It would be important to assess different characteristics airframe to airframe, crew response, etc. do you know if any in-depth analysis is ongoing?
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Machinbird
For most operators UAS ist NOT a reportable item and therefore the NTSB would not know about it either. To write it in plain languague. UAS is existing in aviation since the introduction of speed measurement and has not been a real problem since the effects were (and I assume still are) part of basic training, starting very early in the training of the most basic aircraft. It is not over 50 cases, it is thousands of cases. But they were not reported since they are a non-event. |
I wonder if the Colonel Xavier MULOT is the same one who is on now on the staff of the French Embassy in Qatar? or is it a coincidence?? I had a google but didn't find any specific on his 'demission' - different from limoge (fired)....(accents missing in the french words).
More conspiracy stuff?? |
It is not over 50 cases, it is thousands of cases. But they were not reported since they are a non-event. If left alone after a disturbance, it will naturally seek its trimmed angle of attack. For an aircraft with neutral static stability, then it is a problem. Any deviation must be recognised and corrected early. Once AF447 had deviated by that much Altitude, it didn't matter how hard they pulled trying to regain FL 350 - it would't work. Edit: Typo: changed dynamic to static. Thanks to Clandestino for pointing it out so tactfully. |
I wonder if the Colonel Xavier MULOT is the same one who is on now on the staff of the French Embassy in Qatar? or is it a coincidence?? I had a google but didn't find any specific on his 'demission' - different from limoge (fired)....(accents missing in the french words). More conspiracy stuff?? :8 |
Originally posted by RR_NDB - On Fukushima / GE: Originally posted by alph2z - This could be useful IAS data that could be made available to the Flight management computers and pilots. Since the engines seem to have performed flawlessly at TOGA, high altitude, and at high AOA I would presume some useful data for the computers to help with valid data correlation. Originally posted by Lyman - Different airstream, dependent on demand, not ambient velocity. Originally posted by Lyman - Do you not mean "Detent"? Indent is new to me. Originally posted by Lyman - Each flight is separate from the next, do not get too comfortable with "millions of flight hours".......how many of those flights had an abnormal? That makes the odds all of a sudden a little shorter. Originally posted by Lyman - I have seven miles below me, and as far as 447 was concerned, they had only a half mile UP...push everything to max and what, then worry immediately when to stop? Why not consider UAS an impromptu TOD? Stabilize in a shallow descent, and start trouble shooting... ICE might be a wild card as to AoA vanes, but in truth, don't you think a shallow descent at idle might work, if not, then 60? If fuel is an issue, you may not be ETOPS compliant in the first place, and .....? Now I know you will say, but they need only five degrees, and 100 percent, or a bit less, but isn't it more judicious to demand less of the airframe and engines whilst troubleshooting? Less chance of the "crazy speed?" if one can find five, can one find 0? It brackets cruise AoA? Originally posted by Lyman - Wait, do I have a choice? Cost, performance, and reliability? I build airliners, I choose cost, and erm, cost... |
Originally Posted by alph2z
How many heated pitots are there on the upstream of each engine ? 1 or 2 ?
Note that in the Air Caraibes UAS event the discrepancy between the aircraft pitot pressure and the engine P2 caused the ECAM message "ENG 1(2) EPR MODE FAULT". The GE engine is N1-controlled. |
Hi Hazelnuts39,
Your memory regarding the FADEC & ADIRUs 1 & 2 is correct. The suggestion of somehow using an array of pitot tubes in the engine nacelle as a backup to the normal 3 fuselage mounted pitots would apply to future developed aircraft and engines. I would guess it would depend on the ability to both correlate and then integrate them into the overall aircraft monitoring system. It would require extensive testing to determine if this "backup" system would be operational and not develop icing should the normal pitots fail for openers. I do suspect searching for a solution is being worked in the industry to prevent pitot problems leading to instances of UAS on aircraft being developed or in the conception stage. |
Control/trim law bias for AoA or speed
Thanks Turbine for the 777 poop.
Seems Boeing likes a plane that trims for speed/AoA versus one gee corrected for attitude/climb angle. And the pilot has to command a different trim speed/AoA if I read the data correctly. No automatic THS to maintain commanded gee. Interesting that pulling/pushing the stick ( stick/yoke, what the hell) against the trim setting has increased force. So there is an artificial force feedback, huh? I was also impressed with a fairly simple reversion sequence when the primary laws go away. The stall protection implementation also seems very intuitive to pilots that did not grow up learning to "monitor" the Airbus system do its thing. Hmmmmm..... Again, thanks Turbine. |
A pilot should be able to fly any aircraft without needing training. Yes the training is good to teach the differences but no competent pilot should be required to know how to recognize and recover from a stall. That was taught in the first 5 hours of instruction. It is so basic, lower the nose and regain airspeed. AF had two pilots who couldn't do that. I am sure the captain could have but by the time he entered the cockpit the PF had screwed it up so bad he was even confused.
We need to not let automated airplanes make pilots monitors. They both forgot how to fly watching the magenta line. |
Bubbers, stop being dismayed about the pilots and start being outraged at the system that trained them and placed them there.
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TT, I agree with your statement. This wasn't a problem when I started flying. It is now. Competent pilots were the only people hired when I was. Now with automation competent pilots are too expensive so they hire the cheapest pilots out of pilot school they can find. Sad but true.
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Embry Riddle pumps out pilots with no experience as soon as Daddy can pay for it. Now they are qualified for a 24,000 a year job with a mere 200,000 help from Daddy. A friend of mine just funded this exact thing.
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TD....
Quote: Originally posted by Lyman - Different airstream, dependent on demand, not ambient velocity. "Nonsense, see above plus I suggested this to you a few threads ago." "The suggestion of somehow using an array of pitot tubes in the engine NACELLE as a backup to the normal 3 fuselage mounted pitots would apply to FUTURE developed aircraft and engines. I would guess it would depend on the ability to both correlate and then integrate them into the overall aircraft monitoring system. It would require extensive testing to determine if this "backup" system would be operational and not develop icing should the normal pitots fail for openers/B] Are you so eager to utilize the word "nonsense", that you miss the accuracy contained in my post? By the way, I did not correct your spelling of the word "intent". The word was spelled correctly. I merely asked if you had meant "Detent" instead.... My original comment was based on data you enlarge in your retort to my succinct post. I am full of nonsense, but you think enough of it to widen the prose used to expand on it? What's up widdat...? |
Originally Posted by Turbine D
I would not think reducing power and going down would be the thing to do as the speed would rapidly increase leading to a speed-speed warning.
It has been done by a few crews. Idle + pitch on the horizon or slighly below do just fine. Absolutely no risk of overspeed. Just like a normal descent from cruise level. There are times when following directions that, or should be, the basis of the word "Aviate" are really important. When it was getting obvious that UAS events in altitude were adding up, it would have been very wise to simulate such scenario during recurrent training : This, is what you may encounter, there are all the associated ecam and alarms, that's what your PFD may look like : THIS IS WHAT YOU NEED TO DO. I am a bit disapointed we still have not done it in my outfit Everything is so much easier when you have been properly demonstrated once. |
Why climb or descend with UAS? Why not stay level, use the altimiter and VSI to maintain altitude? Why bust through everybody elses altitude? I only flew Boeings and MD's but no procedure required changing altitude in cruise because of UAS. Every aircraft has an UAS checklist, get it out and stay level. Just my opinion because I stayed away from the Airbus.
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Originally Posted by CONF iture
Probably also a sudden drop of indicated altitude - I don't think they realized they had to deal with an UAS scenario - Among the reported events, is it possible no one called for the UAS memory item, and no one deselected the FD ?
From the Air Caraibes memo (my translation): "Phase 4, crew reaction Starting at 22:22:59 during 1m26s the indications of CAS, Mach and altitude are not reliable. The PF flies manually without FD, without FPV, and without A/THR. In that period the various warnings on ECAM, Master Warning, Master Caution, Cavalry Charge, Single Chime, and STALL are numerous. In this extremely charged context, the crew concentrates thus on the piloting of F-OFDF and the application of the checklist QRH 2.21 UNRELIABLE SPEED INDICATION. (...). " I am a bit disapointed we still have not done it in my outfit Everything is so much easier when you have been properly demonstrated once. |
It is not being addressed in training as their are no algorithm's in the sims for high altitude handling. ( most only up to 14000ft) which risks negative training.
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no algorithm's in the sims for high altitude handling
.. a matter of tweaking the box's software. |
Originally Posted by HN39
Is it possible that a pilot sees the IAS drop from 274 kt to 52 kt in a matter of seconds, and not consider the IAS to be unreliable?
The last time we did practice a scenario of UAS at low level, the initial clue that something was wrong came under the warning : WINDSHEAR WINDSHEAR WINDSHEAR My airspeed was getting in the red, which made sense to me in case of windshear. As per SOP my call was "WINDSHEAR TOGA" which implies to follow the FD, not to turn them OFF. That's only when I heard the instructor word : "eh guys ..." that I took a quick look at the other PFD and could remember that one of the exercises for the day was UAS not WINDSHEAR ... The appropriate call was then only made : "UNRELIABLE SPEED" This is how things can get confusing sometimes.
Originally Posted by IcePack
It is not being addressed in training as their are no algorithm's in the sims for high altitude handling. ( most only up to 14000ft) which risks negative training.
All the concentration and energy on aviate - This is not necessarily easy as the multiple warnings don't seem to stop. This could be like suddenly switching from a walk in the park to seat in a formula one at 300 km/h |
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