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I don't really have the time to read 39 pages...
can anyone sum up what the current likely cause/speculation of the crash is? |
Likely cause CFIT, reason lack of monitoring of the vertical profile by the crew and failure to take corrective action to two EGPWS warnings.
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tubby
I would just add to that: visual miscues leading pilots to believe they were OK to descend to the runway. I've flown to BHM quite a bit and always found it an ODD sort of airport...a bit in a bowl. Always thought the VOR (VULCAN) was a bit spooky and the wx was prone to t storms. On the other hand, Birmingham had the best biscuits I've ever had in my life (US Biscuits, not british). |
Originally Posted by Globalnav
I don't know about other countries, but the FAA allows an NPA such as BHM LOC 18 the be flown by non-GPS augmented airplanes 365 days of the year, weather and wind permitting.
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Originally Posted by Capn Bloggs
(Post 8027011)
Hang on. Why on earth would you fly a LOC approach in anything other than LOC? Plain old LNAV isn't going to be as accurate.
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So, if you're in a non-GPS augmented aeroplane, how would one be expected/allowed to fly a LOC approach? Surely not in LNAV?? If that is the case, the FAA has got rocks in it's head.
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Lessons Learnedhttp://lessonslearned.faa.gov/ChinaA...pit_labels.pdf
(Scroll halfway down the page until you get to A300 auto flight system.)Standard A306 cockpit fit. The button marked V/L on the FCU allows selection of LOC mode. |
Originally Posted by Capn Bloggs
(Post 8027022)
So, if you're in a non-GPS augmented aeroplane, how would one be expected/allowed to fly a LOC approach?
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Questions for the moderator.
Sir, I need to know how to find my way around this site. I made a note of 3 thread #s, (240, 700, 709 )and now that I have tried to find them again (to answer them) they are different. Also how may I quickly find a posting I made (a reply) some days ago??????
Thanks for any help you can forward. Thermostat. |
Authority gone to the head. Bet if he didn't have a gun at his side his attitude would have been much different. (more pleasant).
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At some point someone is going to say 'The pilots screwed up'.
But gosh the force is strong with this crowd, has to be a problem with the gear, can't be the pilot's, can't be in their training, can't be in their SOPs manual, no way, does not compute, does not compute, danger danger Will Robinson.. |
LNAV LOC
In the US, if you're flying a Localizer Approach, whether you have an RNAV/GPS system or not, an FMS system or not, you are required to monitor and steer the raw electronic localizer. If you desire steering commands, or an A/P coupled LOC approach, some Airbus FCUs (assume the A300 does from previous posters) have a LOC button and the Boeing MCP has a VOR/LOC button for this purpose. You may use whatever vertical flight path tricks are in your 'kit', i.e. VNAV, APP DES/P.DES, VS, FPA, D & D, or random thrashing manual flight (http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/sr...milies/eek.gif) as long as you track the raw LOC and adhere to any altitude constraints on the depicted procedure with whatever 'sophisticated' or primitive cowboy charting information you have in 'some countries'.....particularly including the MDA. But, of course this is in a B73NG, not an A306. |
Originally Posted by Teldorserious
(Post 8027135)
At some point someone is going to say 'The pilots screwed up'. But gosh the force is strong with this crowd, has to be a problem with the gear, can't be the pilot's, can't be in their training, can't be in their SOPs manual, no way, does not compute, does not compute, danger danger Will Robinson..
Let us suppose that your point is true, and "the pilots screwed up" is a finding. You still need to know why. The root causes of human error, understanding it, and mitigating it is how aviation safety gets improved. Where do you think CRM came from? Necessity, and finding out "why" an error was made. |
I suspect teldor is drawing a comparison on forum reaction to another recent undershoot event?
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Do you have some kind of special dispensation for this in the NG? Do you have a specific ref? Utilizing LNAV/VNAV with a LOC loaded, you have no raw LOC diamond on the PFD, no LOC DME on the PFD (the distances on the ND are from coded waypoint to waypoint, not equateable to LOC DME). I don't believe you'll get a LOC fail flag either under these circumstances on the PFD, should that occur, even if you have LOC tuned. How do you accomplish a B/C approach? Without IAN, you'd need to use HDG SEL. Sorry for the drift. |
Originally Posted by BOAC
(Post 8028128)
I suspect teldor is drawing a comparison on forum reaction to another recent undershoot event?
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I suspect teldor is drawing a comparison on forum reaction to another recent undershoot event? |
Even if it is proved that the crew were at fault the question must be asked what failed to get them to that fatal point. We have discussed a lot of holes in the swiss cheese but as yet we have not been shown how they routed through them and ended up on an Alabama hillside.
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Correct. None of these crews deliberately broke the rules and crashed their aeroplanes (I hope). So the trick is to work out how and why and hopefully fix it.
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