|
GM Aircrew
Big Bad D,
Dream Buster, instead of yet another speech, please help share the answer to the reasonable question posed by FullWings: "What kind of filters are these and what are they filtering?" To be honest I am not a filter expert but I can put you in touch with one who assures us that anything is possible but in the past cost has put airlines off (may add 10p to the cost of a ticket...) but really it is the fact that all of us 'victims' will want to know "why now?" Which might be 'tricky' to answer? Most kids would come up with filters as a means of cleaning air and the filter companies know all about it. We have been trying to get the UK Govt to identify the visible fumes from an APU on the ground, which can be generated in minutes. After 2 full years they STILL do not know. That sounds a bit like denial and not wanting to face the truth to me. (Correction they DO know, but they don't want the likes of you and me to know). How does that make you feel? Full wings That's a big job, currently being worked on by far better qualified people than myself and I don't see a conclusion even on the horizon yet... Even the word aerotoxic is off limits for much of the media, including the BBC. That makes open debate quite difficult.... Full wings underestimate yourself, if you saw the data you would blow the whistle too. I guess everybody is aware of the smoking issue which went on for years and years - I wonder why? and now MOST people agree that breathing smoke is BAD for you. Well I breathed visible smoke / fumes for 16 years (Thank you Vertical Speed) which contain neuro toxic chemicals - I only found out a year after I stopped flying that I had TCP in me....having had exactly the same symptoms that the oil tin described - IT DOES WHAT IT SAYS ON THE TIN! By the way, they have taken the warning off now! As too many people were complaining of ill health. More evidence of a very dirty, messy business. Just like V/S I have been lucky to have regained my former good health but I know many who have not been so fortunate and there is now an ever growing list of past victims dying prematurely - that's as bad as it gets and it just makes me feel sick - again. Sorry to bang on but this is a really important issue which accounts for masses of serious mysterious ill health and it's about time it was stopped, for everybody's sake. Full Wings, please PM me if I can help provide you with the convincing evidence you need and thanks to the Mods for letting it roll.... DB :ok: |
Health risks...
Having spent over 9 years at university in Europe and the United States and close to 8 years in industrial research and development before changing tracks and becoming an airline pilot I´d like to add some views to this discussion.
Based on my own scientific experience with analytical techniques like chromatography, atomic absorption spectroscopy etc. , verification of compounds on a molecular level, i.e. single molecules, is state of the art. The fact that some compounds are shown to be present at molecular level doesn´t mean you will get sick. Now where is the pathogenic level ? While some people suffer from symptoms some don´t, at the same exposure level. Our own genetic fingerprint makes us unique in our looks as well as our ability to get sick or not. While the TCP issue is of concern, I am always amazed about the fact that hard and cosmic radiation effects are quite often overlooked or even ignored just because you can´t smell it nor see it. We all drink a hot cup of coffee out of plastic cups on a daily basis, finish that PET-bottle of water every day to fight the dry air up there, yet we silently accept to “digest” small little molecules of PET processing additives without really knowing its long term effects on our health. We use our cellular phones and sit at the desk and write comments like this on PPRUNE while the WLAN antenna is radiating. Feel the headache ? Our cardio-vascular systems are subjected to heavy loads of submicron or more trendy “nano” carbon particles from our engines on the ground and from our cars while driving to and from duty. I think, I call in sick tomorrow… |
Dream Buster, I have in the past participated in the reviews of a number of the fune and incapacitation incidents that have been referred to; and my personal conclusion is that there is indeed a significant issue that needs to be addressed and which some people unfortuantely appear more prone to. However, behind the allegations of industry cover-ups, I have yet to be convinced that there is adequate understanding of exactly what are the causes and hence the appropriate solutions. And I don't believe that this is through a lack of industry testing and analysis. Hence my quite genuine desire to know what it is you believe we should be filtering against?
I am not disagreeing with you that there are people with severe medical issues and that something should be done based on sound investigations. But I am frustrated to keep hearing the same knee-jerk campaigns that seem to suggest that the industry already knows what the problem is and how it should be fixed. The only 100% safe solution I know of, where there would never be a risk of oil contamination, would be to ground all current generation aircraft that use engine bleed air... |
Over 24 hours of breathing visible oil fumes...
Big Bad D,
I'll try and keep it simple - as it is important. When you start an APU on a 146 it is very easy to mistakenly fill the entire aircraft with visible or stinky invisible oil fumes. I have many testimonies from pilots who will confirm this. This phenomenon is actually referred to in BBC Panorama - 'Something in the air?' here At the bottom of the home page. So if one flew for 16 years it would be say 10 minutes exposure to these fumes X 3 days per week = 30 minutes per week X 40 weeks per year = 1200 minutes = 20 hours per year X 16 years = 320 hours exposure to breathing visible oil fumes. Divide it by 10 for reality = 32 hours. Over 24 hours breathing visible oil fumes in a confined space spread repetetively over 16 years. You can put various numbers into the above equation but you are left with people (pilots and Cabin Crew) breathing visible smoke in a confined space - repetetively. So the question is, what is in the fumes? We have been asking the DfT for the chemicals and concentration for over 2 years now and guess what? Nobody knows - well they do, but it is bad news so they don't want people to know. This information would provide the filter manufacturers with a very good idea of how to make their filters and what to filter out. None of this is 'knee jerk' - they are cold hard facts waiting to be published one day and the industry is in total denial of the danger of these fumes and what's worse, they know it. How do they get away with it? Well the fumes cook ones brain to the point that one can't rationally deal with it. The perfect crime? Any bleed air aircraft can create visible oil fumes - another fact. DB :ouch: PS. I also had a full blown fume event in 2002 when the whole a/c (not the cockpit) filled with thick white smoke for around 5 minutes after t/o - I felt really ill (I was already seriously ill at the time from 1989) for months and years afterwards until I finally quit flying in 2005. I knew nothing of this subject at the time and would not know anything about it until mid 2006 - please learn from my experience, if you value your health? |
de-icing fluid also
De icing fluid also can get into the system via the APU inlet, thats pretty nasty too apart from the organo' oil mist hazard.
This is a REAL problem folks but as usual the bean counters will win the day....:( |
Trousers down.
Old - Timer,
With the greatest of respect to you; most people would agree that the 'bean counters' are being caught with their trousers down - at the moment. DB :cool: |
Well you can actually see it and touch it ...
Just because you can't see it nor touch it it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Most of these aircraft will be 25 to 30 yrs old at the time. The avionics bay insulation and underfloor ducts, wiring and cabling will usually have a sticky to the touch thin film of 'something' but it smells like engine oil , it's so uniform it looks like it's been sprayed on , these are in extremely unaccessible areas of the airframe which would rarely be viewed let alone cleaned during a major service. To the curious Boeing 727 + 737 classic pilots and engineers have a look behind the the forward rack in the avionics bay with a maglite (near the relay bank) and to where the walls of the avionics bay meets the bottom of the floor and you should be able to see what I am talking about. If you ever knew a really heavy smoker who liked to smoke with the windows closed in the car it's like the sticky tar that gets left on the inside of a car's windows. By comparison cable runs and other components in the top of the fuselage (behind the ceiling panels) still look like new 30 yrs after installation , clean ! So there is some evidence as the aircraft get's older (due to components not working as well as they did or less than optimum maintenance) contaminents are entering the pressure compartment and over a period of decades you can see it in some parts of the aircraft. |
Breathtaking complacency
At Flight International/flightglobal.com we don't just believe toxic cabin air is a serious issue, we know it is and have demonstrated it, publishing the evidence.
The result has been total silence from the industry. No denials, because they know they can't deny it. No complaints, because they want the issue to remain obscure. They know the burden of proof remains, at present, with the many pilots and cabin crew who have been damaged by TCP and other neurotoxins in aircraft cabins, and with the unknown number of passengers who simply don't have any way of knowing where their distressing symptoms have suddenly emerged from. We have been appalled by the pilot unions' complicity in this cover-up. They think jobs are more important than lives and licences. In the face of this apparently unscaleable wall of complacency we have set up a space on our forum AirSpace here: Have you suffered from contaminated cabin air? - Airliners/Freighters Forum - AirSpace We are not trying to gather more evidence - we have that in spades and have watched in disbelief as the entire system, including members of parliament, either ignore it or have the wooll pulled over their eyes. We are trying to get those have suffered or are suffering from aerotoxic syndrome, to tell us their story publicly. They can identify themselves if they want to, but - especially if they are pilots who fear the loss of their jobs by reporting, or those who have received compensation subject to a gagging order - we promise we will keep their identities confidential if they want us to. We want those who have suffered to paint a picture of the scale of human misery that this avoidable situation has created, and will continue to create. Until such a time as there is a mandate from national aviation authorities for fitting contaminant detectors/alerts and bleed air filters to take out the neurotoxins in all aircraft (HEPA filters don't do it and they're wrongly placed in the system), this problem remains a risk in all pressurised aeroplanes flying today. If you want the background to our campaign, visit my blog.but the most important thing is for those who have a story to tell to go to the previous link and tell the world just how bad it is if you get a dose of this contamination. |
What engineers find under the floor.
It would be very interesting to get some sample swabs of that stuff, just to see.
|
Southern boy,
I regret to say that there are so many obvious things to test in connection with contaminated cabin air. One is left with the impression that the lack of information says it all. Any testing is dragged out over years and years or simply brushed under the carpet - all to prevent the truth coming out. But it will one day - then what? David L, You and your team at Flight International are to be congratulated in bringing this serious issue right to the top of the agenda. I used to read FI in the newsagent and buy it occasionally - I will be subscribing from tomorrow - I don't want to miss an issue as it heats up... I particularly enjoyed the swipe at the Union but would remind you that the brave IPA are on side and have decent morals, fortunately. What I can't work out is - How are they going to deal with this when it's all proved beyond reasonable doubt? With great difficulty? I really don't bet at all, ever - but I would on this one. DB :D |
David Learmount:
'We have been appalled by the pilot unions' complicity in this cover-up. They think jobs are more important than lives and licences.' They also provide support to the Global Cabin Air Quality Executive, as can be seen if you go to Global Cabin Air Quality Executive | GCAQE |
I just can't believe how so many people in this thread can ignore all the stories of the horrible human consequences to fellow pilots.
So you happen to be okay, right? And you've been a pilot for years, right? So you reckon the pilots who weren't so lucky deserved all they got, or are just wimps with no resistance, or they're making it up, right? This just makes me sick. Go and have a look at the human stories DL provided links to and wake up! These are people, they are pilots, and they have been badly damaged. Right? |
The avionics bay insulation and underfloor ducts, wiring and cabling will usually have a sticky to the touch thin film of 'something' but it smells like engine oil |
Dinitrol's wax, not oil, and it's not knowingly used on cabling.
|
That's quite bad, a lot of people will be at stake as a result of these 'toxic' fumes. I would expect that the government would act appropriately.
Make I also ask, which organisation would be in charge in this sort of incident? I also find it quite interesting that not all aircrafts are the same in terms of the Pressurisation. - Learnt something new! :ok: (I'm a wannabe) |
shortfinals,
If you want to be taken seriously then you need to calm down a bit - and stop putting words into people's mouths. |
Basil, with respect, I can't calm down when my fellow pilots are being poisoned and people tell me to calm down about it.
The fact that everybody's taking this so calmly that nothing's being done about it is what makes me angry. |
I would not deny that there is or at times may be contamination in public transport cabins. A thread was started last year which seemed to have a bit of an axe to grind, together with some very unlikely contamination suggestions. Because one type has a bad reputation amongst crewmembers does not mean that all aircraft are affected.
I'm probably guilty of doing the old 'when I were lad' re air contamination in industry, plating shops, diesel engine rooms and industrial towns and comparing those conditions with modern elfin safety rules. p.s. Sorry for being a bossyboots. |
19 different aircraft types
Basil,
There were 48 Contaminated Air Events notified to the AAIB from 6th February 2006 - 11th November 2007. This was made up of 19 different aircraft types. Any bleed air system is capable of producing fumes / smoke when it goes wrong. Ask Boeing.... DB :eek: |
GERMAN TV Program in English now available for online viewing
This is to inform you that the original German TV program about this issue as of Feb. 3rd 2009 is now available for online viewing at the following link:
DasErste - Video Player happy landings TvB |
The independent gave a full page to Aerotoxic Syndrome this morning ...
The Independent: Cabin fever: A bad case of Aerotoxic syndrome? |
TNT Airways sacks pilot-activist who drew attention to "aerotoxic syndrome"
According to a Dutch newspaper Kristof Van Gerven (35) a TNT pilot living in Genk (Belgium) was sacked by TNT Airways because he drew to much attention to what is taboo in the business "aerotoxic syndrome"!
In Dutch, "Planes are flying gass chambers..." http://www.hbvl.be/limburg/genk/het-zijn-vliegende-gaskamers.aspx Google translation (beware for...): Kristof Van Gerven 29/08 (35) from Genk was dismissed last week by courier company TNT Airways. There was no reason given, but perhaps he was put on the door because he was one of the few pilots a problem proposed that the airline industry for decades to suppress: that the air in most planes heavily polluted by highly toxic substances. World suffer thousands of pilots, cabin crew and passengers on the so-called aero toxic syndrome, also known as the "asbestos of the air" mentioned. "Most appliances are flying gas chamber," Van Gerven. He went in August 2000 as a pilot to work with TNT Airways Bierset. In 2003 he was the Dutch top photographer Anton Corbijn has Snapped at the cover of the annual report of TNT Airways, to adorn, but last week, the company made the pilot to the door. In the resignation letter gave no reason, but Van Gerven suspects that his long illness was the cause. Asbestos Scandal of the air In November 2007 the Limburger was forced to stop flying. Ill, by the polluted air on board the aircraft. Aero Toxic Syndrome, was the diagnosis. "This is a general term for health problems that you incur when your polluted air on board an aircraft have breathed," said Van Gerven. "It affects everyone on board, pilots, cabin crew and passengers." The aviation industry remains silent about it for decades, but recently more and more articles appearing on what the "scandal of the Asbestos air 'painting. In the 60s, the pure air through a compressor placed separately in the passenger cabin. Engineers have calculated that they could save weight and place when the air aftakten by the engine goes, the so-called bleed air system. "The idea is good in theory, to eventually follow, the inevitable leakage of oil in the combustion process correctly. This will organe phosphates in the air, including toxic and harmful TCP. "Frightening, because all aircraft in use today have some bleed air system. Only the latest Boeing 787 that will soon not start his career. The toxic substances can cause problems in the short and long term. Short term symptoms are disorientation, tired eyes, irritated airways, breathing difficulties, coughing, vomiting, loss of balance, dizziness, tremor, blurred vision and headaches. Lost consciousness "In the beginning you think you are tired or cold and just keep working. So sometime I lost consciousness at the controls. Only when I start asking me questions and I soon noticed that I was not alone. Only attempt the sector - manufacturers and airlines - to conceal this. The fact is that most aircraft are flying gas chamber. Independent measurements have shown that the air on board is often heavily polluted. "Long-term exposure can lead to memory loss, acute diarrhea, respiratory problems, increased heart rate, hair loss, skin rashes, muscle pains, difficulty sleeping, increased sensitivity to chemicals and chronic fatigue. Van Gerven, whose sentences are constantly interrupted by coughing, suffering from most of these inconveniences. "I'm not the same. Previously I took part in triathlons, today I can not walk without my 100 meter air needs to happen. " There is also a social drama. Thus, Van Gerven since November 2007 he was almost incapable of work have no money. "In the beginning I got unemployment, but fell away after six months. Now I get through a hole in the social legislation. No pay, no sickness and no unemployment benefits. To my resignation last week I received my monthly TNT Airways however loonbrief.Altijd same amount: 0 euro. " Van Gerven flew above the BAe 146. The unit of British Aerospace manufacturer has a bad reputation in terms of air quality. "Most pilots or crew members have already become ill during flights of this type. "Currently there are more than 150 aircraft in use by the most famous airlines. TNT Airways has 14 copies still serve. Remarkable, because in its own bulletin in black and white that the high disease rate in the BAe 146 fleet is a major problem. And in the maintenance record is often reported problems with the oil. Van Gerven: "First I want to be known and solved problem. Even sick people every day without knowing the cause. More importantly, every day there are still risks. For the ignorant passengers. " The probability is that Van Gerven his dream job can ever perform is nil. "My pilot training has cost 60,000 euros. But I will never fly an airplane. Why I retrained as a helicopter pilot. Such training also cost a fortune, around 90,000 euros, but if I can continue to fly without that I have to breathe polluted air. " Roel Damian |
"Long-term exposure can lead to memory loss, acute diarrhea, respiratory problems, increased heart rate, hair loss, skin rashes, muscle pains, difficulty sleeping, increased sensitivity to chemicals and chronic fatigue. Bring a soldier back from war where he might suffer post traumatic stress disorder and it packages up much better to claim the symtomes are caused by exposure to some unknown gas give it a name and sue for millions. Maybe stress disorders are not an emotional issue but a chemical issue? Once claimed by people having conventional metal fillings in their teeth. There has to be demonstrable reactions which can be scientifically proved to come from bleed air for anyone to do anything. At present there is no such concrete evidence and little will power to get to the truth. On the Citation I fly loosing the aircraft heating requires using unfiltered air direct from the engine to restore heat at altitude which in this case doesnt bode well for the occupants if true. It puts a question mark over the procedures recommended in the emergency flight manual. Pace |
This is sad, but it's not news
Same issue with Rainboe in the cockpit area back in the 70's/80's
Even a much smaller case, far from the headlines, can provoke Boeing's legal tenacity if manufacturing liability is at issue. In the late 1980s, Lance Schaeffer, a San Diego attorney, represented a USAir pilot, Richard O'Harren, in what became a knock-down, drag-out legal battle with Gerrard and Boeing. Boeing ultimately paid O'Harren $317,000 in compensatory damages and legal fees, after a six-year fight, for injuries O'Harren suffered when he was sprayed in the face by a windshield rain repellent called RainBoe. Invented by Boeing in the mid-'60s, RainBoe became standard equipment on jetliners. It was usually stored in a canister inside the cabin, within arm's reach of the pilot. Sometimes the canister leaked. Boeing to this day contends RainBoe is nontoxic, though 95 percent of it is a solvent, Freon 113, which has been blamed in at least 12 deaths in industrial settings. At a 1990 trial, Schaeffer produced substantial evidence that Freon 113 attacks the human central nervous system, causing disorientation, motor-skills impairment and sudden heart attack. Schaeffer also established that there was a pattern of RainBoe canisters leaking. Led by Gerrard, Boeing's defense team disputed that RainBoe was toxic, denied the company was aware of any instances of it leaking and tried to portray O'Harren as a malingerer, court documents show. The case swung in O'Harren's favor when the company finally produced reports, years after Schaeffer first requested them, indicating one airline had reported 55 RainBoe leak incidents in a five-year period. There was a service history of problems, after all. |
Whether it is TCP, a derivative or something harmless, the smell known as "wet sock smell" or "damp dog smell" is very very very similar to the smell of valerian acid, an oil based chemical used as esters to produce perfume.
If the smell is considered normal by some, can anyone explain to me quite simply How this oil based chemical enters the airconditioning system and why it's usually starting to happen around 5 minutes after T/D.? I think if an airliner patents a new airconditioning system that's able to filter whatever compound that causes this will see a huge profit increase. |
The best kept secret in aviation
mpjswart,
Aerotoxic Assiociation - Support for sufferers of Aerotoxic Syndrome should answer your questions. DB :ok: |
The reason the contamination enters the aircon/pressurisation system is that it comes from the engine or PU compressor and is unfiltered. the reason you may notice it more frequently about 5 minutes after touchdown would suggest the type you are flying on is more prone to APU bleed contamination than engine contamination.
This is a serious issue (I know - I've had it). It is likely to be a contributory or principle factor in many "human factors/pilot error" accidents and incidents. Banning TCP from engine oils would be a start, as would fitting filters to the outputs of the aircon packs. Boeing's decision to make the B787's pressurisation air source separate from the engines and APU is indicative of their internal acknowledgement of the issue ad is a welcome step in eliminating the problem entirely. It is appalling that Airbus did not do the same on the A380 or intending to do the same on the A350. I don't think any new aircraft should be certified if it uses bleed air for the cabin/flt deck. |
Apologies for my ignorance on this issue, but is there any scientific evidence for aerotoxic syndrome?
I've spent a while searching the normal sources for information and can't really find any articles about it. Have there ever been any in-depth studies as to the pollutants present within cabin air (based upon chemical analysis, not theory) or the effects of such pollutants upon crew/SLF? |
Let's concentrate on the potentially dangerous part of `aerotoxicity': from all the reports, it seems to be ONLY engine oil contamination of cabin air.
Organophosphate components of turbine oil are essential to ensure the extreme reliability, longevity (and thus safety) of engines; however, they are very toxic to the nervous system. Nothing else that would get into cabin air is anything like as nasty. Exposure of this type of material for a large crowd of punters can be found in farmers using sheep dip, and led to very nasty long-term consequences. Sheep farmers did effectively bathe in the stuff, though, and the concentrations of toxic compounds were higher (since the insecticide was the main ingredient). Farmers didn't however have to worry too much about losing high levels of concentration at work. Active study of the levels and long-term exposure seems to be justified. There's a large number of former flyers that can be used in these studies. They all have excellent career-long medical histories available, and a good history of hours flown per type. The move to `more electric' architectures, and pressing for improvements in the inspection, performance and lifetime of oil seals would also seem to be a sensible precaution. |
Another news video from Fox news about cabin air quality and Aerotoxic Syndrome: Is Something In the Air When You Fly?
WASHINGTON, D.C. - When you get on a plane, you see the flight attendants, the passengers, even the bags getting on board. What you don’t see is something else that might be sneaking into your cabin. “Everyone was getting sick from First Class all the way to the back. People were vomiting.” In 2000, flight attendant Ruth Medina says she was working on a 747 headed to Japan when, four hours into the flight, she says nearly everyone became ill. “By that time, I had been flying for 28 years,” Medina says. “So, I had never witnessed anything like this before.” Medina says she felt nauseous for the next 24 hours before she and her crewmates boarded the same plane to head back to the United States. “The same thing happened,” Medina says. “Four hours into the flight, the entire aircraft was ill again. People were vomiting and they were just sick.” This time, Medina says she also got sick and now, nine years later, she says she’s still dealing with confusion and other neurological problems. She is now one of several flight attendants who sued airlines saying they were exposed to toxic chemicals in the cabin’s air supply. "There are chemicals that are in hydraulic fluid or jet fuel that can get brought into the air of the aircraft," says University of California San Francisco Occupational Medicine Specialist Dr. Robert Harrison. Harrison says Medina was exposed to toxic chemicals in the plane’s “bleed air,” outside air that comes through the engines into the air conditioning system. He explains that, "This problem occurs when the mechanical system of the aircraft malfunctions and these products, when they're burned, get into the air supply system and are circulated around the cabin air.” The contaminated air, Harrison says, is similar to what you would find in dangerous pesticides and can lead to temporary symptoms that may be confused with jet lag. Sometimes, he says, the symptoms can develop into more chronic neurological problems like headaches, dizziness, loss of memory and concentration. "The name for it is Aerotoxic Syndrome," Harrison says. Aerospace Medical Association Executive Director Russell Raymond disagrees. "That term has been discredited,” Raymond says. “It implies the airliner cabin is unhealthful and there are toxic substances in the cabin. That is not true." Raymond’s group is made up of doctors and scientists who study medical problems with air travel, including bleed air. He says most airplanes use filters and the air inside a plane is actually cleaner than most people’s homes. "There are sometimes events in flights, but I think they are very, very rare and very unusual." The Federal Aviation Administration says when toxins do get into the air supply; it’s called a “fume event” and must be reported to the FAA. The FAA says there have only been 900 of these fume events in the last 10 years. Others argue it’s more common. “We estimate that this happens approximately once every 4-5,000 flights,” Harrison says. But former commercial pilot Captain John Hoyte says you probably wouldn’t even know about it because the airlines don’t have to tell you if you’ve been exposed. "It’s a very well kept secret what's going on here,” Hoyte says. “I think most people wouldn't actually understand what was affecting them at the time. That was the case with me. I only found out about it a year after I stopped flying." After more than 30 years in the air, Hoyte says he began to have memory and speech problems so severe, he was forced to quit. “One flight in 2002, the whole passenger cabin filled with white fumes.” To push the airlines into using different air supplies, Hoyte started a website devoted to Aerotoxic Syndrome (Aerotoxic Assiociation - Support for sufferers of Aerotoxic Syndrome). Ruth Medina says she still gets so disoriented, she gets lost in the same neighborhood she grew up in. “I got confused and couldn’t find my way home.” The FAA says it takes these kinds of complaints seriously and has scientists working on a device that could test for toxins inside airplanes. But it could take years to develop the technology. Leaving millions of passengers to wonder if they feel sick because of jet lag or because of something else floating in the air. |
:confused:I flew the 146 for 17 years and was a sceptic of air pollution problems. I have now lost both kidneys due to my immune system attacking my kidneys and then my lungs, and it would seem that the immune system is the prime target of TCP contamination. What is my next step?
|
Croqueteer,
I suggest you look here: Aerotoxic Assiociation - Support for sufferers of Aerotoxic Syndrome and also here: Toxic Free Airlines |
Thinking back on it (a decade or more, so please forgive any memory lapses), we often used to notice a "hot cabin air" smell when someone (including automatics) overdid the demand for cabin heat. We used to think it was "just a little oil" condensed in the ducting, and being evaporated off by high duct temp.
Top of descent will call for engines back to idle, but at the same time enough bleed pressure to pump the cabin down, and possibly high cabin heat demand too. On some engines a high/low bleed system will go into high, and hot relatively high pressure bleed air will be run through the ducting, evaporating any volatile condensates in the ducting, even before the aircon packs, and possibly downstream too. If there are organo-phosphates in the oil these could well be released into the cabin in this way. I don't know enough about organic chemistry to have an idea of evaporation or condensation temps, but I would not be surprised to find both in the operating range of of aircraft press/aircon systems. |
EASA Survey on Contaminated cabin air
EASA Survey on contaminated cabin air.
http://hub.easa.europa.eu/crt/docs/viewnpa/id_81 Please take 5 mins to fill in this survey at the end of the document on contaminated air, asap. Remember, if you say nothing - EASA will assume that everything is OK...... DB :ok: |
The EASA NPA, discussion and survey is a decent document and path to resolution of this subject. Lots of well thought out information and explanations on this highly subjective subject.
However my read of it, is that it is initially addressing any needs and/or means for assessing the depth of the problem as it relates to regulated aviation safety. In the end this forum's thread will likely continue for a few more years. |
EASA Survey on Contaminated cabin air - web site crash..
Following yesterdays post, it would appear that the EASA web site
http://hub.easa.europa.eu/crt/docs/viewnpa/id_81 has crashed - probably due to the number of people trying to input information. Here is an alternative link European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) Cabin Air Quality survey As you can imagine, EASA want as much evidence as possible (not) - so be sure to try again when it is............. 'fixed' DB :mad: |
[qouote=simonpro]Apologies for my ignorance on this issue, but is there any scientific evidence for aerotoxic syndrome?[/quote]
There is plenty of proof. Aside form the numerous incident reports and court cases (which many plaintiffs have won), there is the concrete knowledge of what organophosphate poisoning does to the human physiology and neurology, mainly from experience within the agricultural community. It is also an establiished fact that oils and skydrol create organophosphates when they break down due to the high temperatures encountered within the bleed air system. |
awblain - quote- 'Organophosphate components of turbine oil are essential to ensure the extreme reliability, longevity (and thus safety) of engines; however, they are very toxic to the nervous system. Nothing else that would get into cabin air is anything like as nasty.'
In fact there are many other things which are just as nasty as TCP, for example acrolein - an aldehyde which may be formed on the decomposition of turbine engine oils. Carbon monoxide (in non lethal doses) can also give rise to some of the symptoms and would fit more with the instances where pilots are revived by oxygen. Carbon monoxide doesn't really explain the long term effects but suggest have a look at acrolein. |
. . and, of course, there's just walking along a city street in amongst the cars, buses, lorries, two strokes, strimmers, chain saws.
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. and, of course, there's just walking along a city street in amongst the cars, buses, lorries, two strokes, strimmers, chain saws. I probably have inhaled more oil fumes with these compounds then most folks alive today, but I'm still not sure which one of my many ills has been caused by them. |
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