hetfield 14th September 2011 20:37

At an aircraft weight of 70,000lb Captains age will be:
A) 44 years
B) 39 years
C) 32 years
D) 42 years


;)

Shabez 14th September 2011 21:11

well the source is a JAA question bank
 
ITs a part of the JAA curriculum

..its even on ths website

Principles of Flight Theory Test Question Bank - 081-02-02 Normal shockwaves - Question 986

wiggy 14th September 2011 21:24

The link takes me to an isolated example question with no context. It looks to me as if it's possible it's one of a sequence of several about the same aircraft and without the other information that has been provided earlier in the "paper" it's impossible to answer.


Anyhow at a second glance it looks like flite was right ;) take a closer look at the fine print at the bottom of the linked page:


If this question refers to a chart or figure (as some do), please accept our apologies - figures are not available online
I think you need to download the full package to get all the information needed.

keith williams 14th September 2011 22:19

The real question includes a Manoeuvre Capability (Buffet Boundary) Diagram.

The diagram provided in the question includes a worked example which makes it all self-explanatory.

Get the diagram and you will be able to answer the question.

CaptNK_AIRBUS 14th May 2012 05:45

help me!
 
Why does Indicated Mach No. reduce if weight reduces, even if Flight Level is the same. I tried hard to find out the reason. No good.
N

Intruder 14th May 2012 06:14

Simple version is that for max range you fly a constant angle of attack in cruise. As weight goes down, airspeed/Mach goes down to provide less lift at that angle of attack.

hawk37 14th May 2012 17:58

Intruder, you say "for max range you fly a constant angle of attack in cruise".

Could you re think that one? Did you perhaps mean max endurance? (And even then, I'm not sure that is true given compressibility). From what I remember, the angle of attack for max range decreases as weight decreases.

Of course....I could be wrong

Capn Bloggs 15th May 2012 00:55


Intruder, you say "for max range you fly a constant angle of attack in cruise".

Could you re think that one? Did you perhaps mean max endurance? (And even then, I'm not sure that is true given compressibility). From what I remember, the angle of attack for max range decreases as weight decreases.
Lonewolf is correct; best L/D (max range) occurs only at one AoA. As the weight reduces, so the speed for that AoA reduces (as of course does the Endurance speed), but the actual AoA for max range remains the same.

Have a look at page 178 of "The Mechanics of Flight", by A C Kermode.

HazelNuts39 15th May 2012 09:32

Due to compressibility effects, max L/D and corresponding AoA change with Mach as shown below for a large jet transport:
http://i.imgur.com/voyi5.gif?1

Capn Bloggs 15th May 2012 10:33

HN39, interesting, but the question is how the speed/AoA varies with change in weight.

I think the "max L/D" term on your chart should be "L/D". There is only one point of "max L/D", which looks to be about 0.5 Mach, at 5.5° AoA. Not knowing what the altitude is for that chart, I would have thought that that AoA is far too high to be best range speed ie best L/D.

hawk37 15th May 2012 11:01

Hazelnuts, I too would be very interested in further info on this graph. What altitude would that be for? I can't think it is in the 30's, as a speed of circa mach .5 for max L/D seems a bit slow for a typically airliner at that altitude.
I note the Y axis, L/D is proportional to 1/D since L is constant for level cruise. this graph then is the inverse of the thrust required curve we typically see.
However, it includes the compressibility effects, is this why it is such a different shape?

Hawk

hawk37 15th May 2012 11:13

Capn Bloggs says "best L/D (max range) occurs only at one AoA."

We should be careful here, and distinguish between jets and non jets. I don't believe best L/D is max range for a jet. Similarly, for a jet, max range is not at a constant aoa, as weight changes. The thread makes no specific distinction between jets and non jets until Hazelnuts refers to "large jet transport"

HazelNuts39 15th May 2012 11:22


Originally Posted by Capn Bloggs
I think the "max L/D" term on your chart should be "L/D".

Depending on weight and altitude, there is a point of maximum L/D for each Mach number. The point at M=0.5 and AoA=4.5 corresponds to a certain weight/delta(*), where delta is the ambient pressure ratio. Consequently the altitude varies with weight, such that ambient pressure varies proportionally to weight.

(*)For this airplane: mass/delta=392 tonnes

Natstrackalpha 15th May 2012 11:24

Why does what? WAT !
 

Why does Indicated Mach No. reduce if weight reduces, even if Flight Level is the same. I tried hard to find out the reason. No good.
N
If you are just flying along, as time goes on the weight of the aircraft gets less due to fuel burn. If left to it`s own devices the aircraft either increases altitude or gets faster and faster. If let to go faster and faster (apart from mach crit - another thread) then the angle of attack gets lower and lower (or you climb). Kinda good in a way but at the same time you have to trim off the tendency for lift - more lift in there somewhere = more induce drag albeit trimmed off. Best to have the aircraft at optimum ATT for the FL and the Weight and at that temp which, also affects . . .Machno.

Have I done that right? Is that the answer to your question? the objective being to go as fast as possible . . .as high as possible . . using as little fuel as possible . . .

Power plus Attitude = ?

Capn Bloggs 15th May 2012 12:36


Originally Posted by hawk37
Similarly, for a jet, max range is not at a constant aoa, as weight changes.

We (Intruder and I) are not saying it does. What we're saying is that the IAS for max range changes (reduces) as the weight reduces to maintain the best L/D.


Originally Posted by Natstrackalpha
If you are just flying along, as time goes on the weight of the aircraft gets less due to fuel burn. If left to it`s own devices the aircraft either increases altitude or gets faster and faster.

Only if you don't control the speed to maintain the best L/D ratio/AoA. For example, at a constant Cost Index (say max range CI), the speed will reduce as weight reduces. Have a look at page 100 of the Airbus CI description.


Originally Posted by Hazelnuts39
The point at M=0.5 and AoA=4.5 corresponds to a certain weight/delta, where delta is the ambient pressure ratio. Consequently the altitude varies with weight, such that ambient pressure varies proportionally to weight. (For this airplane: mass/delta=392 tonnes).

Sorry, but I do not understand. If that chart is for a 392t aeroplane, I cannot believe that L/D stays constant at near stall speed (Mach 0.2) all the way through to just under MMO (Mach 0.8). The lift will obviously be constant (same altitude and weight) but the drag will vary enormously. The L/D curve cannot be almost flat.

HazelNuts39 15th May 2012 13:00


Originally Posted by Capn Bloggs
If that chart is for a 392t aeroplane

You should read more carefully. I wrote:

The point at M=0.5 and AoA=4.5 corresponds to (...) mass/delta=392 tonnes

hawk37 15th May 2012 13:08

Capn Bloggs; "the IAS for max range changes (reduces) as the weight reduces to maintain the best L/D"

It is dangerous to use the terms "max range" and "best L/D" in the same sentence. A jet at an IAS for max range is not at the speed for best L/D.

Generally, for a jet, flight at best L/D gives max endurance (usually close to published holding speeds) and is at or near a constant aoa.

If we want best range however, we need to fly at the speed where the ratio of TAS/FuelFlow is the greatest. This is faster than the speed for best L/D, and is not at a constant aoa.

Best L/D speed is the lowest point in the Thrust Required vs TAS graph.

Best range speed can be determined by drawing a line from the origin to the point where it tangents the Thrust Required vs TAS graph. Some assumptions of course, eg constant TSFC Thrust specific fuel consumption (lbs of thrust, per pound of fuel, per hour)


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