Refuelling with pax on board
Passenger with Ryanair today and after boarding I noticed we were refuelling.
Seat belt signs were off but no announcement was made and doors weren’t (continuously) manned. Is that normal SOPs these days? I’ve often been asked to leave seatbelt unfastened while refuelling previously. |
In our SOP, the captain must inform the CFA that passengers boarding will be done while refueling and asked her to arm door 4L (A320). Cabin crew will make announcement to the passengers.
The cockpit crew will keep the seat belt sign off and inform the maintenance. The maintenance has to be connected with headset on until refueling is completed. |
The rules vary from company to company. Last company, a pilot had to be on board. Current company has no such restriction.
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Interesting, thanks. I’m surprised it’s down to company policy rather than FAA/EASA.
Pineteam, your company’s SOP is what is was expecting. |
Originally Posted by Check Airman
(Post 10671806)
The rules vary from company to company. Last company, a pilot had to be on board. Current company has no such restriction.
R Guy I seem to remember it came in when a refueller was cremated and plane endangered when the fuel pipe leaked and fire started and nobody noticed. |
Originally Posted by retired guy
(Post 10671860)
In Europe it’s an EASA rule. If anyone here knows of an EU airline that permits refuelling without a pilot being on the flight deck in communication with a “refuelling supervisor” by intercom I would be glad to hear of it. An airline near me is trying to comply with that one! It’s not easy.
R Guy I seem to remember it came in when a refueller was cremated and plane endangered when the fuel pipe leaked and fire started and nobody noticed. Staff duties and responsibilitiesAbsolute authority for the decision to refuel with passengers on board must reside with the aircraft commander. They should ensure that either they or their explicitly designated representative remains on the flight deck throughout the time when refuelling with passengers on board is occurring. Teamwork is essential for normal safety standards to be maintained during such refuelling and there are a number of things that the personnel involved should be doing to achieve this:
https://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/...sponsibilities |
Interesting. I’d think that a pilot’s time would be better spent in the cockpit than watching the fuelling process though.
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It is. Overseeing refuelling on a loco turnaround is often simply impossible and imo completely pointless.
Not the 'rules' above are not in fact rules at all, but guidelines. The Aircraft Commander, should....where possible The ground engineer (or the equivalent supervisor of refuelling externally) should: Should, not must. Where possible... Thus these itams are advisory, not mandatory but it is clear that one would have questions to answer in the event of an unnoticed spillage or a fire if they were not complied with. In my recent loco it was assumed that the despatcher was responsible for this duty as it was impossible for turnarounds to be achieved if flight deck wasted their time on it. |
At my (US) airline, the only rule is that the main door must be open.
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Refueling with pax on Board
Cafesolo
When I started flying training in the RAF,in1953,the rule was simple: NO pax on board during refueling. Up to leaving in 1979 I did not hear of this rule being changed,other than for bed-bound casevacs,when the decision would be taken jointly with the senior medic and the captain. |
My EU LCC airline requires a pilot to be in the RHS to be able to have visual contact with the fueler. Various CAA bodies have a habit of waving at you from under the Rh window to see if you notice.
We also have a big red page on the QRH which says “refueling in progress” to be displayed on the center pedestal. |
Originally Posted by cafesolo
(Post 10672145)
Cafesolo
When I started flying training in the RAF,in1953,the rule was simple: NO pax on board during refueling. Up to leaving in 1979 I did not hear of this rule being changed,other than for bed-bound casevacs,when the decision would be taken jointly with the senior medic and the captain. Our SOPs are very rigid with regard to the likes of chain of command, cabin crew location and doors, jetties, stairs etc during refuelling but there is no requirement for one of the flight crew to directly supervise the operation. |
Also, you have to look at the level of risk. Is pumping kerosene onto an aircraft incredibly dangerous, compared to much of what goes on in aviation? The worst I’ve heard of is a fuel spillage that required disembarkation and cleanup. We did have an accident a long time ago where the refueller was killed but that was because they mis-attached the hose on an aircraft that had just arrived on stand: the fuel misted out onto the engine which had been shut down less than a minute before and made a mini fireball. I don’t think the doors had even been opened to let the pax off...
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Taken from "Consoldiated AMC & GM to Annex IV(Part-CAT)CAT.OP.MPA - AMC1 CAT.OP.MPA.195 Refuelling/defuelling with passengers embarking, on board or disembarking":
OPERATIONAL PROCEDURES —GENERAL (a) When refuelling/defuelling with passengers on board, ground servicing activities and work inside the aircraft, such as catering and cleaning, should be conducted in such a manner that they do not create a hazard and allow emergency evacuation to take place through those aisles and exits intended for emergency evacuation. (b) The deployment of integral aircraft stairs or the opening of emergency exits as a prerequisite to refuelling is not necessarily required. OPERATIONAL PROCEDURES —AEROPLANES (c) Operational procedures should specify that at least the following precautions are taken:
Does not rseem to require cabin crew to be manning doors, and any announcement during this time would be made during boarding PA afaik |
In my European legacy airline, there does not have to be a pilot on the flightdeck while fueling.
However, there must be contact between the purser and fueler via portophone. In (rare) cases the plane is being fueled and boarded without cockpit crew onboard (but with that mentioned portophone contact). |
Originally Posted by cafesolo
(Post 10672145)
Cafesolo
When I started flying training in the RAF,in1953,the rule was simple: NO pax on board during refueling. Up to leaving in 1979 I did not hear of this rule being changed,other than for bed-bound casevacs,when the decision would be taken jointly with the senior medic and the captain. These days, turbine powered helicopters are even allowed to carry out rotors running refuels, subject to suitable precautions being taken. ;) |
Originally Posted by ShyTorque
(Post 10673605)
These days, turbine powered helicopters are even allowed to carry out rotors running refuels, subject to suitable precautions being taken. ;)
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Originally Posted by Skyjob
(Post 10672974)
Taken from "Consoldiated AMC & GM to Annex IV(Part-CAT)CAT.OP.MPA - AMC1 CAT.OP.MPA.195 Refuelling/defuelling with passengers embarking, on board or disembarking":
OPERATIONAL PROCEDURES —GENERAL (a) When refuelling/defuelling with passengers on board, ground servicing activities and work inside the aircraft, such as catering and cleaning, should be conducted in such a manner that they do not create a hazard and allow emergency evacuation to take place through those aisles and exits intended for emergency evacuation. (b) The deployment of integral aircraft stairs or the opening of emergency exits as a prerequisite to refuelling is not necessarily required. OPERATIONAL PROCEDURES —AEROPLANES (c) Operational procedures should specify that at least the following precautions are taken:
Does not rseem to require cabin crew to be manning doors, and any announcement during this time would be made during boarding PA afaik Hi Skyjob At an airline not far from you this requires a pilot to leave the flight deck to become the "qualified supervisor". There being nobody else on the ground except the guys loading baggage and the refueller himself. That pilot must plug in and communicate with the other pilot on the flight deck by inter phone. Or perhaps agreed visual hand signals. The word "should" as written in the AMC EASA approved document is regarded as "will" since in an accident nobody is going to buy that the word "should" is a reasonable cause for non compliance. As in "should remain at a specified location during fuelling operations with passengers on board" Certainly the Court would not do so when awarding 500 million in damages. So I am asking guys who fly with "other airlines" that seem to not need to comply with the above - how do you do it? By the way I fully agree that this is utter nonsense - but here we are! Best wishes R Guy |
Originally Posted by retired guy
(Post 10676282)
Hi Skyjob
At an airline not far from you this requires a pilot to leave the flight deck to become the "qualified supervisor". There being nobody else on the ground except the guys loading baggage and the refueller himself. That pilot must plug in and communicate with the other pilot on the flight deck by inter phone. Or perhaps agreed visual hand signals. The word "should" as written in the AMC EASA approved document is regarded as "will" since in an accident nobody is going to buy that the word "should" is a reasonable cause for non compliance. As in "should remain at a specified location during fuelling operations with passengers on board" Certainly the Court would not do so when awarding 500 million in damages. So I am asking guys who fly with "other airlines" that seem to not need to comply with the above - how do you do it? By the way I fully agree that this is utter nonsense - but here we are! Best wishes R Guy Like I already posted, we let the fueler communicate directly with the senior purser, which has the qualifications mentioned in those rules you post. He/she is at a specified place (door 12) and is able to start an evacuation is required. |
Originally Posted by retired guy
(Post 10676282)
Hi Skyjob
At an airline not far from you this requires a pilot to leave the flight deck to become the "qualified supervisor". There being nobody else on the ground except the guys loading baggage and the refueller himself. That pilot must plug in and communicate with the other pilot on the flight deck by inter phone. Or perhaps agreed visual hand signals. The word "should" as written in the AMC EASA approved document is regarded as "will" since in an accident nobody is going to buy that the word "should" is a reasonable cause for non compliance. As in "should remain at a specified location during fuelling operations with passengers on board" Certainly the Court would not do so when awarding 500 million in damages. So I am asking guys who fly with "other airlines" that seem to not need to comply with the above - how do you do it? By the way I fully agree that this is utter nonsense - but here we are! Best wishes R Guy OP asked specifically for SOP in Ryanair and to that extent the answer clearly must be a yes, there is such a SOP in place. Asking 189 people during boarding to leave seatbelt unfastened at the door when they enter will result in a majority not complying. In theory passengers are required to follow CC instructions, which may include occasional announcements during boarding & fueling in progress to leave seatbelt unfastened. Granted, some dialects make it impossible t understand what is being said over the PA system, but equally the belts illumination is a reminder the passengers there is no requirement to have their belts fastened. Each airline operates differently, each airline has their own SOP, each airline follows the rules as I copied them for reference |
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