A320neo Rotation
Anyone noticed a tendency to over-rotate on the A320 NEO? Kind of as if the aircraft were tail-heavy and incorrectly pitch-trimmed. I’ve noticed several pilots applying a sidestick deflection similar to that of the A320 CEO but resulting in a much higher rotation rate. Apparently Airbus has modified the FBW rotation law because of engine related issues and flap/slat angles, but I have no particular details about what they’ve done to the rotation law. Thanks for any feedback! Have a good week. |
Originally Posted by rbhojwani
(Post 10240814)
Anyone noticed a tendency to over-rotate on the A320 NEO? Kind of as if the aircraft were tail-heavy and incorrectly pitch-trimmed. I’ve noticed several pilots applying a sidestick deflection similar to that of the A320 CEO but resulting in a much higher rotation rate. Apparently Airbus has modified the FBW rotation law because of engine related issues and flap/slat angles, but I have no particular details about what they’ve done to the rotation law. Thanks for any feedback! Have a good week. |
Not so hard on the joystick, Harry...
You might enjoy this accident report about a tail strike on an Australian A320 on a cadet's first time as PF for the takeoff:
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Thanks bright teeth...
Love it when they do little whoopsies in reports! First quote from the FCTM in the rotation technique section Initiate the rotation with a smooth positive backward sidestick input (typically 1/3 to 1/2 backstick). Avoid aggressive and sharp inputs. The initial rotation rate is about 3 deg/sec. If the established pitch rate is not satisfactory, the pilot must make smooth corrections on the stick. He must avoid rapid and large corrections, which cause sharp reaction in pitch from the aircraft. During rotation, the cadet pilot applied a larger than normal pitch input (3/4 backstick versus the recommended 1/2 to 2/3 of backstick travel) resulting in an excessive pitch rate during rotation (9 deg/sec versus a target of 3 deg/sec) |
Can any of you who fly the A320/321 NEO and also fly the CEO confirm how many line training ( LT) sectors, if any, you received when converting onto the NEO. There is currently a push not to provide any LT and just rely on a half day class room and a home study CBT to cover the differences. |
Absolutely none apart from a self study module (that wasn’t mandatory) |
I prefer the slightly sportier and more crisp initial pitch characteristics on the NEO vs the CEO. The initial nose attitude is also higher as the Leap version fitted to my company's fleet develop more thrust than the CFM56 version. |
Been flying the CEO and Neo regularly and the neo has a tendency to go to high pitch .. need a councious mind not to pull back....just ease the pressure passing 10 degrees and it settles at 15.
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Reason
Originally Posted by Fursty Ferret
(Post 10240908)
Unlike the current A320, the sidestick commands pitch rate on the neo during rotation. So if you're used to adding that extra "pull" through the dead spot at about 10 degrees you'll command a high rate. The rotation is muscle memory so it takes a conscious effort to set a pitch rate and stick to it.
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you have a 68" turbine vs an 81" turbine, and you dont expect differences?
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Originally Posted by underfire
(Post 10244447)
you have a 68" turbine vs an 81" turbine, and you dont expect differences?
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Unlike the current A320, the sidestick commands pitch rate on the neo during rotation. |
They added pitch damping for tail-strike control to take-off only, perhaps because Vnmu is only 80 kts.
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Originally Posted by vilas
(Post 10244668)
That means during take off run the aircraft at least the pitch is normal law and not in direct law. Does this happen at particular speed? Any Airbus referrence on this?
It's actually quite a complex blend of multiple different flight control algorithms which vary depending on phase of flight and speed (ie, Airbus will tell you that sidestick demands load factor in flight, but that's only true at high speeds. Below that it's actually direct elevator deflection with a load factor feedback loop, and below that it's AoA directly). Can't tell you any more about the new rotation law as I now fly the Airbus wannabe, also known as the 787, and no longer have access to the neo FCOM. |
Originally Posted by vilas
(Post 10244668)
That means during take off run the aircraft at least the pitch is normal law and not in direct law. Does this happen at particular speed? Any Airbus referrence on this?
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Laws and modes! More appropriately ground mode of normal law, much like direct law. Not a gee command.
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We had some problems with over rotation in my current company when we started to use mix fleet.Our flight data and analysis group sent some numbers of letters regarding over rotation during take off on the NEO planes particularly with maximum TOW and high OAT. Some times later our flight department sent a letter with recommendations to carry out all take offs on the NEO fleet with F-2 only! Since EFB calculations offers F-2/3 only Safe flights |
What is interesting is how different an A320ceo with sharklets is in comparison to an A320neo in the flare. The ceo is very twitchy but the neo is probably less responsive than a A320 with the original tip fences. I can only imagine the differences are down to software |
Rotation mode
We’re just seeing some more detail from Toulouse on Rotation mode in the neo; it’s active upto 3/4 back stick and damps pitch commands and deck angles. Slightly new Airbus philosophy in that it can be overridden with aggressive Sidestick... looking forward to reading more...
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the flare on the 321 NEO feels mushy causing a prolonged flare but i cant find anything on the books.
maybe thats why they keep quiet with boeing related matters. |
Originally Posted by MD83FO
(Post 10483142)
the flare on the 321 NEO feels mushy causing a prolonged flare but i cant find anything on the books.
maybe thats why they keep quiet with boeing related matters. |
Originally Posted by vilas
(Post 10483446)
It's not neo but all sharklet aircraft are slippery in flare because of drag reduction. Because of that SAFETY FIRST states that for GS mini only 1/3 of ∆ wind is used unlike non sharklets aircraft which use full ∆wind.
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Sonic check this one
https://safetyfirst.airbus.com/contr...h-and-landing/ |
Originally Posted by vilas
(Post 10483524)
Sonic check this one
https://safetyfirst.airbus.com/contr...h-and-landing/ As an aside, I like the way they put it. "Stronger deceleration capability". Is that the PC way of saying underpowered? :O |
Originally Posted by Check Airman
(Post 10483531)
That article doesn't mention sharklets, or did I miss something? Always more to know about this plane.
As an aside, I like the way they put it. "Stronger deceleration capability". Is that the PC way of saying underpowered? :O |
Originally Posted by Check Airman
(Post 10483531)
That article doesn't mention sharklets, or did I miss something? Always more to know about this plane.
As an aside, I like the way they put it. "Stronger deceleration capability". Is that the PC way of saying underpowered? :O |
Originally Posted by vilas
(Post 10483524)
Sonic check this one
https://safetyfirst.airbus.com/contr...h-and-landing/ thanks, that's the one I was referring to. The k factor of .33 is applicable to the NEO but I can't see any reference to the CEOs with sharklets... unless I am missing something ? Cheers. |
Originally Posted by sonicbum
(Post 10484090)
Hi vilas,
thanks, that's the one I was referring to. The k factor of .33 is applicable to the NEO but I can't see any reference to the CEOs with sharklets... unless I am missing something ? Cheers. |
Originally Posted by vilas
(Post 10484125)
I misread it. It says Neo. But the effect is due to sharklets. As PT says higher fan diameter should offer more drag.
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Airbus usually do not make that kind of mistakes in official documents. Writing NEO but meaning Sharklets, missing the hint there are probably more CEOs with sharklets than NEOs produced altogether.
Though I do agree with the sentiments above, I think we should not settle for a "typo" type explanation. |
Originally Posted by FlightDetent
(Post 10484185)
Airbus usually do not make that kind of mistakes in official documents. Writing NEO but meaning Sharklets, missing the hint there are probably more CEOs with sharklets than NEOs produced altogether.
Though I do agree with the sentiments above, I think we should not settle for a "typo" type explanation. |
Originally Posted by FlightDetent
(Post 10484185)
Airbus usually do not make that kind of mistakes in official documents. Writing NEO but meaning Sharklets, missing the hint there are probably more CEOs with sharklets than NEOs produced altogether.
Though I do agree with the sentiments above, I think we should not settle for a "typo" type explanation. |
It is in the article, understanding it becomes the hard part. With 6 landings on NEO combined, I am not qualified to draw opinions.
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Originally Posted by sonicbum
(Post 10484242)
Very true indeed. We do not operate NEOs but we do operate lots of sharklets CEOs and the related MSN FCOM has the same GS mini logic as the winglets ones. I guess it’s time to give our technical pilot a bit of work �� |
Regarding the original posters question.
On the NEO, I don't notice any difference in the initial pitch up from the runway. However, approaching the initial climb pitch attitude, the required pull back on the stick is much less. This gives a tendency to overpitch if you don't anticipate it. Not really noticed any difference on landing. |
Originally Posted by Field In Sight
(Post 10484315)
Regarding the original posters question.
On the NEO, I don't notice any difference in the initial pitch up from the runway. However, approaching the initial climb pitch attitude, the required pull back on the stick is much less. This gives a tendency to overpitch if you don't anticipate it. |
Originally Posted by pineteam
(Post 10484270)
I just checked my FCOM: For the CEO with wingtips fences and sharklets the GS logic is the same and for the NEO the GS logic is 1/3... Exactly as described in that Airbus magazine... Weird. I hope we can get an answer soon. =) |
Originally Posted by OPEN DES
(Post 10484366)
Higher residual thrust at idle on the NEO? Only flew it once. Only flew it once also haha. So can not really say. But that could be it. |
There are different angles at work. One is the sharklets. However subtle it should make some difference during flare and touchdown from winglets. It did to 747-400 from classic, the 737 guys may opine about the 737-300 and NG. The other is engines.Between the CFM and IAE engines Ceo aircraft the IAE has more thrust at lower levels while CFM has higher thrust at higher levels. This is born out by OEI ceilings which are noticeably higher for CFM. That includes residual thrust. I know of one Airline where they find hard landing occurrences are much higher on the Neo with CFM but they are comparing with their CEOs which have IAE. The Neos have higher fan diameter and higher weight and they feel it tends to drop when thrust is closed. And yet according to Airbus the Neo deceleration is less as compared to CEO. So the correct answer can only come from the Airbus. Can someone get it?
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