Hi,

Is not really a diversion as the researches are not only a technical challenge but are also sometime (in adverse situation)a financial challenge.

You're absolutely right ... these are recommendations, not laws
But the French laws are not recommendations
We have here an accident at work (personnel aboard the aircraft is linked to Air France by an employment contract governed by French law)
The French state in case of accident .. has the right to request any documents or physical evidence to conduct an investigation to determine whether the laws concerning the activity of the company .. the tools used by the employees .. hygiene ... rest time .. and more .. have been met.
So the company has to provide (to the extent possible and in good faith) the documents .. etc .. required for the survey
Current research and results show that it was "in the extent of opportunities"
And until proven otherwise Air France has money ..
Air France is not yet declared a bankrupt company ... which would then be considered as an act of God .. and could then induce the French state to intervene financially if necessary.

End of "disgression" :)

Sub finds container of Air France recorder, but no data | Boeing and Aerospace News - seattlepi.com

Photos at link -

Sub finds container of Air France recorder, but no data

Searchers have found the container for the flight data recorder of Air France flight 447 but not the memory unit that contains the data, French investigators reported Wednesday.

Earlier this month, searchers found major wreckage from the Airbus A330, which crashed on its way between Rio de Janeiro and Paris on June 1, 2009, killing all 228 people aboard.

The first, 12-hour dive by the Remora 6000 remote submarine found the chassis of Flight Data Recorder, France’s air accident investigation agency, the Bureau d’Enquêtes et d’Analyses, said Wednesday. “The searches are continuing. A second dive by the Remora 6000 began this morning.”

Searchers have not yet found any part of the cockpit voice recorder.

How come that in various news media I sense a rhetoric about the chances of finding the boxes intact being low - with different socalled official statements to build up a public belief that no real facts will ever be available because the boxes were never found or if found they would be so badly damaged that it was not possible to extract any valid data? (data which could indirectly put the political, legal and financial interests of airbus and air france in jeopardy?)

Without playing to any conspiracy theory, from the picture of the box it seems split wide open. Considering all the theories till date and the condition of the wreckage found in initial dates it seems to point that the aircraft landed intact and on its belly with little forward speed. What would cause the box to split open in such a manner??? Does that mean all theories to date could be incorrect?

theories are just that - and guesswork is the same - just that..
my feeling is that this is just what the involved parties want officially - again - just my own guesswork..
only the people actually having the data in their possession will know the real facts and then it is up to them what they want to disclose to the public - to suit their agenda..
I sincerely want to believe we will get the real facts - in public - but apparently it has happened through the history of accidents that not all facts were disclosed..

(Without posting yet another image of the chassis of which we have several identical!) where do you see "from the picture of the box it seems split wide open"?

It is a well known phenomenon that when confronted with unfamiliar stimuli humans tend to interpret from experience. i.e. we see what we expect to see.

If you want to see a conspiracy you create one (in your own mind.)

Surely no-one is suggesting that Air France & Airbus might be in cahoots to somehow delete incriminating evidence from recorders ?

<cough>Habsheim<cough>:oh:

I can't see from the photo that the data module is missing. Which end is it at, the end buried under the sand?

Before the Airbus conspiracies start getting out of hand :=

Part of CVR recovered from Ethiopian 737 crash site

Am I missing something here? The supposed FDR on the sea bed appears to be a different type to the new unit shown in the newspaper article. This isn't immediately obvious as the newspaper picture cuts off the end of the new unit. A complete unit is shown below. Compare the overall length of the 'boxes' of both units. Perhaps someone more current with Air Transport Racking sizes can expand on this. Curious.

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b270/cumpas/fdr.jpg

interesting photo - is the sand at the front left-hand part going all the way up to the edge of the top-plate (covering the left-hand part of the box under it) - or are we looking at an open space under the left hand part of that top-plate..?

..explain what your point is, regarding conspiracies - with that article - jazz hands..?

ANENGINEER said:
The thing is, if that is what you expect in these circumstances, then that is what you will see. Which of course is almost the same as prejudging. This mechanism has served humans very well in the course of evolution, but is not an appropriate method of accident investigation.

Press release from the UK AAIB states that the UK representative will take part in the analysis of voice and data recorders. I presume other representatives from other authorities will be present, so just not a case of Airbus or French-only investigators being present?

Air Accidents Investigation: Press Release - Air France 447 - Wreckage recovery operations

It's already understood that conspiracy theorists will not be silenced by facts, because myth and paranoia is food for the intellectually challenged.

Too many people involved in this lengthy search, recovery, analysis of wreckage would make it very difficult to keep everyone "on the same page" in any attempt of suppressing findings and facts as to the probable cause of the crash. :ooh:

@Glueball

Couldn't agree more. Like the people demanding to see Obama's birth certificate. He shows them and of course "it's a fake"...

Beauty about conspiracy theories is that you can't prove nor disprove them!

It seems that F-GZCP should have been equipped with two dual purpose recorders, one forward and one aft. Was this recommendation ever made law?

The accident aircraft was an Airbus A330-203, with manufacturer serial number 660, registered as "F-GZCP". This airliner first flew on 25 February 2005.

The U.S. NTSB and TSB of Canada issued safety recommendations on March 9, 1999, to require:

By January 1, 2003, all newly manufactured airplanes required to carry both a CVR and FDR be fitted with two combined voice and data recorders, one recorder located as close to the cockpit as practical and the other as far aft as practical.

i must say ` well done` to the french navy , especially the submarine crew - trying to find a needle in a haystack , using equipment `out of spec` , not properly knowing the water conditions beneath them - and thales trying to push the sonar even further shows a dedication to the misison - to get `something` shows for pretty good equipment.

and likely that know how will be used for further finetuning`

Not sure if your post is ironic or if I've missed something (probably) but for the record..... the successful search was done by Woods Hole Oceanographic Institute using Remus 6000 autonomous underwater vehicles.

This stage of recovery is on a French commercial ship and using Remora ROV(s) provided by (and I guess operated by) Phoenix International

The Sonar and black and white photos are from the Remus. The FDR chassis pictures in colour would be from the Remora.

And absolute blind faith in the establishment isn't a sign of staggering naivety ?

Yes, of course there are conspiracy nutters out there who will not believe any amount of evidence. Likewise, there are naive nutters who gullibly accept, without question, what the establishment tells them. In my opinion there is a significantly greater proportion of the latter.

My point was that people are all too happy to label anyone who questions the official line as conspiracy 'nutters', but the bottom line is that the debacle surrounding the FDR from the Habsheim crash (and the subsequent shameful scapegoating of Cpt Asseline) shows to all that where big bucks are at stake, anything is possible.

Of course, it is already understood that no degree of evidence will silence the naivity nutters.

You'll have to do better than coughing "Habsheim" if you'd like your questions to be taken seriously. All I get from this thread are musings about supposed "hints" in official press releases and speculation about an "open" box, which is ridiculous because 1) it's not split open and 2) this "box" doesn't contain the memory module.

Originally Posted by anengineer...

"(and the subsequent shameful scapegoating of Cpt Asseline)"

Regardless of any conspiracy if any and whether it was in the A320 accident in Habsheim or this newer accident involving the A330 lying at the bottom of the Atlantic, Cpt Asseline deserves to be hung in public and his licence removed permanently because any pilot that decides to take a fully loaded airliner down to 30 feet above ground in a slow speed/high alpha pass regardless of aircraft technology as a few screws missing.

Used to be the "done thing" in the "good old days", but with pax on board ? ? think that was the hanging offence IMHO.

New findings APU
 

Habsheim
 

Arseline, aka "Rambo" in AFR, demonstrated an exceptional lack of professionalism taking handicapped pax to their death in those trees.
He will have to live with that for the rest of his days. Hanging is too kind.

Cpt Asseline has always said it was 30M indicated (or he believed it to be). He has never said that he deliberately took the aircraft down to 30 feet. Either you have more information on this aspect than the French courts or you are assuming he's just a liar. Are you suggesting that the entire accident can be laid squarely, and completely, at Asseline's feet ?

anengineer, from another engineer....
I would think there is probably a thread on PPRuNe still, about Arseline's imbecility. I don't think it's relevant to the AF447 crash yet, since we simply don't know the "Probable Cause" of the AF447 crash.

I would suggest we leave Habsheim out of this discussion, or start a separate new thread on the subject.

CJ

Captain Asseline also reported that the engines didn't respond to his throttle input as he attempted to increase power. In the month prior to the accident, Airbus had posted two Operational Engineering Bulletins (OEBs) indicating anomalous behavior in the A320 aircraft. These bulletins were received by Air France, but were not sent out to pilots until after the accident.

OEB 19/1: Engine Acceleration Deficiency at Low Altitude
This OEB noted that the engines may not respond to throttle input at low altitude.
OEB 06/2: Baro-Setting Cross Check
This OEB stated that the barometric altitude indication on the A320 did not always function properly.
These malfunctions could have caused both the lack of power when the throttle was increased, and the inability of the crew to recognize the sharp sink rate as the plane passed 100 feet into the trees.

Flight recorders: In May of 1998, the Lausanne Institute of Police Forensic Evidence and Criminology (IPSC) determined that the recorders presented to the Court were not the ones taken from the aircraft after the accident.[3]

^^^^^ The salient fact is, HE HAD EXPERIENCED THE LACK OF RESPONSE.

Had he been a Ppruner, I'm damned sure he would have alerted fellow aviators of his "brown trouser moment" Irrespective of any documentation going through official channels.

I'm also damned sure he'd have discussed it with other AF drivers.

The man's personal ethics is another ball of wax altogether and as Christiaanj said, start a new thread if you feel the need, :uhoh:


The fact that the discovery of some wreckage is in the public domain, indicates that it's likely interested parties consider a cover-up to be pretty futile.

http://www.bea.aero/fr/enquetes/vol....r2.reduite.jpg

http://www.bea.aero/fr/enquetes/vol....r2.reduite.jpg

Let's hope it's as intact inside as it appears on the outside.

GB

Wow ! They must be over the moon after searching for so long. Congratulations to all involved. It certainly looks in decent nick. Fingers crossed.

Not so fast
 

My understanding is that this is just the casing, and the memory module is still missing.

No, that is the memory module. The case was found earlier in the week.

FDR Located
 

The press release confirms that it is the memory unit.

Information, 1 May 2011

Good news!

Underside image:
http://www.bea.aero/fr/enquetes/vol....r1.reduite.jpg

More info here: Information, 1 May 2011

(sorry - duplicating Greybeard's link there !)

And the conspiracy theorists suddenly go silent. But for how long? :hmm:

Until the investigation finding is issued. Then there will be calls of foul play and cover up!

Oh do shut up ! How can the 'conspiracy theorists suddenly go silent' ?? Greybeard only posted the news less than 40 minutes ago FFS ! :rolleyes:

Hats off to the search party.
It pays to be persevere. I hope they will find Flash-memory still intact and that we will learn something from this sad accident.