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OP symptoms
Iompaseo,
Organophosphate Poisoning - symptoms and treatment | Dr Myhill Here's a good list for starters - real pilots don't get sick - they just have 'Mysterious ill's which they can't identify the cause of...until it's too late' OP's take out your Central Nervous System (multiple system failure) and by definition - we all have different genes and exposures - it's a complete lottery. One third - 33% are poor detoxifiers and will suffer - if you don't, good for you. I am seriously envious of the 67%. DB :ok: |
Filter
I am surprised nobody has mentioned this report so far.. Credit to BBC news website.
BBC News - A cleaner future in the air? Ref: I've never had any problems.....etc, about 30 years ago I took an interest in the un-willingness of MAFF (Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food) as it then was, to strive for any conclusions or further any definitive research into the OP/sheep-dip problems in the face of statistics showing the increasing numbers of farmers experiencing physical/mental/suicidal problems. Leaving out of the equation any possible pressures by the Agro-chemical industry, they were aided in their inertia by those users who would say - 'bunch of whingers, I've been gargling with/bathing in this stuff without any ill-effects for fifty years' while at the same time previously sane, upstanding, hard-working farmers who used OP sheep-dips were shooting/hanging themselves for no apparent reason. As mentioned, it's a lottery who gets affected (in aviation and, previously ((before the banning of OP sheep-dips)), in agriculture) and who does not. |
Aerotoxic - Rubbish - the Airline Manager view point
What a load of complete alamist nonesense your site is. A blatent attempt to boost sales of a completely useless product through feer. Absolute rubbish! Generally we find that people 'get it' - but only when they have been personally affected by serious ill health, which they can link to their repeated 'normal' exposures to oil fumes over many years. I can assure the Airline Manager that 'sales' are non existent, at the moment. It's colleagues health we are concerned about. All comments gratefully recieved - in the interests of a healthy debate on the issue - that won't go away. DB :ok: |
More from the telegraph: Boeing 787 Dreamliner is a breath of fresh cabin air
Boeing 787 Dreamliner is a breath of fresh cabin air The successful launch of the Boeing Dreamliner this week has highlighted concerns about the amount of toxic air in conventional aircraft cabins. By Charles Starmer-Smith Published: 8:00AM GMT 19 Dec 2009 The new lightweight plane, which is designed to cut fuel costs by 20 per cent, has been hailed as the answer to the problem of contaminated air that scientists claim affects up to 200,000 British passengers each year – known in the industry as aerotoxic syndrome. Since 1963, all commercial aircraft have used the "bleed air" system, whereby compressed air is drawn through the engines and into the cabin. The air passes through filters that remove bacteria or viruses but do not remove fumes or vapours from the engine – so if there is an oil or hydraulic fuel leak, toxic chemicals can contaminate the air supply. On its new Dreamliner, Boeing is to pump fresh cabin air from a separate source (away from the engines) for the first time since the Fifties. This had previously been deemed too expensive. "This marks a serious milestone in aviation history, with the long-awaited first flight of the Boeing 787 Dreamliner," said Tristan Lorraine, a former commercial pilot and spokesman for the Global Cabin Air Quality Executive (GCAQE), which represents thousands of airline staff. "The GCAQE urges other manufacturers to design aircraft with this new 'bleed-free' design and stop using out-of-date technologies, which fail to protect passengers and crews from being exposed to toxic chemicals." Earlier this year, undercover investigators claimed to have found high levels of a dangerous toxin on several planes using the bleed-air system. Of 31 swab samples taken secretly from the aircraft cabins of popular airlines, 28 were found to contain high levels of tricresyl phosphate (TCP), an organophosphate contained in modern jet oil as an anti-wear additive, which can lead to drowsiness, respiratory problems and neurological illnesses. Dr Mackenzie Ross, a clinical neuropsychologist at University College London, has claimed that contaminated cabin air may affect up to 200,000 passengers each year. A Telegraph Travel investigation last year disclosed that hundreds of incidents of contaminated air had been reported by British pilots. Reports linking exposure to contaminated air with long-term harm to health have led to an increase in the number of passengers and crew seeking redress. Earlier this year a former American Airlines attendant, Terry Williams, 40, launched a lawsuit against Boeing over illnesses she claims were caused by toxic fumes. A spokesman for the Civil Aviation Authority said that investigations were continuing, but that there was no evidence of a link between cabin air and ill health. |
I'd like to see the design of the new compressors.
AFAIK a defective compressor can contaminate air. In the current system the air DOES NOT pass through the engine. It is bled off the compressor several stages before the combustion chamber. Contamination may take place typically if the forward compressor bearing is leaking lubricating oil. Will the new system have separate compressors with no forward bearing? Could be done - in fact it was done in the days of radial compressors. |
CAA - Wrong and they know it...
A spokesman for the Civil Aviation Authority said that investigations were continuing, but that there was no evidence of a link between cabin air and ill health. It is plain wrong that the CAA still claim breathing toxic oil fumes for hours on end in the confines of a passenger jet does not lead to ill health. People might be poisoned - but they are not stupid. As Mandy Rice Davies of Profumo fame, once innocently said: "They would say that - wouldn't they?" DB :yuk: |
there was no evidence of a link between cabin air and ill health. It is plain wrong that the CAA still claim breathing toxic oil fumes for hours on end in the confines of a passenger jet does not lead to ill health. DB, I don't have an axe to grind, honest! If there is a widespread problem then I want to see it fixed. I have children and grandchildren who travel by air. Bit like AGW, I'm not entirely convinced. |
Basil,
Most people accept that breathing toxic smoke fumes can kill in under a minute. Do you? And surveying around 900 cabin crew produced the following result - why would people make it up? Illness among cabin crew heightens toxic air fears - Telegraph We know that you have to personally experience it to believe it. But if you read most of the information at Aerotoxic Assiociation - Support for sufferers of Aerotoxic Syndrome you might begin to understand the various factors and exercise the precautionary principle - for the kids sake? All we are interested in are the facts - people can work it out for themselves. DB :ok: |
EASA Contaminated air survey deadline - Friday 8th January 2010
Fellow aviators,
Here is your last chance to make your feelings known to EASA (European Aviation Safety Agency) about contaminated cabin air. Whatever your views good or bad, soon it will be the last opportunity to let them know how you feel about this serious health and flight safety issue. New pilots may want some simple technical changes, if they expect a long, healthy career.... Whilst those who claim to have never been affected - can make their views felt too. European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) Cabin Air Quality survey Everybody is invited to complete the simple survey or send a more detailed e mail with your views - in confidence. Remember, If you tell them nothing, EASA will assume it's all OK.... DB :ok: |
Dutch TV reports on fumes in the cockpit
The best kept secret in aviation according to Zembla TV!
http://zembla.vara.nl/Afleveringen.1973.0.html?&tx_ttnews[tt_news]=21913&tx_ttnews[backPid]=1972&cHash=cb708d89f8 Intersting report, but how to explain: Aircraft accidents and other causes of death among... [Aviat Space Environ Med. 2002] - PubMed result "Due to aircraft accidents young pilots have a higher mortality rate than the general population; other harmful effects on the mortality of pilots in their workplace were not found. At all ages pilots have a better life expectancy than the general population." |
Dutch TV reports on fumes in the cockpit online
For those ho want to view the documentary on line (part in English) go:
Afleveringen: ZEMBLA |
'Lethal toxic air report' attacked as a whitewash
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A 320 - All jets (except the B 787)
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'Lethal toxic air report' attacked as a whitewash
Has the report actually been published as I could not find it on the Dft website?
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Cranfield 2 1/2 years - not long enough....
No Cranfield report - despite waiting 2 1/2 years to "urgently identify the visible chemicals in a fume event" on the ground in a BAe 146.
Flight International are onto it though....."Clearing the fog". It should make MOL splutter on his cornflakes. http://www.aerotoxic.org/download/do...ng_the_fog.pdf DB :mad: |
So the report, which has not been published, is called a cop out. Thanks for the link to the FI article which indeed gives a good deal of background.It does not help though when interested parties just make knee jerk reactions and also the article could not be said to be unbiassed. There is a truth somewhere in all this but entrenched views on both sides don't help getting to the bottom of it.
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Converted - slowly.
Tocamak,
David Learmount, who wrote the Flight International article, was completely unsympathetic around 3 years ago - then he took some time to consider the evidence and now is sure that repeatedly breathing toxic fumes in a confined space makes some people seriously ill. The only way to get to the bottom of it is a bit of honesty - what are the visible oil fumes made up of - why won't they tell us? The next thing is they will be telling us: "They are good for us...." DB :mad: |
repeatedly breathing toxic fumes in a confined space makes some people seriously ill |
German TV - Aerotoxic Syndrome
DasErste - Plusminus: ENGLISH Version: Aerotoxic Syndrome Broadcast Tuesday 16th March 2010.
Do not watch this if you are upset at seeing "humans being treated like animals". DB :mad: |
The bias or otherwise of the Flight International report actually was not my real point but rather the dismissal, in the sunday paper, of a report by Cranfield which is not likely to be published for some weeks yet. Capt Michaelis says the report is a "cop out" but has she been given a draft version to comment on or is this just an anticipation that it will not match what is wanted? I am not saying that there is not a problem but again just trying to highlight that it does no good pre-empting something which has not been seen. There are plenty of people I know who have an interest in getting to the truth and this does not help.
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'Identify the substances in a fume event'
Tocamak,
Cranfield University were very simply asked 'to identify the substances in a fume event' in 2007. This is not rocket science. The continued absence of this factual data - does tend to make many people wonder why it has not been published? My bet is that it will be published on the UK General Election day. 6th May 2010. That's what I would do. DB :mad: |
Apparently the report will not be published for some months as Prof Muir passed away last week.
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Contaminated air
I found out recently BALPA know that no UK airline has done a risk assessment regarding toxic fume exposure on airlines, COSHH regulations not being enforced.
Come on.... What is a union for if not to protect the members. Come on BALPA be a union..... start protecting the workers. |
Toxic, Dangerous, nuisance.....
Airlines: Gift im Flieger? (engl. Version) - markt - WDR Fernsehen
In this German TV report of 29th March 2010: The oil company admits the oil fumes are TOXIC. The aircraft manufacturer admits they are DANGEROUS. Whilst the airline admits they are a .......NUISANCE. They would say that - but which is it - taking the precautionary principle? DB :mad: |
Airlines: Gift im Flieger? (engl. Version) - markt - WDR Fernsehen In this German TV report of 29th March 2010: The oil company admits the oil fumes are TOXIC. The aircraft manufacturer admits they are DANGEROUS. Whilst the airline admits they are a .......NUISANCE. They would say that - but which is it - taking the precautionary principle? It's like smoking or using tobacco. When does it become toxic? Life is full of toxicity if things get out of balance vs individual tollerance |
It's toxic!
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Yes, the 146 of which I have no knowledge whatsoever except for that one aircraft's reputation for industrial smells in the cabin which seem to set it aside from any other western passenger jet.
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Court Judgement
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David Learmount's BLOG
Behind the toxic smokescreen - Learmount
"BALPA must have as a primary objective to keep its pilots employed. If a few get sick well so be it, we are not a union - we are an association to further our members needs and salary. Passengers are not anything to do with us." This comment sounds familiar....until the mindless author gets sick. DB :yuk: |
Filtering ain't so easy
Filtering whatever suspended particulates there may be is one thing, but the real problem is that the troublemakers aren't IMHO particulates. By the time they reach your nose, I presume it's all gaseous. Given the flowrates for cabin air exchange, you may need a fairly sizable organic vapor absorbing cartridge. Think lavatory-sized, to be replaced daily if there is a significant sustained presence of volatile organics. Alternatively, have two cartridges, and switch the flow from primary to alternate once you start smelling things. I have never smelled anything in-flight, luckily, only on the ground during engine startup, so I wasn't even aware that organic vapors are an in-flight problem! One learns every day.
Alas, my personal biggest concern would be mold in the evaporators of the air conditioner packs -- both on-plane and ground equipment. |
Recals filters are not VOC filters!
"The recirc filters (provided they are clean and serviceable) are capable of removing SARS virus and similar, suspended in the cabin air. How can they 'not' remove these chemicals ?" They are particulate filters. The bad organics are gaseous once they reach your nose.
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VOC senstivity varies
I should also point out that individual sensitivity to VOCs varies, perhaps by an order of magnitude in terms of concentration for healthy people, and even more if you're already sick or presensitized.
As for presensitization, here's an anecdote: When I was a kid, I always had to take anti-nausea drugs before flying, otherwise I'd throw up and be miserable all the time (motion sickness!). Before I started taking those drugs, I'd sometimes make it through the flight, feeling quite ill but not quite having to use the barf bag. Then we'd land, go through all the motions, get out of the airport, and get on a city bus that was leaking just a teeny weeny bit of exhaust into the cabin. Bam, throw up right then and there, before the thing would even get in motion! |
David Learmount's BLOG
This comment sounds familiar....until the mindless author gets sick However the parallels the blog draws between the tobacco industry and the aviation one are a bit tenuous. When litigation finally succeded in the mid 90's it was uncovered that there were numerous memos flying around that showed the industry was well aware of the damaging nature of tobacco smoking. The industry denied any link throughout and actively worked against any researcher who took a contrary view. Richard Doll showed in 1954 that there was a link yet the industry tried to rubbish his research at every turn. My view is that the airline industry and the campaigners are stuck in the position of not having enough evidence to show a definitive link as there has been no peer reviewed research which does show this. Individuals may win court cases based on law intended for other industries but no wide-srpead precedent has been set saying that the aviation industry is aware of the problem but are actively working to cover it up. Please note that I am not trying to say there is or is not a problem here other than at the moment there is not enough research done which can be used one way or the other. |
More research......
Tocamak,
There has been enough international research done (and cover up's) to conclude that breathing toxic oil fumes in a confined space will cause ill health. The only slight difficulty is that some people can't seem to apply this simple logic to the interior of a passenger airliner. Until now. Comment: clearing the toxic air DB :ok: |
American Airlines emergency landing
The pilots decided to land in Iceland due to a strange smell on board which had already caused some passengers to feel ill.
14 April 2010 American Airlines makes emergency landing in Iceland | IceNews - Daily News |
BALPA - All for one and one for all?
"BALPA must have as a primary objective to keep its pilots employed. If a few get sick well so be it, we are not a union - we are an association to further our members needs and salary. Passengers are not anything to do with us." Good luck to all - stay safe and don't let the bxxxers - grind you down? DB :ok: |
Five years ago yesterday after their conference on cabin air quality, BALPA General Secretary Jim McAuslan said in his closing speech “Is there a problem? The answer is quite clear – Yes. Story after story, study after study, testimony after testimony from across the world and from other industries with similar exposures, show that chemicals exposures of the type experienced by workers in the aviation industry cause health problems.” and pledged to get it all sorted out.
These days the BALPA line is “There is no evidence at present for a link to long term health effects but research concerning fume events continues.” Oh yes, research. The great thing about it is that when you’ve finished it, you can call for more research, so you never actually need to admit there's a problem or do anything about it. Video: McAuslan’s conference closing speech. |
I was there at the conference 5 years ago, that speech is PRICELESS!
Shame on you Jimbo for allowing Martin and Sandy to "Encourage" you into your U Turn.:yuk::yuk::yuk: What has been achieved 5 years on? Bu@@er All............. |
German TV reports DC8 & B 787 & Bleed air....
Two German TV reports (English subtitles) which provide a useful comparison between the DC8, B 787 & bleed air.
YouTube - Airlines: Gift im Flieger? - Teil 2 von 2 YouTube - Airlines: Poison in aircraft? As it says on a cigarette packet " Smoking seriously harms you and others around you" (except for oil smoke in an airliner)....:zzz: DB :ok: |
BALPA and CAQ
The Aerotoxic Association are also completely unimpressed by BALPA’s continued refusal to do anything and have filed a formal complaint. Not only that, they even refuse to inform their members of the dangers. Who knows what the internal politics are or what cosy deals they have going on with the airlines, regulators or research establishments, but it’s not on – aircrew and passenger health continue to be ruined while BALPA continue to do less than nothing.
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