Originally Posted by grity the stick move of first 10 sec. after AP disconect 2:10:07 --- 2:10:18 the moves are more or less horizontal so I think he did not realise that he pulled, just fight with the rolling ship....left right left right left right.... realising that he had no longer correct speed at this time Initial grip to the SS was with the intention to counter the roll to the right. Thereby he overcontrolled or he chased the roll like in an PIO. During each reversal from left to right or vv PF induced a pitch change as well. The initial grip had also a big NU input, which brought the plane of the later left / right movements considerably in the NU region, with only two considerable ND inputs but only enough to reach the neutral SS pitch position. The assumption, that those NU inputs where associated with the aim to climb to a higher FL is IMHO obsolete (i didn´t believe in it anyway). PF might have intended to counter a sinking tendency as described by hazelnuts39, but i meanwhile doubt that. The whole mess might as well have started with - not being prepared for the situation - being surprised by the dropout of AP + ATHR, - PF gripping SS in a hastily and unsuitable mannor - and thereby implementing unwanted and anneccessary steering inputs - chasing the roll and missing the pitch (PNF might have noticed it) - and loosing instrument cross check and SA all together - and PNF on the LH seat not seeing the need to take over - or not willing due to expierience in LH seat LH SS - stall warning triggered the TOGA initiation in PF´s intinctive reaction - and pitch control stayed as bad as before. Was the seat position not suitable for the correct operation of SS? Training issues had been mentioned month before already. Unfortunately the graphs in the report are not good quality, i hope they show up some time in a higher resolution. There i a lot of info in them, and we will have lots of discussions about them. In Phase 3, there are a few points where vertical speed goes close to zero, in one time at 02:14:15 (page 113 of the report) and also some 17 sec. before that it even shows positive climb. Other times descent rate is more than 15.000 fpm. Do we know, that those values are valid indications or are those values wrong? It will be much enlighting to understand the behaviour of the crew in phase 3, because most probably their reactions based on things they saw. If those above mentioned VV values are correct, then they saw a drastic increase of descent rate when pitching down and a reduction of descent rate when pitching up with TOGA, with the expectation to get the ship flying again. We know that they had been stalled completely and that this increase in descent rate was a necessary tradeoff to achieve recovery, they probably didn´t. |
Originally Posted by CONF iture
(Post 6610013)
THS trace is absent from page 31 and 32 graphics ... Why is that ?
ELEVATORS traces are also absent from those graphics ... Why is that ? I'm therefore presuming it can be inferred from the statement that the aircraft performed as designed that the control surfaces responded to the commands given in the correct manner, for which you'd need to get your Airbus manuals out to correlate. Remember that this is an interim rather than a final report, and that hopefully the FDR traces you would like to see will be included in that document. |
Operations Attitude a Causal Factor
vanHorck
Whilst you are essentially correct, you are at risk of being side-lined as an old-school pilot who refuses to see the advantages of modern technology.... To further enhance your argument: There are now automatic messages for pilots exceeding the narrowest of tolerances during hand flying, resulting in gentle phone calls from ops to the PF and/or the captain urging them at the very lest caution if not nudging them to use the automation rather than flying by hand. This clearly results in less hand flying than would otherwise be the case. If they are so insistent that automation should always be used then perhaps the airlines should order fully automated aircraft. Then they can dispense with the expensive instrument monitors that they appear to want in the cockpit. |
Longitudinal sidestick deflection (left/right), elevators, THS 2:09:00 - 2:14:30 (page 114).
http://img846.imageshack.us/img846/4897/screen01v.png |
Old Carthusian,
Let's not fight, read my last sentence. Many lives have been saved through automation so I am all for it and a bus fan as well, but I dislike the (in my view insufficient hand-fly) training and I dislike even more the reluctance of (some) carriers to allow their pilots to hand fly both in the cruise as well as in the approach in varying circumstances. Ian W It's easily checked.... Ask the FO's in your fleet what percentage of captains allows them to hand fly in anything but the smoothest CAVOK weather (better even is a captain who asks his FO to hand fly), although I suspect it varies from airline to airline (and I am certainly not implying AF have such a policy as I don't know) |
What's that smell?
Evidently OZONE. Noted by the crew, one is allowed to associate OZONE with WRG.....? That would explain the dire need to recover the avionics bay. Can anyone devise a way to recover an a/c via Inertial Cues? Those boys from the Segway scooter should give it a go. |
Originally Posted by bearfoil
(Post 6610236)
What's that smell?
Evidently OZONE. Noted by the crew, one is allowed to associate OZONE with WRG.....? Real avionics faults stink, but not of ozone..... Since ther was a mention of St.Elmo's fire, that sounds as a more plausible explanation..... |
Going back to link 959 and subsequent discussions:
Now, I understand also why the BEA would like to have the whole scene with all pannels filmed as many things said all along are related to instruments and very hard to guess what it was exactly. Thoughts. |
Citing a "more plausible" explanation than another somehow gives one the right to be insulting?
Electric motors produce OZONE, as does welding, Heating, Lightning, etc. Sparking of any kind produces OZONE. Dismissing causes other than Saint Elmo's Fire strikes me as more consistent with, erm.....ignorance. Can you please refrain from personal insult? |
Bear, I don't think CJ was trying to be insulting, but I can understand his frustration. Hanging on to every last thing you can trying to prove a hardware/software fault is one thing, but spamming two threads with the same post smacks of desperation.
|
"...demonstrate your ignorance....."
What is it with this thread?
The whole series on the search for the truth about AF447 was one of the highest standing ones EVER with magnificent contributions from many mm43 just to name one. So please let's have respect, and continue the good work with debate not insults. I am sure I speak on behalf of many. |
I tried to accommodate the different fora with a question I thought more consistent with the foundation.
I am not desperate to prove anything. On the contrary, I am trying to unstick some narrow thinking that seems to be herding itself into the corral being built by partisans. The BOEING 787 recently had a serious inflight electrical Malfunction/Fire. The a/c was nearly lost. Do you know what those on board were breathing? You talk of frustration? Tedium is listening to the same old suspects gather around the 'B'anner and sing the 'A'nthem. take care friend |
Originally Posted by vanHorck
The whole series on the search for the truth about AF447 was one of the highest standing ones EVER
|
Originally Posted by bearfoil
(Post 6610307)
Can you please refrain from personal insult?
|
Christiaan
You are not moderator, and have no business 'judging' the relative 'purity' of anyone's input. You have control issues, my friend. 'I' is for ignore....... |
Originally Posted by bearfoil
(Post 6610326)
The BOEING 787 recently had a serious inflight electrical Malfunction/Fire.
PS. CJ is a former Concorde engineer, so I'd think *very* carefully before tangling with him. [EDIT : Misunderstood KBPsen's post - my apologies, sir.] |
Thanks, DW !
Oh, and, bearfoil, if it wasn't for your pollution showing up in other peoples posts, I'd have pushed the "I" button long ago. |
CJ
Now it's alliances and feudal warfare? Again, it is not for you to 'judge'. How about principles, rather than personalities? You are indeed a valued resource here, and my goal is not to annoy. Doze, B787 has neglected a serious flaw in their certification program, and no one notices. Airbus clearly has ignored some critical flaws in their product's performance relative to operator proficiency. That's called an opinion, and is neither desperate, not personal. |
unofficial CVR transcript translation - plus VS
Based on Lemurian's post #958, in turn based on spagiola's #940:
I've added the synthetic voice (VS) announcements and stall warnings, from pages 91-104 of the report in French. I wanted to see where the stall warnings occurred in relation to the pilots' conversation, but it adds some other info as well -- eg, warnings about dual inputs toward the end, and the final "pull up"s. And there's a puzzling (to me anyway) VS announcement at 2 h 12 min 17: « Priority right » Just before that, the column of notes about FDR parameters has: 2 h 12 min 16 Le pilote en place OPL prend la priorité. The pilot in place OPL takes precedence. According to the key on page 89, "OPL" is the PF: Copilote en place droite (PF) pilotant avec le manche OPL Was the "PF" (sitting in place OPL) not actually the one with "la priorité" up until that moment?? Anyway, on with the unofficial transcript translation: ===== gpc62: Added synthetic voice (VS) announcements. A few other minor additions/trivial corrections. Lemurian: To spagiola I took the liberty to proof-read your very good translation and this is how it is : spagiola: I'm a native French speaker and have a PPL, but have no further relevant qualifications, so caveat emptor. ===== 2 h 10 min 05 Cavalry charge (Alarme de déconnexion du pilote automatique) Cavalry charge (Autopilot disconnect alarm) 2 h 10 min 06 PF: J’ai les commandes I have control 2 h 10 min 09 PF: Ignition start Ignition start 02 h 10 min 10.4 : VS : « Stall, stall » (sans cricket) VS: "Stall, stall" (without cricket) 2 h 10 min 11 PNF: Qu’est ce que c’est que ça ? What's that ? 2 h 10 min 13 VS : « Stall, S » VS: "Stall, S" 2 h 10 min 14 PF: On n’a pas une bonne… On n’a pas une bonne annonce de… We don't have a good... we don't have a good indication of ... 2 h 10 min 17 PNF: On a perdu les les les vitesses alors… engine thrust A T H R engine lever thrust We've lost the the the speeds so ... engine thrust A T H R (off) engine lever thrust 2 h 10 min 18 PF: … de vitesse ... of speed 2 h 10 min 22 PNF: Alternate law protections Alternate law protections 2 h 10 min 24 PNF: Attends on est en train de perdre… Wait we're losing... 2 h 10 min 25 PNF: Wing anti-ice Wing anti-ice 2 h 10 min 27 to 2 h 10 min 31 PNF: Fais attention à ta vitesse Fais attention à ta vitesse Watch your speed Watch your speed PF: Okay, okay okay je redescends ok ok ok I'm going back down PNF: Tu stabilises stabilize (“stay there”) PF: Ouais Yeah PNF: Tu redescends You're going back down 2 h 10 min 33 PNF: Selon les trois tu montes donc tu redescends According to the three you're going up, so you go back down (meaning the three vertical speed indicators... ) 2 h 10 min 35 PF: D’accord Agreed 2 h 10 min 36 PNF: T’es à ... Redescends You're at ... go back down ! PF: C’est parti on (re)descend On our way we're going (back) down 2 h 10 min 39 to 2 h 10 min 46 PNF: Je te mets en en A T T I'm putting you in in A T T 2 h 10 min 42 PF: On est en ouais on est en climb We're in yeah we're in climb 2 h 10 min 49 PNF: (…) il est où euh ? Uh, where is he? 2 h 10 min 51 VS : « Stall, stall » + cricket en continu Stall alarm starts [continues until 2 h 11 min 45] 2 h 10 min 56 PF: (TOGA) (TOGA) 2 h 11 PNF: Surtout essaie de toucher le moins possible les commandes en en latéral hein Above all, try to touch the controls as little as possible in in lateral, hey ?! 2 h 11 min 03 PF: Je suis en TOGA hein ? I'm in TOGA, no ? 2 h 11 min 06 PNF: (…) il vient ou pas Is he coming or not ? 2 h 11 min 21 PF: On a pourtant les moteurs qu’est-ce qui se passe (…) ? We've got the engines yet (nothing is happening...),. what's going on (...)? 2 h 11 min 32 PF: (…) je n’ai plus le contrôle de l’avion là J’ai plus du tout le contrôle de l’avion I no longer have control of the plane; I no longer have any control at all of the plane 2 h 11 min 38 PNF: Commande à gauche Controls to the left 2 h 11 min 41 PF: J’ai l’impression (qu’on a de) la vitesse I have the impression (that we have) some speed 2 h 11 min 43 [Bruit d’ouverture de la porte du cockpit] [Sound of the cockpit door opening] CAP: Eh qu’est-ce que vous (faites) ? Hey what are you doing? PNF: Qu’est-ce qui se passe ? Je ne sais pas je sais pas ce qui se passe What's happening? I don't know I don't know what's happening 2 h 11 min 45 Fin de l’alarme « Stall, stall » + cricket Stall alarm stops 2 h 11 min 52 CAP: Alors tiens prends prends ça So here take take that 2 h 11 min 53 VS : « Stall, stall » + cricket incomplet VS: "Stall, stall" + cricket, incomplete 2 h 11 min 55 VS : « Stall, stall » + cricket incomplet VS: "Stall, stall" + cricket, incomplete 2 h 11 min 58 PF: J’ai un problème c’est que j’ai plus de vario là I have a problem it's that I no longer have vertical speed CAP: D’accord OK PF: J’ai plus aucune indication I no longer have any indication 2 h 12 min 04 to 2 h 12 min 07 PF: J’ai l’impression qu’on a une vitesse de fou non qu’est-ce que vous en pensez ? I have the impression that we have some crazy speed, don’t we ?.. what do you think ? 2 h 12 min 07 PNF: Non surtout ne ne (les) sors pas No, in any case, don't don't extend them VS : « Stall, stall » 2 h 12 min 10 VS : « Stall, stall » + cricket incomplet 2 h 12 min 13 PNF: Qu’est-ce que tu en penses qu’est-ce que tu en penses, qu’est-ce qu’il faut faire ? What do you think ?what do you think ? what do we have to do? 2 h 12 min 15 to 2 h 12 min 19 CAP: Là je sais pas là ça descend I don't know we're going down 2 h 12 min 17 VS : « Priority right » 2 h 12 min 19 to 2 h 12 min 45 PF: Là c’est bon là on serait revenu les ailes à plat, non il veut (pas) there ! that's good ! we'd be back to wings level, no he (doesn't) wan't to CAP: Les ailes à plat ... l’horizon l’horizon de secours Wings level ... the horizon the backup horizon PNF: L’horizon The horizon 2 h 12 min 26 PNF: La vitesse ? The speed? 2 h 12 min 27 PNF: Tu montes ... You're going up ... VS : « Stall, stall » PNF: Tu descends descends descends descends go down go down go down go down 2 h 12 min 30 PF: Je suis en train de descendre là ? Am I going down? PNF: Descend ! Go down 2 h 12 min 32 CAP: Non tu montes là No you're going up, now 2 h 12 min 33 PF: Là je monte okay alors on descend There I'm going up ok so let's go down 2 h 12 min 34 VS : « Stall, stall » + cricket incomplet 2 h 12 min 39 PF: Okay on est en TOGA ok, we're in TOGA 2 h 12 min 40 VS : « Stall, stall » + cricket en continu Stall alarm starts [continues until 2 h 12 min 46] 2 h 12 min 42 PF: En alti on a quoi là ? In alti[tude] we're at what, here? 2 h 12 min 44 CAP: (…) C’est pas possible It's not possible 2 h 12 min 45 PF: En alti on a quoi ? In alti[tude] we're at what ? [*** during the following 19 seconds of speech, the stall alarm stops for 3 seconds, and then restarts for another 8 seconds. The transcript does not indicate the exact times for the pilots' speech, or where these stops and starts occur in relation to the speech: ***] 2 h 12 min 46 Fin de l’alarme « Stall, stall » + cricket Stall alarm stops 2 h 12 min 49 VS : « Stall, stall » + cricket en continu Stall alarm starts 2 h 12 min 57 Fin de l’alarme « Stall, stall » + cricket Stall alarm stops [*** now here's the pilots' speech for that time interval: ***] 2 h 12 min 45 to 2 h 13 min 04 PNF: Comment ça en altitude ? What do you mean in altitude? PF: Ouais ouais ouais j’descends là non ? yeah yeah yeah i'm going down now, no? PNF: Là tu descends oui You're going down now, yes CAP: Hé tu ... tu es en… Mets mets les ailes horizontales hey you ... you're in ... put put the wings level PNF: Mets les ailes horizontales Put the wings level C’est ce que je cherche à faire That's what I'm trying to do CAP: Mets les ailes horizontales Put the wings level 2 h 12 min 59 PF: Je suis à fond à… avec du gauchissement I'm at the limit of the stick... to the left CAP: Le palonnier Rudder pedals 2 h 13 min 23 : VS : « Dual input » 2 h 13 min 25 PF: Qu’est-ce qu’y… comment ça se fait qu’on continue à descendre à fond là? What is... how come we're continuing to descend so fast? 2 h 13 min 28 PNF: Essaye de trouver ce que tu peux faire avec tes commandes là-haut Les primaires et cetera Try to see what you can do with your controls up there. The primaries etc 2 h 13 min 32 PF: au niveau cent At level 100 2 h 13 min 36 PF: Neuf mille pieds 9000 feet 2 h 13 min 38 CAP: Doucement avec le palonnier là Easy with the rudder 2 h 13 min 39 PNF: Remonte remonte remonte remonte Climb climb climb climb (literally, "remonte" is "climb back up") [*** another sequence where the transcript does not splice the VS and the pilots' speech together: ***] 2 h 13 min 41 : VS : « Dual input » 2 h 13 min 43 : VS : « Dual input » 2 h 13 min 45 : VS : « Dual input » 2 h 13 min 47 : VS : « Dual input » 2 h 13 min 40 PF: Mais je suis à fond à cabrer depuis tout à l’heure But I've been pulling to the back stop for a good while CAP: Non non non ne remonte pas No no no don't climb back up PNF: Alors descend Go down, then 2 h 13 min 45 PNF: Alors donne-moi les commandes à moi les commandes So give the me controls. I have control PF: Vas-y tu as les commandes on est en TOGA toujours hein Go on, you have control. We're still in TOGA, right ? 2 h 13 min 55 VS : « Stall, stall » + cricket en continu Stall alarm starts 2 h 14 min 03 Fin de l’alarme « Stall, stall » + cricket Stall alarm stops 2 h 14 min 05 CAP: Attention tu cabres là Watch it, you're pitching up PNF: Je cabre ? I'm pitching up? PF: Ben il faudrait on est à quatre mille pieds Well, we should, we're at 4000 feet 2 h 14 min 17 VS : « Sink rate » VS : « Pull up » (3x) 2 h 14 min 18 CAP: Allez tire Go on, pull PF: Allez on tire on tire on tire on tire Go on, we're pulling we're pulling we're pulling we're pulling ! 2 h 14 min 21 to end VS : « Pull up » (4x) 2 h 14 min 26 to end CAP: (Dix) degrés d’assiette (Ten) degrees of trim 2 h 14 min 28.4 [Fin des enregistrements] [End of data] ===== |
Originally Posted by bearfoil
(Post 6610396)
Now it's alliances and feudal warfare?
You are indeed a valued resource here, and my goal is not to annoy. Doze, B787 has neglected a serious flaw in their certification program, and no one notices. Airbus clearly has ignored some critical flaws in their product's performance relative to operator proficiency. That's called an opinion, and is neither desperate, not personal. A note to anyone who wants to bring up Ziegler and concierges again - that was a *very long time ago* - please don't! The "race to the bottom" is a corporate disease that affects many more industries than aviation, and automation (and Airbus's role in the advances made within) is a factor, not a culprit. |
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