PPRuNe Forums

PPRuNe Forums (https://www.pprune.org/)
-   Tech Log (https://www.pprune.org/tech-log-15/)
-   -   AF 447 Search to resume (https://www.pprune.org/tech-log/395105-af-447-search-resume.html)

mm43 27th February 2011 19:39


Originally posted by auv-ee;
It's just that details get lost, diminished or exaggerated . . .
Not fully understanding the complexities of the subject, probably plays a major part, and I doubt that there are many (or any) journalists qualified and experienced to handle the subject competently and in-depth.

Machinbird 28th February 2011 14:32

MV Alucia has arrived in the Pacific anchorage of the Panama Canal this morning, 2/28/2011.
Live Ships Map - AIS - Vessel Traffic and Positions
Select vessel name for track information.

Chris Scott 28th February 2011 17:23

Quote from JD-EE:
...I still have a LONG time fascination with the concept of flying and the men who can do it safely and well.

Only the fairer sex could get away with that one, Joanne. ;)

bearfoil 28th February 2011 17:33

Gender

With respect, and not wishing to play the pedantic p---k, I will say without equivocation the absolute winner in the Bearfoil best Captain Sweepstakes is a.........Lady.

She is Tall, Blonde, and attractive. She is consummately professional, and tolerates no nonsense within a fuselage length of her chair. Those who have flown with her know whereof I speak. In pursuit of some long forgotten certificate, it was my pleasure to be one of her students. She was younger, lower time, and a girl. How could she have the best chops in the front?? She did, and she does.

That'll teach me.

bear

JD-EE 1st March 2011 15:15

Indeed, there a lot of good woman pilots. I've had a few on flights I have taken and they managed to put the plane down quite neatly. And they were a little more dignified with their takeoff gyrations required by local rules than the men at the same airport.

But, gee, give a lady (well, woman) a break. I don't find them nearly as interesting as the men. (I hear women, with a diaper, can pull more Gs than male fighter pilots. They're still "ho-hum" to me.)

{^_-}

bearfoil 1st March 2011 17:12

I am most pleased the discussion has turned to pilots and pilotage.

Absent an offense by Aliens, 447 was lost due to fully understandable events. I venture to say the answers have been broached here, and most likely with great repetition. Dollars to dimes it involved more than a mere hiccup. Human error. Mechanical?? Who built what?? Marc DuBois. Captain DuBois. He and two brothers bear the brunt of suspicion, for that is the way. I doubt he would have it any other way. The only thing certain before the Alucia begins, is that there lurks in aviation a virtual certainty that there will be Death. It is a Human endeavour, Flight.

electric-chris 2nd March 2011 00:01

Another site for monitoring Alucia
 
I found this website to be a little more helpful for tracking the Alucia because it shows the last known position even if it is several days old. You do have to register (free) to see some of the data though.

Vessel details ALUCIA (other type of ship) MMSI: 356352000 IMO: 7347823 vessel info and position - Digital-Seas.com

It appears to have made it through the canal.

mm43 2nd March 2011 06:48


It appears to have made it through the canal.
I'm afraid not. 2011-03-02 07:33z 8.91774N 79.5127W and at anchor in the Pacific Anchorage. Would seem that the vessel hasn't a confirmed booking and will pass through at the Canal Authority's convenience.

EDIT :: There are currently scheduling delays for the canal transit due to a 7 year US$5.25 billion canal expansion program which includes additional locks, widening and deepening.

Bobman84 3rd March 2011 12:54

Keep the updates coming regarding the search progress and hopefully all other banter can be put on hold for now.

broadreach 3rd March 2011 23:33

As of right now (00:30z Alucia is still at the anchorage off Balboa awaiting a slot through the Panama Canal. Since none of us has been able to pick her up on AIS since she left Seattle, aside from a quick glimpse when she passed the US/Mexico border, we can assume that, if she has an AIS satellite transmitter (as the previous search ships had and used), she's not been using it.

For those of us who would like to follow the search efforts, we will have to wait and see whether the Alucia shows up on the AIS services that pick up satellite transmissions when she arrives/leaves Recife and is en-route to the search area. We'll know soon enough.

Dehaene 4th March 2011 12:59

Hello,

First post for me but I am following af447 threads from the beginning.

ALUCIA will go through the channel tomorrow:
see http://www.pancanal.com/evtms-rpts/dis-05.pdf

Best regards

Machinbird 4th March 2011 16:56

Thank you Dehaene. That is good news.:ok:
I was amazed it took so long to get scheduled for the transit.

Diversification 5th March 2011 00:04

AIS system
 
What is AIS:
The UN-organisation, IMO, in its International Convention for the Safety of Life at Sea (SOLAS) requires AIS to be fitted aboard international voyaging ships with gross tonnage (GT) of 300 or more tons, and all passenger ships regardless of size. AIS regularly transmits data on VHF in order to avoid collisions with other ships. It is estimated that more than 40,000 ships currently carry AIS class A equipment. In 2007 (wikipedia), the new Class B AIS standard was introduced which enabled a new generation of low cost AIS transceivers. This has triggered multiple additional national mandates from Singapore, China, Turkey and North America affecting hundreds of thousands of more vessels. The system is partly developed in Sweden and uses the STDMA protocol invented by Håkan Lans.
Regards

mm43 5th March 2011 00:06

The Automatic Identification System (AIS)
 

Originally postedby Machinbird;

I suspect that there may be a misunderstanding of what AIS can do.
I believe you may have misinterpreted Broadreach's post.
  • Broadreach has particularly been seeking AIS position reporting through satellite data acquisition.
  • Broadreach provided me with the twice daily positions of the "Seabed Worker" and the "Anne Candies" during the Phase 3 search.
  • Most administrations require that ships report their positions twice daily, and those same reports are acquired by Lloyds Intelligence.
  • Depending on a the web based provider's access to AIS data obtained by local terrestrial receiving stations, users of those web based products will be able to see plots of ships within range of each station.
  • Real-time satellite data packages are available as a small clip-on to the existing terrestrial packages, and can be programed to supply data as required to a specified end-user, e.g. continuously, or periodically via Low Earth Orbiting (LEO) satellites.
Generally, the transmission of the marine Automatic Identification System data on both of the marine VHF channels 87B (161.975 MHz) and 88B (162.025 MHz is mandatory for vessels of 300 gross registered tons and over. Exceptions are notably for naval vessels, and at the master's discretion, e.g. when the transmission of positional information may lead to the vessel being intercepted by pirates.

Note
:: The designed for use of AIS is as a collision avoidance system, whereby shipboard plotters display the relevant position, track, speed and rate of turn data, along with vessel identification and size of those vessels within VHF range of their ship. In other words it is the marine version of aeronautical secondary radar, but instead of being land-based, is ship-based - TCAS style.

This Wikipedia article is comprehensive and up to date.

Machinbird 5th March 2011 02:27


I believe you may have misinterpreted Broadreach's post
That is correct. Broadreach understands AIS in much greater detail than I presently do.:O
He has been involved in setting up these systems in a number of ports.

mm43 5th March 2011 20:15

"Alucia" - update
 
The vessel left the Panama Pacific Anchorage at 2011-03-05 2100z to commence her northbound transit of the Panama Canal. At 2115z - appears to be waiting for a pilot just to the west of her original anchorage, which has been taken by a cruise ship, the "Island Princess".

Dehaene 5th March 2011 20:45

Panama Canal
 
In fact, the canal is currently used for southbound ships.
The pipe must be emptied before northbound can start again.
We have to wait for about 5 boats i.e. 2 hours.

bearfoil 5th March 2011 20:47

POI

An interesting tidbit: As Alucia heads into the Atlantic from the Pacific, she will be heading Westerly. And drop two meters, Net.

mm43 5th March 2011 21:55


Originally posted by Dehaene;
The pipe must be emptied before northbound can start again.
They have already started the Northbound with the "Whitney Bay" and "Alucia" at 2230z.

Miraflores west lock is being used for northbound traffic.

Dehaene 5th March 2011 22:10

Yes, it seems that they now use both ways simultaneously.

Alicia just appeared on Miraflores Locks WebCam Multimedia - PanCanal.com

JD-EE 5th March 2011 22:20

2319z has Alucia approaching the Mirafloras locks, the first of the three sets on her passage through the canal.

Edit: Hm, fiddling with the map I found more information.

The Whitney Bay is in the lead. And there are four ships still coming South to get through if they truly run only one way at a time. One of the four is just about clearing the locks at this moment. It looks like Alucia and Whitney Bay are going to get into the locks going North before the pipeline is cleared.

Go to the pancanal.com site and you can find live video of the passage if you get there soon enough.

mm43 5th March 2011 22:27

At 2326z the "Whitney Bay" & "Alucia" are entering Miraflores west.

Multimedia - PanCanal.com

JD-EE 5th March 2011 22:36

They are in the lock. The lock is closing. And a ship just entered the other end going South, on the other lane of course.
2135z

mm43 5th March 2011 22:45

There are 2 lock chambers, and you will see the vessels again (if sufficient lighting) when they are in or leaving the second chamber on the High Resolution camera.

JD-EE 5th March 2011 22:55

There is sufficient lighting. They turned on the lights. I guess they like to see what they are doing.

Chris Scott 5th March 2011 23:18

On the webcam, looks like Alucia is exiting the Miraflores lock behind Whitney Bay now?

How many hopes and prayers must go with her...

(0025z Now see from map that Alucia has exited, leaving Whitney Bay behind.)

Thanks for all the links, you guys.

auv-ee 6th March 2011 00:04

For any who missed it: Alucia leaves Mirasflores lock...

http://i52.tinypic.com/33o17oh.gif (animated gif)

JD-EE 6th March 2011 03:55

For reference the Alucia is in the Western middle Gatun lock at the time this message was posted. So I suspect she'll be on her way and again out of our sight until she gets to Recife, estimated on the 18th at "22:11 (UTC)". I am amazed or at least bemused at the "precision" here. Gee, if she hits it on the head that says something about the sloppiness of airline flights, doesn't it?

(Grinning, ducking, running ->>>> THAT WAY FAST!) ->>>>>>>>>>>

Dehaene 6th March 2011 05:39

Alucia
 
She is still visible.
She dropped anchor at Colon on the other side of the Canal.

Ship trip are sooo slow...

mm43 6th March 2011 21:29


I am amazed or at least bemused at the "precision" here.
The accuracy involved is mind boggling when you consider that with a known distance and a best guess average speed, the computer doesn't understand such subtleties and the answer is always to x decimal places!

In any-case the best guess average speed appears to be 10.75 knots, and I suspect they will be lucky to maintain that, as for starters, the leg ENE to the north of Colombia is often subject to a strong ENE wind with accompanying sea and swells. After passing Curacao the winds will be lighter, but the surface current sets along the coast to the WNW and will peg back their GS.

Edit ::
ETA Recife 201103182011z per "Alucia" AIS
Last Pos'n. 201103061602z 9 43'N 79 31'W Distance 3141NM
Period 12 days 4 hours 09 min = 292.15 Hours
3142/292.15 = 10.75 knots

broadreach 6th March 2011 22:27

Alucia's last position picked up by AIS was leaving Colon at 18:01z, and where she gives an ETA Recife of 18 March which is consistent with a speed of 12kn for the distance of 3,161nm. The last AIS data shows her at 12.9kn - consistent with wanting to get the hell away from the anchorage and arriving ships and into open water where the crew can settle into a routine for the next eleven days :)

Don't expect to see much of her until she passes Aruba and then north of Trinidad. Unless she surprises us and begins transmitting her position by satellite.

broadreach 8th March 2011 19:25

JD-EE - the sloppiness of airline flights....
 
Totally off-thread but remotely related and on a lighter note: no need to run JD; a lot of us rely on the aviation equivalent of AIS to track where in the world our so-mobile family members are, so we know what time to head for the airport etc.

That's what I was doing on Saturday evening. And Sunday morning. And Sunday evening. Mrs b was returning from Miami to Rio on a flight that went tech for 16 hours. Mrs b is quiet, patient (she would be, considering who she married), pretty organized, understands that tech happens and prefers, when in doubt, to stay on terra firma until all's fixed.

And, for Lomapaseo's interest, she also comments favourably on what she sees as great forbearance and good communication from the flight deck in the pre-departure confusion. She is not amongst the group who are suing :)!

HarryMann 10th March 2011 00:00


The UN-organisation, IMO, in its International Convention for the Safety of Life at Sea (SOLAS) requires AIS to be fitted aboard international voyaging ships with gross tonnage (GT) of 300 or more tons, and all passenger ships regardless of size. AIS regularly transmits data on VHF in order to avoid collisions with other ships. It is estimated that more than 40,000 ships currently carry AIS class A equipment
Is this how Somali pirates seem to know just where their next target ship is and seem to manage to intercept so easily?

broadreach 10th March 2011 03:10

HarryMann
 
A ship can switch off its AIS transmitter easily and I think most in the Indian Ocean do so. Whether they turn off the satellite transmitter as well as the VHF one, I wonder: there are pros and cons there. I've no doubt the Somali pirate backers (and many other organisations interested in targeting vessels with potentially juicy returns) have access to both. But so do the naval forces in the region. If you turn off the satellite tracking you disappear from the naval forces' screens as well. Sod's Law.

mm43 10th March 2011 03:16

The trouble with the Somali pirates, is that they will proceed many 100's of miles off the coast, and they themselves will not be detected by other ship's AIS. But they are equipped with a receive only AIS, and the rest is history.

It's a bit difficult to convince naval craft that you have a good reason not to have your AIS running when 200 miles or more from the coast, but as you know, the results are seen every day. The stuff that makes it to the media, is just the tip of the iceberg.

dfish 15th March 2011 20:19

I just watched this documentary on AF447, they suggest that super-cooled water vapour frooze the pitot tubes causing multiple system failures. The documentary can be seen here.

Lost: Mystery of Flight 447 - The Passionate Eye | CBC News Network

wes_wall 15th March 2011 23:50

Not available outside of Canada.

auv-ee 16th March 2011 00:16

The trailer for the CBC program can be viewed outside of Canada. That shows it to be basically the same program as both the one that aired on the BBC last year in the UK, and the re-narrated version that aired on PBS/NOVA last month in the USA. The trailer notes that the broadcast coincides with the start of the Phase 4 search, so possibly it has a little information added, but likely not.

Machaca 16th March 2011 00:22

AF447 Documentary
 
There is really just one (speculative) documentary, produced by Darlow Smithson Productions. It was aired last year by the BBC in the UK and the PBS program NOVA in the US, and now by the CBC in Canada.


wes_wall -- you may view it here.

broadreach 16th March 2011 00:59

And as for the "Alucia", last picked up by AIS north of Trinidad on 11 March, doing 11.8 knots. The ETA Recife, 18 March I think it was, looks good.


All times are GMT. The time now is 00:39.


Copyright © 2026 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.