A320 Manual Landing Technique
Hello, Just finish my A320 type rating and base training, Any advices about the A320 landing techniques, especially the flare, and the effect of weight and wind. still confuse how I should deal with it on A320 .. Regards |
What have your trainers suggested? What about your landings during base training? On what do you feel weak? Honestly I find more difficult to land a very light plane, this because I got used to high payloads which are the norm, when I flew almost empty planes I ended up floating. The advices I was given during my training were to start looking more outside than inside at around 500’ latest, at 50’ positively move my sight towards half - 3/4 runway and feel the closure rate. What I was warned from day one, was never do a two stage flare, like a small input at 50’ and the flare at 30’, by doing this you could waste some runway. Regarding thrust normally it should be closed very close to the beginning of the flare, but this changes due to environment/weight. Landings are something you develop by doing many times, don’t overthink too much and enjoy. Congrats for starting Airbus. PS be careful on the seating position and try to stick to FCTM guidance |
I see a lot of pilots flare early (50'), that almost always leads to an increase in thrust (AT is in Speed mode). Eats up runway fast. If the AT is on, reduce TLA to stop/limit power increase around 40', start to flare around 30', and don't prolong the flare, but work it into a touchdown as soon as you can. I sometimes get a great landing, but (almost) never land long.
Also (company procedure permitting), if you use full reverse, don't go from full reverse to forward idle as the engines will still be spooled up, wait at idle reverse until spooled down before closing the buckets (or sleeve...). Good luck! |
.....and then there’s the gusty crosswinds, you know, blowing 20 with gusts to 30 knots. Worst airplane I ever flew in those conditions since the Beech 18. Back when I flew it, Airbus insisted that the ailerons were in normal law until touchdown. Turns out that wasn’t completely true. How to handle the little beast in conditions such as above is a topic worthy of discussion. |
Originally Posted by Commander Taco
(Post 10570730)
.....and then there’s the gusty crosswinds, you know, blowing 20 with gusts to 30 knots. Worst airplane I ever flew in those conditions since the Beech 18. Back when I flew it, Airbus insisted that the ailerons were in normal law until touchdown. Turns out that wasn’t completely true. How to handle the little beast in conditions such as above is a topic worthy of discussion. FWIW: In an Airbus the AP is always on, and the sidestick controls it just like the 4 buttons on the FCU. Don't correct for gusts, wait for "it" to correct "itself" while on the approach. The less you touch the sidestick the better. Don't fly till you flare. My opinion. |
Originally Posted by Commander Taco
(Post 10570730)
.....and then there’s the gusty crosswinds, you know, blowing 20 with gusts to 30 knots. Worst airplane I ever flew in those conditions since the Beech 18. Back when I flew it, Airbus insisted that the ailerons were in normal law until touchdown. Turns out that wasn’t completely true. How to handle the little beast in conditions such as above is a topic worthy of discussion. |
Originally Posted by Commander Taco
(Post 10570730)
.....and then there’s the gusty crosswinds, you know, blowing 20 with gusts to 30 knots. Worst airplane I ever flew in those conditions since the Beech 18. Back when I flew it, Airbus insisted that the ailerons were in normal law until touchdown. Turns out that wasn’t completely true. How to handle the little beast in conditions such as above is a topic worthy of discussion. |
This has always worked well for me, which is what I was taught on day 1:
Be stabilised flying towards the aim point/following the GP 100' - look far ahead at the very far end of the runway (most important, to be able to judge the sink rate during the flare) (if I make a bad landing, it's often because I don't do this and so I often have to remind myself to do this) Maintain attitude. After the 30' call - thrust levers idle (also rudder now if crosswind). After the 20' call - flare (very important - don't flare too early. Not until after the 20' call otherwise you will land long or firm) Flare - just a small back pressure input to raise the noise maybe 2 degrees. Flare by looking at the far end of the runway, and just judge your sink rate as normal (looking at changing runway perspective and the runway edge lines/runway edge lights) to minimise sink and touchdown in the zone. I hope this helps. |
Originally Posted by John Citizen
(Post 10571220)
This has always worked well for me, which is what I was taught on day 1:
Be stabilised flying towards the aim point/following the GP 100' - look far ahead at the very far end of the runway (most important, to be able to judge the sink rate during the flare) (if I make a bad landing, it's often because I don't do this and so I often have to remind myself to do this) Maintain attitude. After the 30' call - thrust levers idle (also rudder now if crosswind). After the 20' call - flare (very important - don't flare too early. Not until after the 20' call otherwise you will land long or firm) Flare - just a small back pressure input to raise the noise maybe 2 degrees. Flare by looking at the far end of the runway, and just judge your sink rate as normal (looking at changing runway perspective and the runway edge lines/runway edge lights) to minimise sink and touchdown in the zone. I hope this helps. ditto, you’ll grease it, just make sure you pull the side stick gently and and very little, it is just a touch. At 5 callout just keep pulling progressively but only at 5. in gusty, unstable conditions reduce thrust at 20 and at 10 flare the same way. cheers |
In an Airbus the AP is always on, and the sidestick controls it just like the 4 buttons on the FCU What is the purpose of the red button on the sidestick? Why do I have to make continuous corrections to fly an accurate flightpath/ILS compared to doing nothing if the AP button is selected on or not ? I bet you are the one of these people that also says that you can't handfly an Airbus. But then what is the purpose of holding and moving the sidestick with your hand ? |
Sure you handfly an Airbus, but it is different to handflying a conventional aircraft. An Airbus FBW is making control inputs at the same time as you. I enjoy the Airbus but I feel disconnected from the air. To those recommending certain actions in response to radalt call outs, don’t become too reliant on them, sometimes they don’t work. |
Don't get hung up on exactly when to flare and how much, it will vary depending on weight, wind, runway slope etc. Just LOOK OUTSIDE and adjust your closure rate based on what you see, it will be different for every single approach. If you start getting hung up on a cue to flare like the rad alt etc then you're more likely to just smash it in. We've all been there!
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Originally Posted by byrondaf
(Post 10571970)
Don't get hung up on exactly when to flare and how much, it will vary depending on weight, wind, runway slope etc. Just LOOK OUTSIDE and adjust your closure rate based on what you see, it will be different for every single approach. If you start getting hung up on a cue to flare like the rad alt etc then you're more likely to just smash it in. We've all been there!
in gusty, unstable conditions reduce thrust at 20 and at 10 flare the same way. The problem with asking for tips on somewhere like here is everyone from every different airline with completely different opinions and training/career backgrounds will give you their 2 cents. Some cut their teeth on fast jets, some have only flown an Airbus so everyones experience and method will be different. This is not what you want. You will end up taking the "flare at 10ft when it's gusty" thing and then add the "after 20ft flare" thing together and end up breaking something on a 1% upslope on a slightly steeper than normal approach as you're trying to fly the numbers. Landing isn't IFR flying, it's visual flying. Instead, listen to your instructors and just keep going back to your companies landing technique and repeat it. As you get more experienced, you'll realise where you can and need to tweak it. Quality of landings in early stages is always going to look like a damped sine wave. You'll slam it in every so often, then go back to floaty ones. One will float a lot so the next time you slam it in. The peaks and troughs WILL get less and less and you'll crack it (metaphorically). To go against all of my advice briefly, i will say the only 'number' I do pay attention to is the landing weight when the FO is flying. The A320 sidesticks aren't linked so you cant feel when they're beginning to flare. If I see a high landing weight, i should reasonably expect them to flare sooner rather than later - and vice versa. It just gives me a bit of a clue as to when we're likely to float or perhaps land hard/bounce etc. |
Instead, listen to your instructors and just keep going back to your companies landing technique and repeat it To those recommending certain actions in response to radalt call outs, don’t become too reliant on them, sometimes they don’t work Don't get hung up on exactly when to flare and how much, it will vary depending on weight, wind, runway slope etc. Just LOOK OUTSIDE and adjust your closure rate based on what you see, it will be different for every single approach |
John, your technique sounds adequate. Except instead of 30' to apply decrab rudder, I like to suggest below 5' is more aligned with the FCTM.
Btw that 5 feet RA call gets omitted about 2x a week here and I have no idea why, which caught me red-handed more times than I could remember. Even when looking towards the far runway end, which apparently I am not very good at, that missing "5" sends a mental shockwave through the unconscious, throwing the rest off balance. Typically over a 60 wide piece on a 3 a.m. rainy arrival. ---- To the original poster: are you here? |
Originally Posted by John Citizen
(Post 10571780)
Then what is the purpose of the 2 buttons on the FCU labelled AP1 and AP2 ?
What is the purpose of the red button on the sidestick? Why do I have to make continuous corrections to fly an accurate flightpath/ILS compared to doing nothing if the AP button is selected on or not ? I bet you are the one of these people that also says that you can't handfly an Airbus. But then what is the purpose of holding and moving the sidestick with your hand ? Buddy, you are barking up the wrong tree. Obviously you have experience, I was trying to explain to a new Airbus pilot how it's different from a conventional aircraft. I hand fly AT/AP/FD off a lot. It is not a conventional aircraft, and correcting for disturbances will very often lead to overcorrection because, unlike a conventional aircraft, an Airbus will try to correct for disturbances with the autopilot off. Hence my suggestion to limit control input. Off course you will have to make corrections if you get off the loc/GS, but don't stir the pot.... |
Funny how the “AP is always on” argument only seems to be made for Airbus airplanes. From what I’ve read, the 777 doesn’t have any cables either... |
John, your technique sounds adequate. Except instead of 30' to apply decrab rudder, I like to suggest below 5' is more aligned with the FCTM. Btw that 5 feet RA call gets omitted about 2x a week here and I have no idea why At 30 ft RA, the AP/FD aligns the yaw axis with the runway centerline and the aircraft flares on the pitch axis BTW, the Airbus I fly only have rad alt calls at 50, 40, 30 and 20, We don't get 10 or 5. |
what they teach us on simulator, follow the FDs or keep the rate (usually 700-750) until threshold at 50 break the rate (around 400-350) by pull the side stick and release it at 30 THR Idle, meanwhile start the flare, by pull the side stick and keep it once the mean wheels touch ground, REV Idle however this method work for simulator and for some flights only. Now I try to respect the FCTM but i struggle to find a way to flare in right time with wise rate |
Originally Posted by John Citizen
(Post 10572540)
BTW, the Airbus I fly only have rad alt calls at 50, 40, 30 and 20, We don't get 10 or 5.
Well, different configurations I guess. The 10 is usually active for autoland with us. |
Originally Posted by John Citizen
(Post 10572540)
Yes, I agree that 30' is a bit early to decrab, and after 20' or latter is maybe better, however it is interesting to note that in the FCOM, under autoland, FCOM DSC-22_30-80-30-10 it says:
I always thought if this is how the automation does it, then maybe I should also fly it the same way. BTW, the Airbus I fly only have rad alt calls at 50, 40, 30 and 20, We don't get 10 or 5. |
From memory, The 10 and 5 RA call out will come when there is no significant change of altitude for few seconds. Basically when you float. I even heard the « 5 » twice in a row during a very long flare xD. |
Check Your MSN(s) FCOM chapter 31 to see which calls are installed. Most likely You do have 10 and 5 but in manual landing the “RETARD” call will have priority and by the time it stops You will be on the ground |
It is a pin-programmed option, no sweat.
Speaking of a manual landing technique again: One which has RETARD overlap the "5" RA on a regular basis is not a good example to follow. BTW I was wondering the other day, why would not the RETARD shut up. Is it tied to N1 instead of TL or what? |
Flare and Landing is the only seat of the pant skill left. 30ft and 20ft call in the beginning is a good help to initiate flare but after that one has to land by visual judgment. Yo can't be landing by 10ft and 5ft calls. Initial flare should reduce the rate of descent sufficiently to get out of hard landing and bring thrust to idle but continue to the touch down point and slightly before touchdown a little more reduction is all that is required. Between 30 and 20 feet a/c should be decrabbed.
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Originally Posted by FlightDetent
(Post 10572712)
Speaking of a manual landing technique again: One which has RETARD overlap the "5" RA on a regular basis is not a good example to follow.
From FCTM : At 20 ft, the "RETARD" auto call-out reminds the pilot to retard thrust levers. It is a reminder rather than an order. When best adapted, the pilot will rapidly retard all thrust levers: depending on the conditions, the pilot will retard earlier or later. However, the pilot must ensure that all thrust levers are at IDLE detent at the latest at touchdown, to ensure ground spoilers extension at touchdown. |
Originally Posted by John Citizen
(Post 10571220)
This has always worked well for me, which is what I was taught on day 1:
Be stabilised flying towards the aim point/following the GP 100' - look far ahead at the very far end of the runway (most important, to be able to judge the sink rate during the flare) (if I make a bad landing, it's often because I don't do this and so I often have to remind myself to do this) Maintain attitude. After the 30' call - thrust levers idle (also rudder now if crosswind). After the 20' call - flare (very important - don't flare too early. Not until after the 20' call otherwise you will land long or firm) Flare - just a small back pressure input to raise the noise maybe 2 degrees. Flare by looking at the far end of the runway, and just judge your sink rate as normal (looking at changing runway perspective and the runway edge lines/runway edge lights) to minimise sink and touchdown in the zone. I hope this helps. hans brinker is spot on with Airbus FBW. The FCOM does show the feedback from the aircraft via accelerometers to the FBW, but it is quite subtle and not really explained. Not many trainers seem to know how the FBW interacts with the pilot, or how to operate the side-stick; hence you get unhelpful comments such as “it’s fighting me, hold the stick only at the top, only at the bottom, don’t touch it” etc. Hold the stick normally, like a pistol, and make sure your arm rest is fully supporting your forearm. |
Originally Posted by Check Airman
(Post 10572527)
Funny how the “AP is always on” argument only seems to be made for Airbus airplanes. From what I’ve read, the 777 doesn’t have any cables either... An Airbus in direct law is still FBW but the AP isn't on anymore. MCAS on a 737 is AP on without FBW. |
Originally Posted by hans brinker
(Post 10573370)
Mostly because FBW and AP always on don't mean the same thing.
An Airbus in direct law is still FBW but the AP isn't on anymore. MCAS on a 737 is AP on without FBW. I don't mind though. The non-airbus pilots at my company are quite skeptical of the sidestick, and as most of them are senior to me, I've no intention of changing their minds. :cool: |
Over 15 years on the A320.
Magenta Speed target is not always VAPP. You will only finesse this when you really understand what you are seeing. A useful observation is the speed above VLS, as it gives your true energy. More than 5 knots means extra.energy. A last look at 50 feet determines two things, 1. Thrust reduction height. 2. Rate of flare. If you are 10 knots above VAPP of say 135 knots you are adding about 15% V squared energy. (145 x 145)/(135 x 135) You are flaring in AOA demand law. (Not load factor demand) The time you have this occurring is when the Wind entry on VAPP page has a low headwind, and the actual headwind is significantly high. (Drives up Ground speed mini and speed target) This detail is somewhat missing in FCTM. I call it the 5 foot float, and its a predictable event. If you do a normal 'muscle memory' technique flare with the extra speed (whilst bang on Magenta Speed Target) the float is assured. (Leads into the tail strike). If you are landing on a short runway, This extra speed can lead to problems with inexperience if you have these conditions, and having a higher FMGC headwind entry can bring down the Magenta speed target. Maybe I fly into some airports where this happens a lot in summer, but its useful to understand. The FCOM states 'Insert the Average wind given by ATC on ATIS' If the Wind is 150/10-20 knots, the average is 15. (Some read this as Gusting 20 and only put in 10.) The second example in the FCOM is 150/20G30 (Insert 150/20) I almost always find there is a gap between thrust reduction and initiation of the flare. Happy Landings. |
If I get an increase in speed below 100', can anyone recommend what I do? When do I retard the power? What about the effect of wind and weight? Should I still wait to the 30' call, 20' call, etc, etc? When do I zero out the rudder in a crosswind? Or should I be adding rudder in a crosswind? If I'm adding rudder should I be doing anything with the wings? What about the power?
If I'm slightly high on glide slope what's the recommendation? Accept the deviation? Or adjust my pitch attitude to correct for the slight deviation? What about my power reduction now? Delay it? Do it sooner? Isn't my speed trend going to increase if I decrease my pitch slightly? Won't my sink rate increase? Which of those variables should I focus on first? Second? Or is it some sort of dynamic event that takes training, experience, knowledge, awareness, and ability to deal with??? Does anyone know if the industry has a training program, instructors, and line training pilots to help? |
Originally Posted by misd-agin
(Post 10574521)
Does anyone know if the industry has a training program, instructors, and line training pilots to help?
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Do what best suits you. Just make sure to go around if you listen the RA “five five five five”.
What John says works really good for me. I came to the A 320 after the 76 and I had a hard time finding the height to flare. Most important in the 76 I first flared and then reduced thrust, here I do it opposite and works good. in the end, a smooth landing is just a very small part of the whole flight. |
You can also see how the plane auto lands, most planes do it beautifully. The A320 at 30 ‘ (autoland) will retard the thrust and at 10 ‘ will flare. It has no eyes to land visually or feel the rate of descent. Anywho, don’t listen to me. |
Originally Posted by misd-agin
(Post 10574521)
If I get an increase in speed below 100', can anyone recommend what I do? When do I retard the power? What about the effect of wind and weight? Should I still wait to the 30' call, 20' call, etc, etc? When do I zero out the rudder in a crosswind? Or should I be adding rudder in a crosswind? If I'm adding rudder should I be doing anything with the wings? What about the power?
If I'm slightly high on glide slope what's the recommendation? Accept the deviation? Or adjust my pitch attitude to correct for the slight deviation? What about my power reduction now? Delay it? Do it sooner? Isn't my speed trend going to increase if I decrease my pitch slightly? Won't my sink rate increase? Which of those variables should I focus on first? Second? Or is it some sort of dynamic event that takes training, experience, knowledge, awareness, and ability to deal with??? Does anyone know if the industry has a training program, instructors, and line training pilots to help? These aeroplanes are reasonably easy to fly with a little experience - won’t take you more than a few months to be confident and proficient. Generally by 100’ you should be flying a visual aimpoint - don’t get too hung up on the GS. Fly the aeroplane to your aiming point and develop an awareness of your energy state. Experience will define for you how much to adjust flare height and rate. Don’t try and grease it on - that’s not important. Good luck and have fun. |
If you are landing on a short runway, This extra speed can lead to problems with inexperience if you have these conditions, and having a higher FMGC headwind entry can bring down the Magenta speed target. |
misd-agin, I think some people have missed the sarcasm in your post.
Originally Posted by virustalon
You can also see how the plane auto lands, most planes do it beautifully. The A320 at 30 ‘ (autoland) will retard the thrust and at 10 ‘ will flare. It has no eyes to land visually or feel the rate of descent.
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Aerocat - agreed. I think my professional MEL planes flown is 21, including 12 jets. I find it interesting that people come to a website to ask questions that a training department probably has experience with and you can get the 1:1 feedback to multiple questions.
As far as autolands, when people ask about the difference between Boeing and Airbus products I mention the difference in autolands - Boeing, 3 A/P's and lands cross-controlled. Airbus - 2 A/P's and lands in a crab. |
Originally Posted by misd-agin
(Post 10575289)
Aerocat - agreed. I think my professional MEL planes flown is 21, including 12 jets. I find it interesting that people come to a website to ask questions that a training department probably has experience with and you can get the 1:1 feedback to multiple questions.
As far as autolands, when people ask about the difference between Boeing and Airbus products I mention the difference in autolands - Boeing, 3 A/P's and lands cross-controlled. Airbus - 2 A/P's and lands in a crab. I must admit the only time I tried an autoland on a Fail-Op 737 I was impressed as it de-crabbed and held itself nicely. A Fail Passive one just dumps it on sideways.... |
Originally Posted by misd-agin
(Post 10575289)
Airbus - 2 A/P's and lands in a crab.
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