French Judge Files Charges Against Airbus over Rio Crash
 

BBC News - Airbus faces manslaughter charges over Rio crash

Well, it's about time they started blaming someone. <sarcasm>

That's new Ferraris and Porsches all round then for the legal teams. Trying to make liability stick with an unknown cause will produce hours of invoices.

An argument over French v English Law is the last thing I want to see here. This 'charge', I think should be looked at with an eye toward discovery, rather than "Culpability".

The ultimate responsibility lies with the carrier, and the manufacturer.

My opinion from the outset is that BEA has invited this sorry situation with its arrogant, flimsy, and parochial attitudes, expressed in its public disclosures, and an unwillingness to simply pursue the truth of the matter.

A long discussion of arcane and unpopular minutiae has come and gone. The Families know the depth of studied nonchalance exhibited by the principals, and their thinly disguised agendas.

The Pilots acted, the Families have acted, Now the Law. Inevitable.

Alucia. Bon chance.

The BBC story also states that the Alucia search is being funded by Airbus and Air France. Has the BEA given up?

[EDIT] It would appear not:

The New Undersea Search Campaign

Exhibit A is at the bottom of the ocean. Court adjourned. :hmm:

I hope too that such bickering can be avoided.
It also allows the parties involved a more complete and legal access to the various "dossiers".
'Bearfoil', I suppose you did use 'discovery' in its legal sense?

One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest
 

Nurse! Someone let the judge watch the AF show on the BBC, Nurse! NURSE!:(

Discovery in the legal manner, yes. This has some interesting implications, relative to the investigation. At this stage, I think responsibilty is assumed, that is, the carrier and the Manufacturer.

The focus is now on the recorders, evidence in the legal sense, and not just pro per, iow to be utilized and "reported" by involved parties. There is a new party, the French Judiciary. Ownership is not to the BEA, but to the court, I would think. I cannot imagine the Court allowing even the "appearance" of impropriety, thus the boxes must not be touched by the accused. It will be interesting to follow the role of the BEA. Friend of the Court, I would assume, now. The expense of the recovery should of course be assumed by the accused, but they should be billed at a later date, after a complete accounting has been accomplished, to remove any hint of "follow the money".

Will the Court be satisfied in allowing BEA to take possession? (Should they be found). Or will an officer of the Court establish first and primary chain of custody? Crash investigations have always seemed incestuous to me, the ultimate goal somewhat clouded by the "buddy system".

In a case where no good whatever can come from the discovery of the Truth of the matter for the players, they should be prevented from involvement in any search for evidence, excepting advice and data they possess.

Christiaan, I defer completely to your assessment of the legalities. There has been a total turn in events.

The BEA is the body charged with the investigation of French aviation accidents, and as such I assume that their diligence in pursuing that objective will not be hindered by the judicial system.

However, as the applied jurisprudence in most democracies is assumed to be unfettered by vested interests, including arms of the state, some judicial oversight is to be expected in all that happens from this point and onwards.

Hi,

Anyway ..if the black boxes are recovered ... they must receive (when output from sea) a judicial seal affixed by a responsible person from the french Ministry of Justice.
And when return in France for analyse (or other place) this seal must be broken under the supervision of responsible person from the french Ministry of Justice
This for prevent any (possible) manipulations

It makes sense. I pray the families are at some stage relieved of this unknown.

Also Air France
 

How sad. If the allegation of the 'sensors' giving false data were true (and can be proven in court, which I doubt) it is most unlikely that any competent First Officer, let alone Captain, could not fly 'Power + Attitude for Performance,' and retrieve the situation.

This trial will not yield any conclusive result; how could it when most of the evidence will be conjecture? So, another major score for Sue, Grabbit and Runne, and, of course, for the 'expert witnesses' from both sides, most of whom will contradict each other.

Quelle farce!

Alucia
 

Alucia's arriving Recife now. On schedule.
In fact she's gone past Recife and appears to be heading for Suape, just south.

Thanks, broadreach.

Quote from the BEA, for anyone who hasn't seen it yet:
"The search vessel Alucia will leave its home port in Seattle at the beginning of February to sail towards the port of Suape (Brazil) via the Panama canal. There it will load the Geomar REMUS and the participants in the expedition around 15 March so as to be in the search area approximately five days later."

The New Undersea Search Campaign

Wold you say the schedule has slipped by about 6 days?

Thanks Broadreach.

Now, I wonder why I posted -
on 10 Feb?

From the BEA site:Didin't some of the certification standards date back to 1947 ?

Is there any news about what's going on with this particular issue at the moment?

AF447 was not the only flight affected by this issue.

The answer is simple.....
You kept US briefed.
Clearly not the remit of the BEA.....

Continue to keep US briefed, please.

Yes of course, broadreach remembers now, Suape it was, Chris and MM43 are absolutely correct. Fading memory cells this end. But she DID give Recife as her destination on leaving Panama.... :O
And AIS, having realized it's Friday evening, has decided to go AWOL and give the techies something to do over the weekend. :O:O

"Alucia" - update - BEA press release
 

PHASE 4 - Sea search operations

This is to inform you that a media advisory will take place on the harbor of Suape on Monday, March 21st, 2011 at 11:30 AM sharp after the arrival of the Vessel Alucia into Suape next weekend.
During the media advisory you will have the opportunity to visit the Alucia, make video recordings of the Remus as well as conduct interviews with Dave Gallo, Director of special projects and Mike Purcell, Expedition Leader, from the Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution.
Jean-Paul Troadec, Director of the BEA , the safety authority in charge of the investigation into the accident of Airbus A330 – AF Flight 447 will be meeting with the search team in Suape.

The full press release can be found at:- AF447 - Information, 14 March 2011

Oh bother, I missed that one the other day. But they didn't give much notice, did they? Three days' notice to register. Pity it's too late now; otherwise we could have asked broadreach to take time off for a long day's jolly up to Recife. ;)

News stories from today's press conference are starting to appear. This one contributes no new information, but has some nice pictures, including some in the side bar to the right.

Airbus e Air France retomam operação para localizar as caixas-pretas | Últimas notícias | Diario de Pernambuco - O mais antigo jornal em circulação na América Latina

The Portuguese/English translation provided by Google:

Google Translate

says:

which is not correct, considering that the wreck was located in 1985; perhaps this is a translation error. However, the REMUS 6000s did visit the Titanic last summer to participate in a survey of the wreck and debris field.

EDIT:

This German article has better technical information and gives the viewpoint from IMF-GOMAR, who are providing one of the REMUS-6000s. I think all of this information is known in this group.

Neue Suche nach vermisstem Air France Airbus

Google Translate

Thanks for the suggestion, Chris. Fortunately, I missed the BEA release as well or I might have been tempted.

The advantage of Suape over Recife is that it's well removed and a pain to get into, ergo less journalists and other interested parties. Even so, given the size of the Alucia one suspects there would have been little room to swing a cat this morning.

And, as from now on, little fresh news - sans spin - regarding the search is likely to appear unless it arrives indirectly via MM43's or others' contacts.

Information + interpretation = misinformaton

There's nothing more to say!

Update - BEA press release
 

Information, 23 March 2011

The "Alucia" departed Suape (Brazil) on 22 March, 2011 at 2320z.

Link to press release and BEA video made in Suape.

The following is the English translation of the video commentary.

Everyone hopes that part or all of Charlie Papa's remains will be found this weekend or soon after, but we have to continue to be realistic. The BEA is interestingly vague about the deadline of Phase 4.

"The search could last up to 100 days..."
"... this operation... will last 16 weeks [112 days]..."
"The operation... is designed to cover the search area in 4 months [~122 days]."

Fingers crossed it doesn't come to that.

Hope they find it this time. I'm really curious how complete the plane might be or what exactly happened as is everyone else.

Wish them all the luck.

The "Alucia" has arrived in the proposed search area, and my interpretation of press releases is that the search will commence in the north sector of the 20NM radius circle and progress southwards. A reposting of a previous BEA graphic with additional enhancements will provide a general indication of the area the "Alucia" will now be working in.

http://i54.tinypic.com/2cr7fcn.jpg

EDIT :: For clarification, the yellow circles are drawn at multiples of 10NM radii from the Last Known Position. The initial Phase 4 search is concentrating within 20NM radius of the LKP, and the remaining area out to 40NM will eventually be searched if required.

I don't know how you professionals will view this article, but I think it explains well in laymans' terms some theories that have done the rounds.

Aviation accidents: The Difference Engine: Wild blue coffin corner | The Economist

WHOI Press Release
 

Last week WHOI issued a press release that provides some additional technical detail that has not appeared accurately before.

News Release : WHOI Conducts Latest Search for Air France Flight 447 : Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution

It says that BEA plans to issue weekly updates.

Capetonian

One of the better newspaper articles on the subject. Readable and without any wild assumptions about what did or didn't happen.

The readers comments show the full range of opinion, misconstrued or otherwise.

I was also impressed. In general terms, the description of flight at subsonic-jet cruising altitudes is remarkably well-informed by journalistic standards, including the part about coffin corner. Well above average.

17000m is normally on the high side for the tropopause, even in the tropics (was it that high for AF447?). The quoted 25-knot envelope at 10600m (FL350) seems about right, provided you are considering IAS rather than TAS. That doesn't represent most pilots' idea of being close to coffin corner.

Facts
 

At the time of the accident, AF447's "coffin corner" was at FL460. Shortly before that, the airplane was in cruise at FL350, M.82 (280 kCAS). The available range of safe speeds at that altitude was from M.58 (192 kCAS) to M.86 (295 kCAS). It would take 2.5 minutes to decelerate from M.82 to M.58, the low-speed boundary for the onset of perceptible buffet, in level flight at zero thrust, and somewhat longer at idle.

Regards,
HN39

Possibly a handwritten 1 has been transcribed as 7.

...m.......ft......°C
10999 36089 -56.3 ISA at tropopause
10668 35000 -54.1 ISA (AF447 - forecast -46°C)
09448 31000 -46.2 "

Thanks for the AF447 specifics, HN39,

I am reminded that the 25 kts envelope I was thinking of has MMO at the top end and VLS at the bottom. At this late hour (and the wretched clocks about to go forward from real time to big-brother summer time here) I'm not going to try and look up the definition of VLS in the cruise; but it is way above the 1g buffet, of course. Of the order of 1.3g?


Thanks for the AF447 trop figure, mm43,

It's remarkably low for the tropics, considering that the standard atmosphere uses 11000m (36090ft) -56.5C, (and tends to represent temperate latitudes) - almost exactly the same. There could have been a very big step-up at the frontal ("ITF") edge, I suppose?

Chris;

VLS in the cruise is probably(*) defined as 1.3 g to buffet onset, which is M 0.675 (226 kCAS) for AF447.

According to Tim Vasquez' analysis, the tropopause level was 15295 m. What is the importance?

Regards,
HN39

PS:: (*)Buffet onset varies with C.G., while the stall speed (Vs1g, V-alphamax) per regulatory definition is at forward C.G. (17%). I don't know what convention Airbus uses for VLS in the cruise with respect to C.G. My values are for C.G.=37%.

Sorry, HN39,

I'm unable to say whether the displayed VLS allows for cg position, or how much difference it makes. The FMGC certainly calculates where the current CG is, expressed in terms of %MAC (mean aerodynamic chord), but relies on correct crew entry of the ZFW CG. I don't know if there is any independent in-flight verification of current CG.

[In the case of current AUW (gross weight/mass), the FAC (not sure if it's called that on the A330) calculates current AUW independently of the FMGC (so if the crew enters the wrong ZFW before departure, the assumed AUW is not grossly affected).]

By the way, for anyone puzzled, 1.3g is equivalent to a balanced turn with 39 degrees bank. Flying at the 1g-buffet speed is for test flights only. As HN39 indicates, the true "coffin corner" is where the 1g-buffet speed equals MMO [see Editorial Correction below]. Fortunately, very few aircraft (and certainly no airliners) have enough high-altitude thrust to get up there. Flying "on the 1.3g buffet" is fine if you are in reasonably smooth air, and not planning on using more than about 15 degrees of bank.


Quote:
According to Tim Vasquez' analysis, the tropopause level was 15295 m. What is the importance?

I think it is important, and that is very different from the figure (10999m) quoted by mm43.

Flight in the vicinity of a clearly-defined tropopause ("trop.") ** is an unsettled affair. (For the uninitiated, met books traditionally described climb above the trop. as being isothermal; in practice there is a distinct rise in temperature initially as you climb through it.) In level flight, every time you encounter the mixing layer, the SAT (and therefore TAT) go all over the place, affecting IAS and IMN (indicated Mach), the engine thrust changes spontaneously, and the W/V changes. If they had been cruising in and out of the trop., they would have been in that regime. Also, they might have been in and out of the tops of Cbs. (Again for the uninitiated, the trop. acts like a saucepan lid, because of the inversion of temperature associated with it.) That itself is uncomfortable, but unlikely to be accompanied by icing/precipitation.

On the other hand, if the trop. was over 4000m above them (typical in those latitudes), the regime would have been very different. Better in terms of stability away from Cbs; but in the midst of the cells if they entered Cbs. That means severe turbulence, probable precipitation with icing, and high risk of lightning strikes.


** "Trop." is flight-crew slang for "tropopause", and is not to be misinterpreted as meaning troposphere, which is the volume of air between the tropopause and the earth.

[Editorial Correction]
Following HN39's post #2842, the sentence highlighted in red is amended as follows:
"The true 'coffin corner' is the altitude at which, flying at 1g, the onset of the low-speed buffet occurs at the same speed as the onset of the high-speed buffet. In this case, the high-speed buffet occurs at a speed below MMO."

Who pays for this extra search, come to that, who's paid up to now?

The present search (Phase 4) is funded by Air France and Airbus, probably equally.

The Phase 3 search (Spring of 2010) was also funded by AF and AB.

I'm not sure who paid for the Phase 2 sonar search by the Pourquoi Pas? in August of 2009.

The Phase 1 search, immediately after the accident was likely paid for by several governments, mainly France and Brazil.

If the site of the wreck is found, then there will be a Phase 5 recovery that will be paid for by France through BEA:

The New Undersea Search Campaign

I'm sure others will correct or clarify any of this.