Airbus oldy now a 737 newby………help!
 

So a recent move has seen me jump from decades of bus flying to training up on the 737NG.

We are halfway through our sim training and I have some thoughts I would like to throw out in case any wiser heads would care to contribute.

1. When cleared for any VNAV path approach we set the MCP window to airfield elevation. This slightly complicates the missed approach as the PF must remember to ask for the missed approach altitude to be set once heading uphill like a cut cat! Is this a common procedure amongst 737 operators and is there a reason why we cant set the missed approach altitude once on final (I have not been permitted to try!)

2. I have never before seen takeoff performance catering to windshear including an increased VR speed as we have on the 737. I no longer have access to an Airbus FCOM but once upon a time it said “known or suspected” windshear we must “delay or divert”. And yet we are launching the 737 with known windshear! Am I missing something here? Is the Boeing windshear proof?

3. I realized today that the ND is a track up display and the rose below the PFD is a heading up display. Is this a customer arrangement and can it be changed by the crew? I find it awfully confusing to have different presentations.

Thanks in advance for any musings you may have,

cheers

3. That is pin programmable, so up to customer choice. I flew both on 737s with heading up and track up NDs.

1. To be fair, i flew last on 737s with IAN, in which case any non precision approach (except non-straight in approaches) would be flown with the ILS procedure using the APProach mode. However, we still had a few old aircraft without IAN, for those we did set the MDA in the MCP, and when around 500ft above MDA set it the MCP window to missed approach altitude. The reason given for setting MDA initially was that VNAV path can revert to LVL CHG due to minimum speed reversion with less than flaps 15 selected, which could result in a rapid descent, MDA assured at least not below that. Since my books are fairly old (now on the bus for the last 5 or 6 years), airplane behavior could have been changed since.

1. This is a normal procedures for all aproaches and was common even before VNAV. The logic of VNAV won't let you descent below the MCP altitude (pretty smart), so by setting MDA (not airfield elevation, at least with standard Boeing procedures) in the MCP altitude window, you let VNAV transition to final approach logic and once you are 300ft or more below the platform altitude, you can wind it back up to missed approach altitude, and VNAV will continue descending on final approach.

As Denti points out, IAN exists, but it comes with a hefty price as a customer option and not many airlines take it up.

2. Boeing guidance is the same. If windshear is confirmed, then you should delay takeoff or discontinue the approach (FCOM SP 16 has some good stuff in it). However if windshear is only suspected, you can improve aircraft's performance by rotating at the performance-limited Vr (which can be up to 20kts higher than normal Vr), to give you better performance in case that you actually end up in a windshear.

3. Track up is a customer option, that can be only changed by the airline. Personally, I never look at the compass rose below the PFD, and track up is by far superior for most phases of flying, with the odd exception of transitioning to visual part of the landing with high crosswinds, where the runway on the ND will appear straight ahead rather that left/right.

The company VNAV procedure is to set airfield elevation in the MCP, and only set the go around altitude DURING the go around?? What else does the landing checklist miss out?

The altitude set in the MCP window is temporary, it just needs to be something lower than where you are - most operators pick MDA rounded down. You should never actually reach it. Once you're 300' below missed approach altitude you can reset the missed approach altitude and VNAV will ignore it.

1. We set airfield elevation on the CL rounded down and MAA is set by the PM during GA; on the NG we set the MDA rounded up and when below 300' below MAA we set MAA altitude.
2. No one in their right mind will take off in known windshear conditions. But if you encounter it, you've got some margins.
3. Customer option.

Different ways to skin a cat.

I'd love to see how that works with very low MAAs, such as 1500ft in BCN or 2000ft in the Netherlands.

If you're flying for a certain Seattle-based airline, they're still exorcising 737-200 and -400 artifacts from the manuals.

The MAP technique is antiquated and no longer necessary as the 737CL has been retired.

FlyingStone

Well, it's been like this for decades where I work, so I guess it works.

ImbracableCrunk

You need to use a little care with the term '737 Classic' - not everyone agrees on the definition. Some consider the 'classic' to be the 737-100/200 series. But at least around Boeing, the general definition of '737 Classic' is the 737-3/4/500, while the even older 737-100/200 are referred to as the '737 Jurassic'.

AFAIK a DAL based 737 operator sets 0000 in the window during an ILS, and doesn't set the MAA until after the GA......

re 2) Airbus OEM also comes with a bit of obscure wording, suggesting to use TOGA for take-off with suspect WSHR.

Well there’s windshear and there’s windshear.
Ominous CB is different from a ‘low level windshear advisory’ on the ATIS.
Anytime with gusting wind conditions you have windshear…technically.
20G30 with maybe a little rolling terrain or buildings causing mechanical turbulence.
I don’t remember the details of the 73 as I had to do a data dump for new type and I can only remember one set of everything.
I don’t see a problem with heading and track simultaneously.

Like to know where you are doing your training.
Never , ever , set 0000 in the MCP.
You are setting yourself up for disaster.
On a Vnav approach set minima rounded up. When on final set missed approach alt.
The approach logic will allow you to wind the altitude away without a nuisance AltAquire.
On ILS set minima then the missed approach alt. when G/S engaged.
The trick on the B737 is to avoid unwanted AltAquire.
But never , ever 0000 in the MCP.

A nice «cheat» with the compass rose on the PFD is that you can put the track line on the heading bug when on final, and you will pretty much be bang-on laterally the whole way down, without having to look over at the ND. As for the ND, I personally like track up much better there, but that of course depends entirely on personal preference :)

Oh no it won't. Been there, done that (albeit in a 787, but VNAV behaves like it was programmed in the 1960s so I assume it's the same).

Set altitude increment to thousands, wind fast, then very carefully wind back down.

Yes it does.
I have flown many many RNP approaches
Are you sure you are on the last route segment when you wind the Alt. away?
It works just fine.

Alt Flieger

I don't work there (and fly AB), but as a jumpseater sat in the cockpit many times, and that is their procedure. Have always found it odd.

Funny, with our lot, and I must admit to it myself, we wind it up rapidly with a flick and then down to the MAP, like it won't notice and snag on the way up or something. Comedy gold but it's a naturally cautious thing to do I guess. I can't think of something as stupid for an SOP as to wind MAP on during a high stress situation like a last minute go-around. Asking for trouble. really is.

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....e6fa75c699.png
From our FCOM

This is exactly the same in our Classic (-300/-400/-500) FCOM. The FCCs on the NG/MAX are different and allow the crew to select the MAA 300' below MAA or platform altitude if this is below MAA.

Yep. The missed approach altitude was, I think, 3000ft and we went to set it as we passed through about 2500ft from an MDA of ~540. As the ALT knob clicked through 2500 the aircraft went into VNAV ALT.

Stupid bloody thing. Fortunately the weather was great so we turned off the FDs and continued visually.

Thought the 787 had IAN as standard, which would do away with the need for VNAV on most approaches. Or is it a customer option there as well?

Alt Flieger

Never is a long time. Have you flown RNP in both 737CL and NG?

Checked the old manuals, the company would set

MCP = MDA + 50' + Temp. correction

G/A target was dialled when passing 300 ft above the applicable minima.

ImbracableCrunk

I have flown thousands of hours in both but RNP only in the -800.
But in both our training department would have a fit if you set 00000.
If you are worried about Alt. Acq. select V/S first.
Flightdetent is correct.

You have to set the runway threshold elevation rounded down for a VNAV flown approach on the Classic.

So never say never.

VNAV in a classic.
There’s your problem.
RNP in an -800NG not an issue. They are designed for it.
00000 in the MCP is a bad idea either way.
Certainly not a habit to teach a newbie like the OP.

You don't set MAP in the CL until you are going around [Edit: or 300 above mdah]. That's our point.

Nope.
I have 15,000 hours on Boeings including a type endorsement from Boeing in Seattle and never ever set MAA in the go-round.

I think I agree with you, but the worlds largest 737 operator does just that (and flies 737s about 15.000 hours per day, after flying it for 50 years....)

Funny enough, albeit it's not the latest FCTM, but Boeing would disagree here:

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....5e5e6d3a9f.png

IAN only works for straight-in approaches, so anything else LNAV/VNAV needed.

Banana Joe

You say have to, our old manuals have different choice: MDA/DDA/DA instead.

Yes, for RNP VNAV on the -400. The graphics recently posted shows exactly the same.

What are we missing, I mean, you're the only one actually flying it, right? Where does this must come from?

Yes its an interesting dance that both manufacturers play and most airlines join in. “Windshear bad but just in case, here are some tricks that may help.” I guess during the conversion we are presently conducting my annoyance is with the negative training aspect of the windshear event, too much gung ho and not enough pause……

I am rather agnostic about track up versus heading up and am trying to embrace the concept. Its just the transition that is causing the headache. A careers worth of muscle memory dropping my eyes from the PFD straight down to the track diamond to confirm its sitting on the Localiser dagger but the rose on the 737 does not indicate actual current track! Practice I guess.

This is correct.

That makes sense to me. Even at this early phase of flying the 737 I can see little value in setting the MCP to field elevation, its not offering any protection at all.

Well this is the problem we are having. I have no doubt the missed approach will become more natural with time but at the moment, both myself and my sim buddy are struggling to get all the (uneccesary) calls out PLUS rememebring to ask for the missed approach altitude to be set particularly when all of our go arounds have been to a 2000’ level off along with setting GA thrust manually with an autopilot that kicks off when the TOGA buttons are pressed! Missed approach in this plane is not my favorite past time right now….

Thanks all for the feedback, very interesting discussion from some clearly experienced and thoughtful drivers.

There are some more questions I thought I would throw around.

1. Our procedure is to manually deploy the speedbrake on touchdown despite the fact that its armed. I have been constantly critiqued for not getting to it fast enough and letting it deploy automatically. I dont miss it on purpose, I am just not fast enough yet. However, it appears to deploy very quickly and I am unsure why we need to race our hand down to deploy it manually. Is there a history of auto failure on the speedbrake?

1. Not so much 737 related but more generic a question. Our procedure is to call V1 5 knots early to cater for the “delay in recognition”. I have crossed this bridge before on the Airbus in my previous airline where the same procedure was employed. My issue is two fold. Firstly, they will not pin the automation to auto call V1 because it cant be programmed to call 5 knots early. Second, the V1 calculation is designed to cater for the delay in recognition. I have raised this before on pprune and saw some interesting answers but its one that has me intrigued. Can the Boeing be programmed to auto call out V1?

Cheers all and thanks for taking the time.

FlightDetent

I've done the type rating at an operator, currently flying at another operator and in both places this is the procedure for a VNAV flown approach. I guess both ways work. We actually set MAA 300ft above MDA if the approach is flown with V/S.

But I would not be surprised my operator may like to complicate things. Considering the country they're based in it would make sense:}

FlyingStone

Thanks for posting that. Our company won’t even let us have the FCTM. I stand corrected.

oicur12.again

The V1-5 has always bothered me. And they won’t tell you whether you remove your hand at actual V1 or the V1 call. I see a mix.

Are you serious? You operate without a copy of FCTM?

It's somewhat common for the airline to publish its own version, paraphrased from the manufacturer's, with changes.

The question is, why do we have to wait until so late in the approach(300' above MDA) to set the missed approach altitude when there is increased risk of forgetting as one is getting close to minimums and getting more focused on acquiring visual contact with the runway.