Log book question
 

I hope somebody can help me. I have this log book http://www.pooleys.com/prod_detail.cfm?product_id=40

I am an FO flying the A319. I have completed Base Training and am currently line training. My base is EGKK but I am temporarily out in Switzerland until Christmas.

Jar-Ops states that the operator shall designate 'one' commander for each flight but that commander may delegate the conduct of the flight to another suitable qualified pilot. All flying as "commander" shall be entered as PIC.

My only 3 columns are PIC - CoPilot - Dual

Therefore, as an FO who has been delegated PF, in which column do I log the PF hours? Am I PIC under supervision?

If I am Pilot non Flying, do I log it simply as CoPilot, or am I always CoPilot with a note in the Remarks column.

I just want to make sure before I commit to ink!

With thanks

Craggs

I heard several different opinion on this matter and at the end I am doing the following :

• the real important columns are n.5 (multi time) 6 (total flight time) and also n.9 (operational conditions).
• Column 10 is just an indication of the functions on board and Your (and mine) fonction is always of Copilot. But if a PIC acting as instructor, can and must write the time either in the PIC column or in the instructor column, I write down the time in the PIC and in the Co-pilot column whenever I act as PF.

No body, till now, here in Italy objected anything about this.

The only opinion that counts is not the one we hear more often but what is clearly written down on the jar-fcl 1.080 "Recording of Flight time".
It clearly states that a copilot may log the time as Picus time when some conditions are met.
(1) Pilot-in-command flight time
(i) The holder of a licence may log as pilot-in-command time all of the flight time during which he is the pilot-in-command.
(ii) The applicant for or the holder of a pilot licence may log as pilot-in-command time all solo flight time and flight time as student pilot-in-command provided that such SPIC time is countersigned by the instructor.
(5) PICUS (Pilot-in-command under supervision)
Provided that the method of supervision is acceptable to the Authority, a co-pilot may log as PIC flight time flown as PICUS, when all of the duties and functions of PIC on that flight were carried out, such that the intervention of the PIC in the interest of safety was not required.
(iii) The holder of an instructor rating may log as pilot-in-command all flight time during which he acts as an instructor in an aeroplane.
(d) Presentation of flight time record
(1) The holder of a licence or a student pilot shall without undue delay present his flight time record for inspection upon request by an authorised representative of the Authority.
(iv) The holder of an examiner’s authorisation may log as pilot-in-command all flight time during which he occupies a pilot’s seat and acts as an examiner in an aeroplane.
(2) A student pilot shall carry his flight time record logbook with him on all solo cross-country flights as evidence of the required instructor authorisations.
(v) A co-pilot acting as pilot-in-command under the supervision of the pilot-in-command on an aeroplane on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aeroplane or as required by JAR–OPS provided such pilot-in-command time under supervision (see (c)(5)) is countersigned by the pilot-in-command.
[Amdt. 1, 01.06.00](vi) If the holder of a licence carries out a number of flights upon the same day returning on each occasion to the same place of departure and the interval between successive flights does not exceed thirty minutes, such series of flights are to be recorded as a single entry.
INTENTIONALLY LEFT BLANK
(2) Co-pilot flight time
The holder of a pilot licence occupying a pilot seat as co-pilot may log all flight time as co-pilot flight time on an aeroplane on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aeroplane, or the regulations under which the flight is conducted.
(5) PICUS (Pilot-in-command under supervision)
Provided that the method of supervision is acceptable to the Authority, a co-pilot may log as PIC flight time flown as PICUS, when all of the duties and functions of PIC on that flight were carried out, such that the intervention of the PIC in the interest of safety was not required.

As Im line training there are some interventions so for the moment I guess I log line training as CoPilot time?

Thanks for your posts.

Craggs

You shouldn't write the flight time on both columns when you're acting as Picus.You should only enter the flight time on the PIC column,add the word Picus on the remarks and make it sign by the Captain of the flight. (as stated by the Jar-fcl 1.080)
This option is well known and used in the UK but,as usual,totally unknown in Italy:( :(

Thanks, but try to explain that to ENAC "as usual".....

I always wrote it as co-pilot. Same logbook.
I always thought you were only supposed to write this during Command evaluation and line training thereafter. To write Picus while you don't even have 100 hrs on type and perhaps even don't have an ATPL is a bit ridiculous in my book.

The important thing here is the difference between "Pilot In Command" and "Pilot Flying".
Unless you are undergoing a command assessment or training for the LHS with a certified line trainer then all first officer time whether PF or PNF should go down co-pilot time. The PIC is the commander who signs for the aircraft and he remains the PIC regardless of who is the pilot flying.



:confused: :confused:

The only way to reach the minimum pic hours to qualify for the practical atpl exam is to log the time as picus.You'll need a certain number of PIC time do qualify for it and how would you legally log them if you started as copilot with a minimum (50) hours as pic?

Thanks

fly-dj writes:
"The important thing here is the difference between "Pilot In Command" and "Pilot Flying".
Unless you are undergoing a command assessment or training for the LHS with a certified line trainer then all first officer time whether PF or PNF should go down co-pilot time. The PIC is the commander who signs for the aircraft and he remains the PIC regardless of who is the pilot flying."
That is almost correct except for the fact that PICUS is not the same as PIC.
The copilot flying the leg can legally log the time as PICus time and the captain will log them as PIC.
Thanks

Thanks Bubair. Im managing to work this out now.

I log PF duty as PICUS, with the times in the PIC column, plus Captains signature in the remarks column.

I log all PNF duty as Co-Pilot, with the times in the Co-Pilot column.

All very interesting and this has been interpreted differently in different companies/countries for as long as I can remember.

Right now, JAR-FCL rules apply but they have the "out" that a system can/must be approved by the local JAA Authority.

One interpretation of this that I heard from one JAA authority was that the FO could log it as P1CUS "provided the FO made all the decisions regarding the flight including deciding on the fuel load etc at the planning stage and the Captain did not have to intervene to override the FO's decisions at any time." The Captain was also required to sign the FO's logbook to this effect, for this particular authority to accept the time as P1.

I hear that ICAO is considering a move away from all these classifications to a simple total hours-based system which would be good news for all.

But thats my point. Simply being the plilot flying does not make you the pilot in command or even the pilot in command under supervision. As SIDSTAR pointed out:
Being responsible for the conduct of the flight ie. decisions on fuel, route, met, cargo loading & signing of loadsheets / techlogs / manifests etc or training for such make you the PIC or PICus.

It seems not so.

I also emailed 12 FO friends of mine from 5 different UK airlines and they all reported that PF goes into the PIC column with the Captains signature and PICUS in the remarks column and all their PNF time has gone into the Co-Pilot column.

Have those UK Airlines and all the Captains who have signed got it wrong?

No!

fly-dj has. Using his system it would take some people about 20years (or more) to get the PIC hours required for an ATPL.

If you're PF put it in the PIC column and get the capt to sign it off. This is not essential as you can use a signed letter from your base capt detailing your PIC U/S hours when it comes to upgrading your licence.

Cheers

Am in the process of converting my ATPL to a JAA one and I must say this topic does come as a surprise to me. In my mind there is a destinct difference in PF and PIC and PICUS. Surely it's as the name suggests. PF is just simply that Pilot Flying. You're not in command, the Captain is in over all command. I can understand to a certain extent where you're coming from re PICUS but surely if you don't hold an ATPL and indeed a P1 rating on that aircraft then legaly you can't comand the aircraft and therefore you CANNOT log PICUS. You simply don't meet the requirements of command. Even if you do have an ATP and the P1 rating you're still not PICUS as you're not doing command training and not being assesd for command therefore not exactly PIC?

Up until now have been logging all my PF flying as simply Co-pilot.

Like I said, converting to JAA so you guys can clear this up for me as well.
Cheers

Congrats on getting the job BTW Craggs!

Cockpit chx, you said There was a split amongst the Training Captains when I asked specifically about how to log the Line Training hours. Some said do the same as for normal line flying (Co-Pilot and PICUS depending on whose leg it is), some said no it should be logged as training. So I'm none the wiser for those 50 hours!

Ingwe, there are some major philosophical differences between JAA and FAA when it comes to logging hours (I converted FAA PPL/IR to JAA). For example, watch for the definition of PIC. In the US, I logged every hour after getting my PPL as PIC, including IR training. But as far as JAA is concerned, those hours are P2. The only time you can log PIC hours when an instructor is on board (for JAA) is for things like currency checks, new A/C checks, etc. And yes, UK operators (and the CAA) seem happy for us to log PICUS we're PF FO.

One question for everyone: do you really get all your PF sectors signed off by the captain? Would the CAA refuse unfreeze your ATPL if not signed?

Back to my Orange Tractor

P

1. You don't have to have them signed, in fact you can get away with none of them signed if you have a signed letter from your base capt certifying that the hours are correct.

2. If you had neither the hours signed off, or the letter from the base capt, then yes the CAA probably would refuse to unfreeze your ATPL.

Excellent, thanks!

P

According to our company OM part D (JAA but non-UK) one is allowed to log PICUS only when flying with a training captain after specific experience requirements are met. 150 hours of these flights are flown and recorded in a separate syllabus as part of commander course prior to commencing type rating for left seat. Decision making in operational matters is emphasized (tankage, ground handling, de-ice, etc).
All other flights are logged as "Co-pilot".

There is a huge difference here between Aviation Authorites and Airlines form a recruiting point of view.

My advice is... On your CV dont show PIC on any aircraft you havent sat in the left seat of. I have heard of several instances of pilots claiming X000 hours PIC on a type they have never qualified as commander! Some even use it as evidence for DEC applications. Why dont all logbooks have a 'Command Practice' column like some countries (NZ/AUS) so it clears all this confusion up. Perhaps the spare column should be used for this, but PICUS still going in the copilot totals.

It seems daft to me to log Command time on something you arent qualified as. Can all Boeing time be logged as B744?

That's the thing with the UK though, if you didn't get PICUS time on the right seat with fATPL, you wouldn't have the hours to unfreeze your licence if you started your career with the minimum required 150 hours PIC (or whatever it is for Integrated guys).

P

Don't worry! Any UK airline will know what PICUS means.....

Friend of mine with a now defunct 737 operator had 6000 hours as first officer. Whenever it was "his leg" most times the check captain would swop seats and let him operate from the LH seat and fly ICUS. He placed that in the PIC column without any requirement to have the captain sign his log book entry. When the airline went tits up, he got a job in India as an direct entry command on the 737 and has never looked back. The Indian CAA apparently didn't look too closely at his log book as they assumed his ICUS time was real PIC - and who was he to contradict them?

The moral of the story is you should log as many hours ICUS as possible as it could one day get you a captain's job in a third world country.

Sounds rather bizarre and illegal to me. Surely to operate in the 'other' seat (be it right or left), you have to have conducted EFATO drills from that seat in order to be sit there?

I agree topbunk. And I would suggest the individual concerned may be in deep **** when his logbook was analysed after a serious incident or accident. An insurance company could refuse paying on the strength of that alone IMHO.

Craggenmore I agree. But many individuals choose to add this figure into Command totals. And I know many non-UK airlines wont consider this as any more than FO time, because of the dubious rule interpretation by various airlines / authorities.

The ICUS label is daft anyway, because you are no more 'in command' than the pax in 26D, the way the law sees it.